[Aptorian]

Gorefest, on 23 January 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

Meanwhile, day 33 of the shutdown? Wow, never seen anything like it. It seems bizarre that this is even possible. Is there any other country (non-dictatorship) in the world where the entire federal machine can just be shut down over political infighting? It seems like an insane setup. What is the rationale for such a construction? I must confess that my knowledge of American politics is fairly superficial.

I think it's a flaw based on thr US electing presidents and governors instead of voting for parties.

In Denmark and a lot of countries, if you can't get a majority vote for the years financing then you'll get a reelection. It motivates everybody to get their shit in order

[amphibian]

End of Disc One, on 23 January 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

There were no victims in the incident because there wasn't even an incident to speak of. It was a group of Black Hebrew Israelites taunting the kids (which they invite by wearing the MAGA hats) and the kids clapping back by chanting. Native Americans walked up to the kids to diffuse the situation, and Sandmann just stood there, seemingly to not escalate it. This was all a nonissue until the video went viral and the media ran with it, and there were no victims until after that. You can say "rich white people don't get a pass" and you can hate the system that raised them all you want. But I can't support this 16 year old individual taking the brunt of the hate and having to fear for his safety. I understand the anger everyone feels at today's political climate. But I think it's being harmfully misdirected here.

The Covington kids were going around harassing people - women and people who weren't white.

I agree that death threats shouldn't be sent to the kids, but there is a TON of room for push back on their racist, sexist, and harassing actions. There is video and audio of those actions readily available - QuickTidal posted some already.

What they did is extremely wrong and not discussing that wrongness is to aid and abet racism. They don't have to be wearing Klan hoods or assaulting black people to be racist. They don't have to be domestic abusers to be sexist.

These kids learned this from their parents and the near utter lack of repercussions for their shitty actions. The repercussions should not include death threats, but they should at minimum be questioned about their intent, shown that their actions are wrong, and probably pushed to do some sort of actions of reparation to those they've hurt.

[amphibian]

Gorefest, on 23 January 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

Meanwhile, day 33 of the shutdown? Wow, never seen anything like it. It seems bizarre that this is even possible. Is there any other country (non-dictatorship) in the world where the entire federal machine can just be shut down over political infighting? It seems like an insane setup. What is the rationale for such a construction? I must confess that my knowledge of American politics is fairly superficial.

The entire federal government is not shut down. Some programs/departments have funding until the end of September (like the Social Security Administration, which funds my work). Others have appropriations running out now or have run out. The federal courts have funding that they've managed to stretch to last until the end of January, upon which they will partially shut down.

A NYTimes article from January 16 said that the average federal worker who has not been paid during this shutdown has missed almost $6,000 in salary. That number has increased over the past week. Considering that most people have less than a month's worth of savings and something like 45% of Americans cannot afford a $400 emergency payment at any given point, this is catastrophic.

I would be able to scrape together 5k from my huge family as a one time thing, but it would put most of us on the brink of insolvency. I have a huge family that would do that for me, but most people don't have that kind of network to rely on. How do they eat? How do they pay rent or the mortgage? How do they continue to go to work bc they cannot strike or take vacation? How do they pay for childcare? How do they afford transportation? The questions and terrible choices go on and on.

The knock on effects are huge - all of the businesses and people and arrangements that rely on this money and those federal workers' work are now damaged too. Maybe irreparably.

The GOP is killing the country. That's clear as day now to many people.

[Tiste Simeon]

Gorefest, on 23 January 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

Meanwhile, day 33 of the shutdown? Wow, never seen anything like it. It seems bizarre that this is even possible. Is there any other country (non-dictatorship) in the world where the entire federal machine can just be shut down over political infighting? It seems like an insane setup. What is the rationale for such a construction? I must confess that my knowledge of American politics is fairly superficial.

Is it still a non-dictatorship cos honestly I'm not sure anymore...

[Tiste Simeon]

amphibian, on 23 January 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 23 January 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

There were no victims in the incident because there wasn't even an incident to speak of. It was a group of Black Hebrew Israelites taunting the kids (which they invite by wearing the MAGA hats) and the kids clapping back by chanting. Native Americans walked up to the kids to diffuse the situation, and Sandmann just stood there, seemingly to not escalate it. This was all a nonissue until the video went viral and the media ran with it, and there were no victims until after that. You can say "rich white people don't get a pass" and you can hate the system that raised them all you want. But I can't support this 16 year old individual taking the brunt of the hate and having to fear for his safety. I understand the anger everyone feels at today's political climate. But I think it's being harmfully misdirected here.

The Covington kids were going around harassing people - women and people who weren't white.

I agree that death threats shouldn't be sent to the kids, but there is a TON of room for push back on their racist, sexist, and harassing actions. There is video and audio of those actions readily available - QuickTidal posted some already.

What they did is extremely wrong and not discussing that wrongness is to aid and abet racism. They don't have to be wearing Klan hoods or assaulting black people to be racist. They don't have to be domestic abusers to be sexist.

These kids learned this from their parents and the near utter lack of repercussions for their shitty actions. The repercussions should not include death threats, but they should at minimum be questioned about their intent, shown that their actions are wrong, and probably pushed to do some sort of actions of reparation to those they've hurt.

The MAGA hat is also this generations Klan Hood as well as Swastika.

[amphibian]

I don't agree with that level of symbology for the red MAGA hat at this time. The Nazi swastika is associated with the death of millions and the reshaping of the entire world. The Klan hood represents the violent extension of the subjugation of non white people for centuries.

The MAGA hat means certainly the sharing of at least some racist views and the endorsement of fascist and fictional narratives and actions, but it is too soon to put it on the level of those two powerful symbols of harm.

The Nazi swastika is so powerful a symbol of hate and harm that the Hindu swastika (the original form of the Nazi edited and flipped version) usage has dropped considerably. I had a reaction to and many question regarding the Hindu original in a temple when I was a seven year old child because I didn't know of the original and the differences at the time.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 23 January 2019 - 04:37 PM, said:

I don't agree with that level of symbology for the red MAGA hat at this time. The Nazi swastika is associated with the death of millions and the reshaping of the entire world. The Klan hood represents the violent extension of the subjugation of non white people for centuries.

The MAGA hat means certainly the sharing of at least some racist views and the endorsement of fascist and fictional narratives and actions, but it is too soon to put it on the level of those two powerful symbols of harm.

The Nazi swastika is so powerful a symbol of hate and harm that the Hindu swastika (the original form of the Nazi edited and flipped version) usage has dropped considerably. I had a reaction to and many question regarding the Hindu original in a temple when I was a seven year old child because I didn't know of the original and the differences at the time.

Funny thing Amph, the swastika is quite widespread in everyday design here now. Saw it in some grillwork only the other day.

Frankly I feel that Hindus should not drop the Swastika at all. Its misuse by one monster for 3 decades should not be allowed to destroy an ancient practice that emphasized on peace, prosperity and happiness.

[amphibian]

Here in the US, most temples do not prominently feature the swastika and do them in removable paint when they're present. The potential for a big fuss is too high to do permanent and public swastika even though Hindus have used it for thousands of years.

I don't see it in the newer places in Nepal either - except as painted in certain spots sometimes. Older places have them in the design/ornamental work of course.

I think the linkage is going to be too strong to have it any other way for a couple hundred years yet. Then it'll fade.

[Macros]

That's sweet, you think the world will be here in 100 years

[Tiste Simeon]

Virgin of High House Bachelor, on 23 January 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

I don’t agree with very much of the things you say but on that I do.

It’s certainly a great thing for Anti Trumpers to latch on to though that I find kinda concerning.

Incidentally that's more concern than you showed when actual Nazis were walking American streets but ʅ(ツ)ʃ

Amph I want suggesting that the hats and the Swastikas/Klan Hoods have the same historical symbolism because obviously, as you say, there's a death toll associated with the other two which the Trump administration hasn't got (yet, though the children dying in ICE detention is a start).

I merely meant that wearing that aligns you with a lifestyle/ideology similar to those worn by the Nazis and the Klan. If I see that hat I'm going to think you're like them in your thinking.

[worry]

Agree with you Tiste. Obviously those particular symbols are associated with the outcomes -- the end game -- of genocide, and for good reason, while the MAGA hat isn't. But "Make America Great Again" is an ethnic cleansing slogan just as sure as the 14 words are, and there's no reason not to call it for what it obviously is. It's not a coincidence (at all, period) that the proliferation of MAGA gear is happening at the same time confederate symbols (the flags, the statues) are finally getting (lukewarm) national pushback. And more than that, it's the same in-group/out-group message -- and threat -- being made (which I believe amph totally recognizes, given the mention of the infamous responses to diner sit-ins of the '60s). So it's important to keep perspective, but part of that perspective is acknowledging that these kids are being given not just a pass, but a groveling vindication, by a media and a nation that worships at the alter of the white male smirk.

[Malankazooie]

Oh Snap! Pelosi puts the smack down. Maybe Trump can do the State of Union address in one of those fake boardroom sets from Celebrity Apprentice? He can have Ivanka to his left and DJTJ to his right and they can nod approvingly while he lies about how he's making America great.

[worry]

Good. Trump's "compromise" offer was worse than anything they've suggested before, because it was full of Stephen Miller wishlist items meant to turn off Dems completely. In other words, it was designed to fail, designed to be rejected, so that Trump could use the SOTU to recast Dems as the cause of the shutdown.

[worry]

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 23 January 2019 - 07:26 PM, said:

Virgin of High House Bachelor, on 23 January 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

I don't agree with very much of the things you say but on that I do.

It's certainly a great thing for Anti Trumpers to latch on to though that I find kinda concerning.

Incidentally that's more concern than you showed when actual Nazis were walking American streets but ʅ(ツ)ʃ

Amph I want suggesting that the hats and the Swastikas/Klan Hoods have the same historical symbolism because obviously, as you say, there's a death toll associated with the other two which the Trump administration hasn't got (yet, though the children dying in ICE detention is a start).

I merely meant that wearing that aligns you with a lifestyle/ideology similar to those worn by the Nazis and the Klan. If I see that hat I'm going to think you're like them in your thinking.

In no way do I mean to detract from the gravity of these words, but I misread this as Ian Cameron Esslemont detention.

[Gorefest]

Maark Abbott, on 24 January 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:

In no way do I mean to detract from the gravity of these words, but I misread this as Ian Cameron Esslemont detention.

Same here. Thought they were making people sit through repeated readings of OST and BnB.

[Morgoth]

worry, on 23 January 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

I'm not so sure that the Venezuela one is a bad thing.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 23 January 2019 - 07:59 PM, said:

Agree with you Tiste. Obviously those particular symbols are associated with the outcomes -- the end game -- of genocide, and for good reason, while the MAGA hat isn't. But "Make America Great Again" is an ethnic cleansing slogan just as sure as the 14 words are, and there's no reason not to call it for what it obviously is. It's not a coincidence (at all, period) that the proliferation of MAGA gear is happening at the same time confederate symbols (the flags, the statues) are finally getting (lukewarm) national pushback. And more than that, it's the same in-group/out-group message -- and threat -- being made (which I believe amph totally recognizes, given the mention of the infamous responses to diner sit-ins of the '60s). So it's important to keep perspective, but part of that perspective is acknowledging that these kids are being given not just a pass, but a groveling vindication, by a media and a nation that worships at the alter of the white male smirk.

Covington students complain that they were forced to stop wearing blackface at basketball games:

https://www.thedaily...Dy_GGQT_Zcy8s_4

Meanwhile, since membership in Nazi groups is banned in Germany, German racists have been joining the KKK:


'The Klan isn’t banned in Germany, but its symbols are. A German law aimed at crushing neo-Nazi propaganda also outlaws the Klan’s trademark burning cross, alongside white power symbols, ISIS flags, and symbols of Germany’s Communist Party.But the raid on 12 suspected KKK strongholds last week surfaced Klan cross T-shirts and patches (sometimes combined with Nazi imagery), alongside a hoard of guns, knives, throwing stars, swords, and collapsing batons. The Klan recruited online, financed itself with monthly membership fees, and was planning to arm itself further, Germany authorities said, adding that members promoted “violent fantasies.”
[...] In 2012, two German police officers were discovered to have kept their jobs, despite being revealed as Klansmen. [...] Of the German Klan members he’s interviewed, “all former members share a fascination with the U.S., the U.S. Klan and U.S. history"'.


https://www.thedaily...ermany?ref=home

[worry]

Morgoth, on 24 January 2019 - 09:20 AM, said:

I'm not so sure that the Venezuela one is a bad thing.

I think you can have empathy for suffering Venezuelans and even despise Maduro (the same way you'd despise, say, Saddam Hussein), without believing that the US and its allies installing a sympathetic right wing government in yet another Latin American country (this one oil rich, how about that!) is a palatable option. This is neocon 101 and (man-made) disaster capitalism, and apparently in 2019 it still works.

I won't pretend to be an expert though, and I don't hope for worst to happen. Guess we'll wait and see if this turns out better than every other time we've done it.

This post has been edited by worry: 24 January 2019 - 09:52 PM

[worry]

On another note, there are growing rumblings about organizing a general strike in response to the shutdown. Is everyone else in the world like "duh, you shoulda been doing that weeks ago"? Americans are real skittish about that kind of thing for whatever reasons (beaten dog syndrome?), and I don't even know if it's likely en masse, but it'd be nice to see the idea take hold.