[Eloq]

I've just finished reading this book. I have mixed feelings about it, but will be moving on to book 2. Anyway, one of the things I really didn't understand was what Crokus brought to the story. He seems like just a stupid young kid who falls in love with every pretty girl he sees. The whole Challice thing goes nowhere. He's supposedly some important pawn of Oponn but if it was at all clear what was important about him or how his coinbearer status moved the plot along. He just seems like a waste. What am I missing here?

[Princess]

Keep on reading. You'll find out

[worry]

Yah, this is one of those series with more that one book in it.

[D'rek]

Eloq, on 08 February 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I've just finished reading this book. I have mixed feelings about it, but will be moving on to book 2. Anyway, one of the things I really didn't understand was what Crokus brought to the story. He seems like just a stupid young kid who falls in love with every pretty girl he sees. The whole Challice thing goes nowhere. He's supposedly some important pawn of Oponn but if it was at all clear what was important about him or how his coinbearer status moved the plot along. He just seems like a waste. What am I missing here?

He's the Daru perspective. Without him you'd mostly just have Malazan viewpoints of everything and the empire's hostility to Darujhistan wouldn't seem so bad (as the reader you tend to side with the protaganist).

[Eloq]

D, on 08 February 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

He's the Daru perspective. Without him you'd mostly just have Malazan viewpoints of everything and the empire's hostility to Darujhistan wouldn't seem so bad (as the reader you tend to side with the protaganist).

But aren't Baruk, Rallick, Murillio, Coll and Kruppe Daru? They're political players and such (and a drunk) but I feel like we have other characters who could and do do the Daru job, unless Erikson really felt like he needed an "innocent" Daru perspective. Maybe to show the costs of war on the innocent? I'm not sure he performed that role well but maybe that's just because I didn't like him because I thought he was useless.

Anyway, it seems that Crokus will continue to play a role in future books so maybe I'll get a better idea of why he had to be in this one. Hopefully he becomes more interesting in the process.

[Tapper]

I think part of the reason is narrative. Many of the people in the book are arrivés, who are at the peak of their power. Like he does with Paran on the Malazan side, he uses Crokus on the Daru side to bring the city to life, add an explanation or two, show the way of life, introduce the power players from his angle, and add in a character that satisfies one of fantasy's clichés, the goldenhearted young lout. Someone like that is a useful tool for an author as he can develop the character without many background flash backs detailing a few decades of history attached to the character.

Since SE and ICE based their story at the least partly on roleplaying they did in the past, it may also be that Crokus was a playing character of one of them - he's a fairly standard rogue type. And yes, he is perhaps one of the lesser interesting components of the story as a whole. Then again, you may like what he develops into

[D'rek]

Tapper, on 08 February 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think part of the reason is narrative. Many of the people in the book are arrivés, who are at the peak of their power. Like he does with Paran on the Malazan side, he uses Crokus on the Daru side to bring the city to life, add an explanation or two, show the way of life, introduce the power players from his angle, and add in a character that satisfies one of fantasy's clichés, the goldenhearted young lout. Someone like that is a useful tool for an author as he can develop the character without many background flash backs detailing a few decades of history attached to the character.

Since SE and ICE based their story at the least partly on roleplaying they did in the past, it may also be that Crokus was a playing character of one of them - he's a fairly standard rogue type. And yes, he is perhaps one of the lesser interesting components of the story as a whole. Then again, you may like what he develops into

I'm pretty sure he's said at some point that the Phoenix Inn Five (Kruppe, Crokus, Rallick, Coll and Murillio) were played in at least one if not lots and lots of roleplaying games.

[SylvanShade]

The way I saw it was, in most fantasies there is a young character in schooling, in this case, Baruk is Crokus's teacher. Through the narrative, this makes sense for history to be recited explicitly in dialogue.
I've noticed authors utilize that method quite a lot when it comes to background or contextual exposition, be it history or the mechanics of a magic system.
So the reader is learning just as much as the character.
Crokus is that youthful means of exposition that would otherwise be awkwardly presented through other methods.

EDIT - And also, when Erikson talks about tampering with the tropes, I think Crokus was supposed to be that element of satire parodying fantasy convention, portraying him as naive and whatnot, only to later on toy with him, thus, he symbolizes a fantasy trope.

This post has been edited by SylvanShade: 19 February 2012 - 11:55 AM

[daniel]

Crokus has a part to play albeit a minor one....there is no need to worry about him!

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

keep on reading. Crockus undergoes tremendous chage as the series progresses. You may end up liking him.

[rhulad]

BMD is a liar. Crokus doesn't change, it's everyone else that changes.

[Wampyry]

I believe that Crokus is a type of conduit that introduces the readers to various characters in the book: Rallick, Coll, Murillo, Kruppe, Baruk, Caladan Broos, Oponn, Crimson Guards, etc.

Kyle play a similiar role in RTCG

[Bantato_2ch]

Eloq, on 08 February 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

D, on 08 February 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

He's the Daru perspective. Without him you'd mostly just have Malazan viewpoints of everything and the empire's hostility to Darujhistan wouldn't seem so bad (as the reader you tend to side with the protaganist).

But aren't Baruk, Rallick, Murillio, Coll and Kruppe Daru? They're political players and such (and a drunk) but I feel like we have other characters who could and do do the Daru job, unless Erikson really felt like he needed an "innocent" Daru perspective. Maybe to show the costs of war on the innocent? I'm not sure he performed that role well but maybe that's just because I didn't like him because I thought he was useless.

Anyway, it seems that Crokus will continue to play a role in future books so maybe I'll get a better idea of why he had to be in this one. Hopefully he becomes more interesting in the process.

I think Crokus was the primary Daru perspective since he's a thief he goes around most of the city, unlike The Phoenix, a party, and the occasional alley.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

This post has been edited by Sir.Bumpaclottus: 02 April 2017 - 04:52 PM

[ArchieVist]

D said:

1328824491[/url]' post='929576']

Tapper said:

1328741496[/url]' post='929132']
I think part of the reason is narrative. Many of the people in the book are arrivés, who are at the peak of their power. Like he does with Paran on the Malazan side, he uses Crokus on the Daru side to bring the city to life, add an explanation or two, show the way of life, introduce the power players from his angle, and add in a character that satisfies one of fantasy's clichés, the goldenhearted young lout. Someone like that is a useful tool for an author as he can develop the character without many background flash backs detailing a few decades of history attached to the character.

Since SE and ICE based their story at the least partly on roleplaying they did in the past, it may also be that Crokus was a playing character of one of them - he's a fairly standard rogue type. And yes, he is perhaps one of the lesser interesting components of the story as a whole. Then again, you may like what he develops into

I'm pretty sure he's said at some point that the Phoenix Inn Five (Kruppe, Crokus, Rallick, Coll and Murillio) were played in at least one if not lots and lots of roleplaying games.

That's correct. Plus, Erikson has said that when ICE ran their games he used Coll, Rallick, Murillio, (and Crokus thrown in) to pay homage to the Three Musketeers. It sounds like Crokus played the D'Artagnan role?

[Not Noto]

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

I hate Crokus. Saving the cabal mages is very bad.

[Abyss]

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

Not really. You could argue the timing of Cotillion withdrawing from Sorry was influenced by Oponn, but naming her Apsalar and deciding to help was pure Crokus. Similarly, Crokus was the only one of the group to talk to Lorn... Coll and Murillo both attached and she took out Kruppe because taking out the Mage first is reflex for her. That was Crokus' instincts, not luck.

Not Noto, on 04 April 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

I hate Crokus. Saving the cabal mages is very bad.

Again, not really. The general consensus towards the end of the book is that the Empire taking over Darujhistan would have been a bad thing. Crokus saving Baruk and Derudan was part of that.

[Not Noto]

Abyss, on 04 April 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

Not really. You could argue the timing of Cotillion withdrawing from Sorry was influenced by Oponn, but naming her Apsalar and deciding to help was pure Crokus. Similarly, Crokus was the only one of the group to talk to Lorn... Coll and Murillo both attached and she took out Kruppe because taking out the Mage first is reflex for her. That was Crokus' instincts, not luck.

Not Noto, on 04 April 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

I hate Crokus. Saving the cabal mages is very bad.

Again, not really. The general consensus towards the end of the book is that the Empire taking over Darujhistan would have been a bad thing. Crokus saving Baruk and Derudan was part of that.

Yes but it wouldn't matter in the end if the cabal mages died. The mages didn't really do anything to stop the bridgeburners or Lorn.

[Abyss]

Not Noto, on 04 April 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

Abyss, on 04 April 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

...
Again, not really. The general consensus towards the end of the book is that the Empire taking over Darujhistan would have been a bad thing. Crokus saving Baruk and Derudan was part of that.

Yes but it wouldn't matter in the end if the cabal mages died. The mages didn't really do anything to stop the bridgeburners or Lorn.

You're right, but there is a bit more to it.

It's said repeatedly at the start of the book that the first thing the Malazan Empire does when it takes over is send in the Claw or hire local talent to assassinate all the rulers and powerful mages in a city - and the Seige of Pale at the start and then Vorcan's actions prove this is effective - so the Cabal keeping a low profile isn't ridiculous. Baruk is the only exception and his pov makes it clear he actually cares about the city. What we see of the others, Crokus' academic uncle and self-indulgent Derudan, doesn't suggest they were very involved secret rulers.

They knew there were Malazan agents around, but hadn't found them. Also anyone's guess if they could have done anything, since other than Baruk they aren't wildly effective, tho to be fair, it took a Jaghut Tyrant to take out Crokus' uncle, and the head of the assassin's guild to take out the rest, so no one was exactly a lightweight.

Even so, only Baruk seemed to be really interested in working to save the city, and Derudan supported him. It's Baruk's alliance with Rake that ensures the draconic Andii and Silanah confront Raest when Lorn releases him, and the same could be said for Rake confronting the demon lord.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Abyss, on 04 April 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

Not really. You could argue the timing of Cotillion withdrawing from Sorry was influenced by Oponn, but naming her Apsalar and deciding to help was pure Crokus. Similarly, Crokus was the only one of the group to talk to Lorn... Coll and Murillo both attached and she took out Kruppe because taking out the Mage first is reflex for her. That was Crokus' instincts, not luck.

Not Noto, on 04 April 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 02 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Crokus = Lorns death, saving the remaining mages from the assasin/vorcan, getting sorry/apsalar on her way home.. also saving coll, kruppe and murillo from getting killed by lorn.

And everything except maybe saving the mages, is cause of oppons influence..

I hate Crokus. Saving the cabal mages is very bad.

Again, not really. The general consensus towards the end of the book is that the Empire taking over Darujhistan would have been a bad thing. Crokus saving Baruk and Derudan was part of that.

But crokus was only with them outside of daruhjistan because they needed to protect the coinbearer, so if he hadnt had oppons coin he wouldnt have been there to make Lorn reconsider killing them.

So he also met sorry/apsalar because of him being the coin bearer and then went on to the fete with her, for his own reasons.

Also the crimson guard wouldnt have killed Lorn either if not for the coin..

And all of that just from dropping a coin into the mix, and sit back and watch..

This post has been edited by Sir.Bumpaclottus: 04 April 2017 - 10:16 PM