[Tira]

http://encyclopediam...s%20of%20Shadow

Why are there eight hounds listed? In the first book Pallick isn't mentioned in the Appendix. Did she fill one of the places left open because Rake killed two of them? Or did I miss something else while reading the books?

[Aptorian]

It seems that there is a mother and a father and 6 offspring. It is also implied that they breed for need. Or something like that. They can multiply. For all we know there could be a valley somewhere in shadow where there is a thousand Shadow Hounds.

[tiam]

Tira, on 15 January 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

http://encyclopediam...s%20of%20Shadow

Why are there eight hounds listed? In the first book Pallick isn't mentioned in the Appendix. Did she fill one of the places left open because Rake killed two of them? Or did I miss something else while reading the books?

its a typo really. Pallick is never mentioned again and its Doan and Ganrod that are killed.

[Tira]

Apt: I always thought of "Hound of Shadow" more of a title that shows the affiliation to the House of Shadow, not as a name for the species. That's why I was wondering.

tiam: Thanks. That solves my confusion.

[Silk]

there is also the case of garath (think that was Envy's dog's name) so there is more than 1 way to become a hound of shadow...

[D'rek]

Or there are just seven Hounds of Shadow at the time of GotM (first half anyways) but there was previously eight, but then Pallick died?

This post has been edited by D'rek: 18 January 2012 - 02:40 AM

[Aptorian]

Maybe there are as many hounds as there are needed. In "peace time" the warren only needs 7 to guard its lands. In a time of need more could emerge?

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 18 January 2012 - 04:26 AM

[Tira]

Another possibility would be that there are only seven Hounds, but Pallick died and then one of the two younger Hounds from the "first generation" (in lack of a better word) filled the place.

I doubt that there are more Hounds when they are needed, all legends etc. aren't normally telling about a peaceful time; so there should be some story tidbits about more Hounds if that was the case, I think. And how should the Malazans/other people/whoever know how much hounds there are for solely guarding the realm? (Except for the others in the House)

This post has been edited by Tira: 18 January 2012 - 07:14 AM

[Aptorian]

The warrens have their own kind of sentience as is mentioned in RG (I believe). One could claim that the Kings and Queens of the realm are just the super-janitors.

I don't know how spoilerific we want to get here for later books but we know of different kinds of hounds and we know of different kinds of origin stories. The seven Hounds of Shadow fill a role in the House but that doesn't mean that there could not be more of them.

[D'rek]

Aptorius, on 18 January 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

The warrens have their own kind of sentience as is mentioned in RG (I believe). One could claim that the Kings and Queens of the realm are just the super-janitors.

I don't know how spoilerific we want to get here for later books but we know of different kinds of hounds and we know of different kinds of origin stories. The seven Hounds of Shadow fill a role in the House but that doesn't mean that there could not be more of them.

That sentience could be only attributable to that particular warren, though. And then we see in TCG that it isn't exactly just the warren being sentient, either... (being ambiguous to avoid spoilers - like you say how spoilerific are we going here?)

Even if there are only supposed to be Seven Hounds of Shadow and that is the magic number, that doesn't really make for a logical problem. Maybe thousands of years before GotM the Seven Hounds were Rood, Pallick, Doan, Ganrod, Baran, Shan and Blind. Then something happened and Pallick died bringing the number down to Six but shortly after Baran and Blind conceived Gear bringing the number back up to Seven.

Obviously this would imply a rather incestuous genealogy of the Hounds, but there's been weirder things in Malazan (Olar Ethil is her own mother, what?).

[Aptorian]

D, on 18 January 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 18 January 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

The warrens have their own kind of sentience as is mentioned in RG (I believe). One could claim that the Kings and Queens of the realm are just the super-janitors.

I don't know how spoilerific we want to get here for later books but we know of different kinds of hounds and we know of different kinds of origin stories. The seven Hounds of Shadow fill a role in the House but that doesn't mean that there could not be more of them.

That sentience could be only attributable to that particular warren, though. And then we see in TCG that it isn't exactly just the warren being sentient, either... (being ambiguous to avoid spoilers - like you say how spoilerific are we going here?)

RG/TTH spoilers beware:

Spoiler

Well, regarding the sentience of warrens, one, there is the fact that the warren of Emurhlan chose Brys as its Mortal Sword. Now of course you could explain this as it being a naturally occurring selection, an organic mechanism that happens with no concious choice, (After all the Deck seems to do this all the time) which still supports my claim that the warren could simply summon or create more hounds as needed.

Two, we have Mocra. Now it's been years since I read that book, but I do believe Mocra states something to the effect of it being a product of the other warrens conciousness. Like she is the fulcrum or maybe just a by product. (Not sure why I want to think of Mocra as female)... But then you have that Dragon that is chained in Shadow. Which is also Mocra? Oh my head.

Three we have the appearance of Hounds of Light among the Hounds of Shadow. As it turned out these hounds were not actually a substitute for the dead hounds but still there was a talk of a need and a purpose. As though any warren can have hounds. And this only happens when the warren or universe is in deep shit if you want to believe the words of Tulas Shorn.

[Tira]

I won't be spoilered - I'd only be reminded of things that I forgot or missed because English isn't my first language.
But I don't know about other people who read this thread.

I don't want to deny that there are more than seven Hounds, I just find it unlikely (at least in my mind) and more likely that one was substituted.

At the end of TTH, weren't the Hounds decimized once more? I'm not completely sure and I don't have the book on hand right now, but wouldn't it have made more sense if more hounds were going there (if there are more than seven) to have a greater chance at achieving their goal?

If one combines the "one dead another new Hound" theory and the "many Hounds but only seven in the House" theory, it might be possible that the most suited (and willing) Hound would get the free position.
At least to me it makes sense, the first gen hounds might have gotten the position because they learned from the high abilities from their parents. So there would be no need for incest.

Edit: I didn't include anything from the above post. I was still occupied with writing.

Edit 2: in answer to the above spoiler:

Spoiler

To the first point: The warren simply filled in a position that was already there, it didn't create a new position, right?

Second point: A new warren/position was founded (?) but I can't remember any changes of positions (in aspects or, in this case number), so I do think the number is fix, but that may be just me.

Third: There may be the need, yes, but it could as well be that the Hounds of Light were the best that were available for this positions and the need only goes so far as to accept the best choice right now, not the overall best choice (which would have been leaving it free for a more "loyal" one). Which would contradict the masses of Hounds (in the shadow realm) that are not affiliated to the House.

Unrelated: I do hope my spoiler works, I just assume it to be working with BBCode since I can't find a symbol in the editor for spoilers. If it doesn't, would somebody please tell me how to do it properly?It works.

This post has been edited by Tira: 18 January 2012 - 07:09 PM

[D'rek]

Aptorius, on 18 January 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

RG/TTH spoilers beware:

Spoiler

Well, regarding the sentience of warrens, one, there is the fact that the warren of Emurhlan chose Brys as its Mortal Sword. Now of course you could explain this as it being a naturally occurring selection, an organic mechanism that happens with no concious choice, (After all the Deck seems to do this all the time) which still supports my claim that the warren could simply summon or create more hounds as needed.

Two, we have Mocra. Now it's been years since I read that book, but I do believe Mocra states something to the effect of it being a product of the other warrens conciousness. Like she is the fulcrum or maybe just a by product. (Not sure why I want to think of Mocra as female)... But then you have that Dragon that is chained in Shadow. Which is also Mocra? Oh my head.

Three we have the appearance of Hounds of Light among the Hounds of Shadow. As it turned out these hounds were not actually a substitute for the dead hounds but still there was a talk of a need and a purpose. As though any warren can have hounds. And this only happens when the warren or universe is in deep shit if you want to believe the words of Tulas Shorn.

Spoiler

The Mortal Sword of Emurlahn bit doesn't seem much different, IMO, from the Tiles/Decks readings and such. The warren itself didn't actually give him anything or change him, did it? So I'm not sure how much I consider this sentience versus just some prophetic magnetic field that is more of a force of nature, like the cards and tiles.

As for Mockra, that's what I was referring to above - TCG shows/hints how Eloth is the sentience behind Mockra. Not that we ever see another warren talking to someone, but if we did it could easily be another case of its dragon being the sentience behind it (assuming it is a warren with dragon affiliations, that is).

Tira, on 18 January 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

At the end of TTH, weren't the Hounds decimized once more? I'm not completely sure and I don't have the book on hand right now, but wouldn't it have made more sense if more hounds were going there (if there are more than seven) to have a greater chance at achieving their goal?

The 10 Hounds of Light got reduced in number from 10 to a handful

Spoiler

to four if there were no HoL deaths between TtH and TCG

Combining the theories does make for a fairly solid theory, but I have to wonder if there are plenty more non-House hounds about why didn't ST and Cot ever replace Doan and Ganrod? Seems like something they would have done, or at least it would have come up in conversation with Tulas Shorn (who notes that two are missing, more evidence of the importance of there being Seven one way or another).

[Tira]

Might be that the Hounds need to have certain abilities / strength / whatever and that there are normal hounds but none that was exceptional enough to fill the place.