[gandrin]

1. One of the characters asked the question, but it never was answered... So which god were they Mortal sword/Shield anvil for? Tiam? Seems unanswered.

1a. I'm not convinced Stormy ever did anything remotely "shield anvil" like

2. After hearing about how they had "almost ascended" for 7 books, then becoming MS and SA, then hearing that comment by somebody about 'barely holding on to their humanity', then dying in the most heroic way possible....
.... shouldn't they have ascended?
If they didn't ascend after all that, I don't know who else would EVER be able to ascend. All Trake did to ascend was get killed, finally. (By the way, it really makes you wonder if Anomander is truly gone...)

This post has been edited by gandrin: 14 February 2012 - 08:33 PM

[Abyss]

gandrin, on 14 February 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

1. One of the characters asked the question, but it never was answered... So which god were they Mortal sword/Shield anvil for? Tiam? Seems unanswered.

1a. I'm not convinced Stormy ever did anything remotely "shield anvil" like

2. After hearing about how they had "almost ascended" for 7 books, then becoming MS and SA, then hearing that comment by somebody about 'barely holding on to their humanity', then dying in the most heroic way possible....
.... shouldn't they have ascended?
If they didn't ascend after all that, I don't know who else would EVER be able to ascend. All Trake did to ascend was get killed, finally. (By the way, it really makes you wonder if Anomander is truly gone...)

Actually it was stated clearly that they became, as of DoD, the MS and SA for the K'Chain Che'malle race.

Before that they were aspected to Kurald Thyrrllan (post the Silanda in DG), which gave them various benefits and put them on the edge of ascension (if not right over but holdling onto humanity even so), with an extra dose from Gesler surviving Yghatan and Stormy carrying around an Imass' aspected sword and probably Fener, tho that was never explained.... and
BEFORE that, way back pre-DG when we first meet them, Gesler had been MS to Fener, presumably thru the Malazan cult since he's obviously not a Grey Sword.

And before anyone says it, yes, a god can have more than one Mortal Sword. the god just has to be willing to expend the extra power and related vulnerability.

Stormy spent most of his time with the army worrying over the pain and deaths of 'his' soldiers and then the same with the KC. He never did Itkovian's 'absorb your pain and put your soul to rest' thing, but then, he wasn't in the role all that long and the logistics of a human doing that for KC were probably not obvious.

And while ascension can happen involuntarily, i imagine that it can be refused as well and after all that time spent denying it, it would make sense that they have sufficient willpower to deny ascension and move their souls towards whatever afterlife.

[tiam]

^ this but also

Stormy may have carried an essenc of a fallen Fener around with him which may have passed into his leg on the Silanda in DG. Also according to Draconus all the gods in the realm of TCG are shield anvils and Stormy was healed via link with Heborics hand in the same sense. Either one it could be or something entirely different. A stretch admittedly but still a reasonable assumption.

[JPK]

Also, who is to say that they haven't ascended Itkovian-style? We didn't hear about him becoming anything larger until several books and years (according to the timeline that doesn't matter) later. We still haven't really seen anything that is obviously after tCG on the timeline.

[gandrin]

Abyss, on 14 February 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Actually it was stated clearly that they became, as of DoD, the MS and SA for the K'Chain Che'malle race.

Stormy spent most of his time with the army worrying over the pain and deaths of 'his' soldiers and then the same with the KC. He never did Itkovian's 'absorb your pain and put your soul to rest' thing, but then, he wasn't in the role all that long and the logistics of a human doing that for KC were probably not obvious.

And while ascension can happen involuntarily, i imagine that it can be refused as well and after all that time spent denying it, it would make sense that they have sufficient willpower to deny ascension and move their souls towards whatever afterlife.

Ummm..... I beg to differ on some points.
Yes, the MS and SA for KCCM is obvious...but then in TCG one of the Lether/Bolkando characters asked the pointed, and unanswered question of "Which god???" That question is never resolved...though you might argue it was Fener. That would be EXTREMELY strange, however, because the Destriant and the Matron have no idea who Fener is ("they keep saying the name of some god over and over"). If the Destriant doesn't know who Fener is, and is the manifestation of some god for the KCCM....pretty clear it couldn't be Fener. Plus she didn't seem to react strangely when Fener did his thing, nor did Gesler and Stormy lose their power.

This question was clearly asked in TCG...and clearly left unanswered. Another idea...maybe the fact that they were calling on Fener shows there was NO god for them. The Matron had just tried to form her own "human style" cult based on their own magic. Which earlier (DoD) they state has no god, but honors Dragons. Since Stormy and Gesler got their power from "dragonland" warren and dipped in thyr in the way Dragons do...it could be they were the "dragon" MS and SA.

About no SA action:
Gesler makes a point several times of making sure Stormy's ready to embrace them....and then nothing happens in the end. He just fights like anybody else. I think it's a hole in the story.

About ascension
I like the idea of refusing ascension, but I would have expected some mention of that as they died. I'd have to think they are in the Itkovian side of things, and probably more powerful. I bet we'll see more of them if the books come back to this land.

[tiam]

They become MS and Shield Anvil to the matron herself, an entity of a power to rival most gods. It is a remarkably alien aspect to grasp for both the KCCM and Stormy and Ges but the KCCM were thinking outside the box with this thinking.

Stormy could have well have been absorbing the essence of those fallen but died before any of it came to fruition. Heboric went on a wander through a land of the dead in 7c and Itkovian did the same. However it may be that such things are not the same with the KCCM. Stormy may have simply filled the role if you see what I mean.

They fought off their ascension and died as humans, albeit slightly super powered. IT seems that theyll probably die in the manner of humans.

[worry]

On your first point, I do remember that, and I think one has to conclude that it's left up in the air for not only the reader, but even perhaps the characters. It's an unprecedented situation. And we learn, or at least some characters pontificate in DoD, that all life (or was it all matter?) is made up of sorcery/chaos/whatever. Alongside Icarium's new warrens and ST/Cot's play against the gods, lots of unprecedented stuff is going down, so lots of unknowns are bound to be out there. I do believe when DoD first came out the theories for the human Destriant was that the last Matron had reached a kind of godhood, but I'm not sure what TCG says about that. Let the theories fly!

I'm personally on the refused ascension to the end side of things. Which most likely just means they will go back to being soldiers on the other side of the threshold, unless they get up to something else. Either way, nobody worshiped them, so they ain't coming back as gods anyway. Anyone who knew them well enough to worship them would do the right thing and not do it.

[DragniRake]

tiam, on 15 February 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

They become MS and Shield Anvil to the matron herself, an entity of a power to rival most gods. It is a remarkably alien aspect to grasp for both the KCCM and Stormy and Ges but the KCCM were thinking outside the box with this thinking.

Stormy could have well have been absorbing the essence of those fallen but died before any of it came to fruition. Heboric went on a wander through a land of the dead in 7c and Itkovian did the same. However it may be that such things are not the same with the KCCM. Stormy may have simply filled the role if you see what I mean.

They fought off their ascension and died as humans, albeit slightly super powered. IT seems that theyll probably die in the manner of humans.

Agreed on the point of them being MS and SA of the matron. Im on my re read of MOI, and Kallor distinctly says, when lecturing Brood and company about the KC, that the matrons had a power to match that of gods. Thus, it makes sense that she would be capable of having a Mortal Sword, Shield Anvil, and Destriant.

[Mekeritrig]

I always interpreted it as them being MS and SA of the abstraction of communitas, brotherhood, etc, which particularly works for the KCCM. For whatever that's worth.