[abate]

hadoken13, on 23 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

What book was it in again where it was mentioned that when Rake visited the Isle of the Seguleh he was consistently challenged and had to leave to not have to kill any more? I could well picture the mask being given to Rake but him not putting it on.

Chapter 5 of Memories of Ice

[hadoken13]

abate, on 24 September 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

hadoken13, on 23 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

What book was it in again where it was mentioned that when Rake visited the Isle of the Seguleh he was consistently challenged and had to leave to not have to kill any more? I could well picture the mask being given to Rake but him not putting it on.

Chapter 5 of Memories of Ice

Thanks Abate.

[Caladen]

I thought Rake had to escape because he was too tired from all the fighting he had done?

[Kanese S's]

Caladen, on 05 October 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

I thought Rake had to escape because he was too tired from all the fighting he had done?

Mentally/emotionally tired, in my opinion. Remember, he could have just veered into his dragon form and/or blasted them all away with sorcery if it had been necessary.

[Aptorian]

I believe Lady Envy's quote was something in the lines of "To slow down the beating of his Immortal heart." Which doesn't necessarily imply exhaustion but does imply extreme exertion. They were pushing him to the limits of his reserve. One fight after another with some of the best the Seguleh had to offer.

[TekZila]

Dassem is on his way to ascending right? Him attaining the position of first an returning the Segluh to the island more inclines me to think he'll be around for events in latter books then not.

This post has been edited by TekZila: 05 October 2012 - 06:04 AM

[worry]

As far as I'm concerned, what that means is they drove him to near Icarium-levels of mindless destructive rage. He's not Icarium, but he does have chaos in his blood. Rake was never in personal danger, but he was in danger of losing his temper...which would have been bad for the entire Seguleh civilization.

[Vaddon Ra]

i like that, never thought rake might enrage XD he's not a mass murderer and it makes sense for him to not want to kill them all just as he was out for a stroll


I like the idea of Dassem as an old commander coming with the newest generation of seguleh to help the dying malazan empires new first sword to stave off karsa's army.... you know, just a thought maybe karsa book 3

[Abyss]

Kanese S, on 05 October 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Caladen, on 05 October 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

I thought Rake had to escape because he was too tired from all the fighting he had done?

Mentally/emotionally tired, in my opinion. Remember, he could have just veered into his dragon form and/or blasted them all away with sorcery if it had been necessary.

Aptorius, on 05 October 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

I believe Lady Envy's quote was something in the lines of "To slow down the beating of his Immortal heart." Which doesn't necessarily imply exhaustion but does imply extreme exertion. They were pushing him to the limits of his reserve. One fight after another with some of the best the Seguleh had to offer.

worrywort, on 05 October 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

As far as I'm concerned, what that means is they drove him to near Icarium-levels of mindless destructive rage. He's not Icarium, but he does have chaos in his blood. Rake was never in personal danger, but he was in danger of losing his temper...which would have been bad for the entire Seguleh civilization.

Vaddon Ra, on 11 March 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

i like that, never thought rake might enrage XD he's not a mass murderer and it makes sense for him to not want to kill them all just as he was out for a stroll

I took it as physical exhaustion from the fighting. I don't think rage was ever a factor.
The point that if he were in serious jeapordy Rake would go draconic and blast things is totally accurate, but he was facing a series of one-on-one duels, not mass attacks or pitched battles.

Also, tho i love hate to play this card, when i met SE his description lined up with the 'out for a stroll, non-stop duels, bailed' scenario.

TekZila, on 05 October 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Dassem is on his way to ascending right? Him attaining the position of first an returning the Segluh to the island more inclines me to think he'll be around for events in latter books then not.

Dassem already ascended. Arguably twice, possibly thrice.
As Seguleh First he might do it again. Or that role may help him avoid it.

Ascension is a term for moving beyond what the person was, gaining power.
Dassem ascended, to the same degree anyone else in the Family did, when he spent quality time in the Deadhouse while Kel was building the Empire.
Then he became Knight of Death by making a deal with Hood, with the related power-up.
He ascended again when he became Dessembrae due to worshippers casting him in the aspect of tragedy.

In RCG and TtH we see him move in and out of the Dessembrae aspect. He's more powerful in it, but still reluctant.
When he accepts the First mask in OST, he's acting in an entirely mortal capacity (tho 'mortal' for Dassem is still ascended from a baseline human master swordman who spent time in the Deadhouse and served as Hood's Knight).

In DG and TCG we saw 'mere' humans (Coltaine, Stormy, Gessler) resisting ascension by hanging on to their humanity.
I think that by grounding himself first in the martial arts cult and then with the Seguleh, Dassem is actually trying to avoid further ascension.

We also saw in TCG that at times 'echoes' of Dessembrae may be acting separate from Dassem, which just adds a layer of complication to the whole 'man/ascendent/god' variations.

Vaddon Ra, on 11 March 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

I like the idea of Dassem as an old commander coming with the newest generation of seguleh to help the dying malazan empires new first sword to stave off karsa's army.... you know, just a thought maybe karsa book 3

It's totally possible, but given their relationship in TtH, i could see Das lining the Seguleh up in Karsa's army's path and offering to fight him mano-y-teblor, after a night of serious drinking of course.

[worry]

Well sure, everybody gets tired...but what goes along with that? Getting cranky!

[Abyss]

Rake doesn't get cranky.

He gets even.






..Dassem, on the other hand, gets seriously cranky. Dude needs to lighten up.

[the broken]

Veering takes time, that you don't have against Seguleh. Multiple times in the series someone is defeated by being attacked halfway through veering. I think he was at risk of being killed if he had to keep fighting.

[Abyss]

the 'funny' part about this is that if Rake had just chilled out and lowered his eyes, he probably could have had an uneventful visit.

[Vaddon Ra]

Abyss, on 13 March 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

the 'funny' part about this is that if Rake had just chilled out and lowered his eyes, he probably could have had an uneventful visit.

I'd love SE to write a little novellete about this Rake was said to be very arrogant and, well he's rake right!, he wouldn't have just meekly moved aside from some little skinny guys in masks...and then...BAM"!!! hell breaks loose XD
I'd love a written account of this who gave him pause do you think? maybe the next challenger wasnt the sixth, maybe like the Third or Second turned up (you know THE second... SKINNERRRRRR!!!!! an all that) with a back full of weapons and Rake just thought, "to hell with this I'm off XD"
Come on SE or ICE write it up just for fun it'd be a great little chapter

[JohnO]

How did envy know about rakes trip to seguleh central?

If she was there it seems unlikely shed be looking down. She's a look em in eye eye kinda gal after all.

So maybe she was making up the description of the trip, or the whole trip was an envy/spite setup right from the off, as plan to get dragnipur

On other hand maybe she was stood next to him sword in hand and is also ranked

[Kanese S's]

Envy and Rake were lovers for a time. Probably from pillow talk at the least.

Also, if she had accompanied him, she doesn't seem the type to put up with that kind of thing. She'd probably have used sorcery to keep from having to deal with Seguleh who wanted to duel.

[Brujah]

Wow, I really need to read this one then. I've only read NoKs and RotCG. So Dassem becomes Segulah 1st? Very interesting.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Abyss, on 12 March 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

<snip>

TekZila, on 05 October 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Dassem is on his way to ascending right? Him attaining the position of first an returning the Segluh to the island more inclines me to think he'll be around for events in latter books then not.

Dassem already ascended. Arguably twice, possibly thrice.
As Seguleh First he might do it again. Or that role may help him avoid it.

Ascension is a term for moving beyond what the person was, gaining power.
Dassem ascended, to the same degree anyone else in the Family did, when he spent quality time in the Deadhouse while Kel was building the Empire.
Then he became Knight of Death by making a deal with Hood, with the related power-up.
He ascended again when he became Dessembrae due to worshippers casting him in the aspect of tragedy.

In RCG and TtH we see him move in and out of the Dessembrae aspect. He's more powerful in it, but still reluctant.
When he accepts the First mask in OST, he's acting in an entirely mortal capacity (tho 'mortal' for Dassem is still ascended from a baseline human master swordman who spent time in the Deadhouse and served as Hood's Knight).

In DG and TCG we saw 'mere' humans (Coltaine, Stormy, Gessler) resisting ascension by hanging on to their humanity.
I think that by grounding himself first in the martial arts cult and then with the Seguleh, Dassem is actually trying to avoid further ascension.

We also saw in TCG that at times 'echoes' of Dessembrae may be acting separate from Dassem, which just adds a layer of complication to the whole 'man/ascendent/god' variations.

Is Dassem not the worst choice for first then?

He is effectively the living embodiment of tragedy...It's like inviting death for tea (of which he was/is partially aspected to). Has his position as first overruled his position as Dassembrae?

Maybe a better question is: Does Dassem call on the tragic events in his life or is he just drawn to them like a moth to a flame?

If he is pulled to or pulling at tragedy then travel to Cant seems a terrible terrible idea?

[Tiste Simeon]

^totally thought you meant Dassem was partially aspected to tea for a second there...

I have been reading it as Dassem & Dessembrae can change at will yet are also two separate aspects (ie that scene in TCG with Silchas, Shadowthrone etc.) I think his martial focus are his efforts, as mentioned above, to avoid any further power ups and also to keep his Dessembrae aspect away.

This post has been edited by Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon: 25 March 2014 - 10:38 AM

[Dolmen 2.0]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 25 March 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

^totally thought you meant Dassem was partially aspected to tea for a second there...

This post has been edited by Dolmen Weeks: 25 March 2014 - 12:51 PM