[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 19 hours and 23 minutes remaining

14 Players still alive: Atrahal, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Karatallid, Kessobahn, Korlat, Okaros, Olar Ethil, Osseric, Sheltatha Lore, Silanah, Sorrit, Tiamatha, Tulas Shorn

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Galayn Lord ( Korlat )
2 Votes for Okaros ( Osseric, Sorrit )
1 Vote for Korlat ( Tiamatha )
3 Votes for Osseric ( Karatallid, Kessobahn, Olar Ethil )

Players not voted: Atrahal, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Okaros, Sheltatha Lore, Silanah, Tulas Shorn

[Sheltatha Lore]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

When that is said: It's a shitty deal for Okaros, but the discussion that has blossomed up as a result of his silencing makes me think he'll be the best option for a lynch today. If he turns up innocent there's some value in examining his attackers, and if he turns up guilty, well then we've got our work cut out for us.

Okaros

I disagree.
In every Benses game that has been run on this forum, there is a whole lot of wifom surrounding the first silenced one. That does not make him an informative lynch. It makes him an easy and lazy lynch because he can contribute so little and because his posts stand out while containing very little. 90% of his attackers base their attacks on wifom, the other 10% on misunderstanding what he is saying, like the 'lining up' bit.

Secondly, you create an environment where either the silenced guy is going to be the automatic back-up lynch target, or where people pointing out potential scumminess of the silenced one are going to be attacked if he turns up inno on account of picking on him when he couldn't defend himself. It is day one. We have long odds of lynching scum (but we should lynch). We can afford to wait, to lynch a low-poster or someone who stands out, rather than going for the "informative" lynch - which is all conjecture especially if we get a "greater good" lynch where everyone who votes just posts "I think this lynch gives the most information".
That's too easy a cop-out for people to jump on the bandwagon without risking their skin if the lynchee comes up inno.

Instead of lynching him today, give him a chance to talk tomorrow, if you then don't like what he has to say, make a case.
For the person silenced tomorrow, scummy behavior on day 1 can be attached to cases, that person then has the additional handicap of being silenced when he wants to make a defense, but the grounds of condemning him are at the least based on a case of scumminess.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

[Sheltatha Lore]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

Fuck, wrong person.

Remove vote
Vote Karatallid.

[Sorrit]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

When that is said: It's a shitty deal for Okaros, but the discussion that has blossomed up as a result of his silencing makes me think he'll be the best option for a lynch today. If he turns up innocent there's some value in examining his attackers, and if he turns up guilty, well then we've got our work cut out for us.

Okaros

I disagree.
In every Benses game that has been run on this forum, there is a whole lot of wifom surrounding the first silenced one. That does not make him an informative lynch. It makes him an easy and lazy lynch because he can contribute so little and because his posts stand out while containing very little. 90% of his attackers base their attacks on wifom, the other 10% on misunderstanding what he is saying, like the 'lining up' bit.

Secondly, you create an environment where either the silenced guy is going to be the automatic back-up lynch target, or where people pointing out potential scumminess of the silenced one are going to be attacked if he turns up inno on account of picking on him when he couldn't defend himself. It is day one. We have long odds of lynching scum (but we should lynch). We can afford to wait, to lynch a low-poster or someone who stands out, rather than going for the "informative" lynch - which is all conjecture especially if we get a "greater good" lynch where everyone who votes just posts "I think this lynch gives the most information".
That's too easy a cop-out for people to jump on the bandwagon without risking their skin if the lynchee comes up inno.

Instead of lynching him today, give him a chance to talk tomorrow, if you then don't like what he has to say, make a case.
For the person silenced tomorrow, scummy behavior on day 1 can be attached to cases, that person then has the additional handicap of being silenced when he wants to make a defense, but the grounds of condemning him are at the least based on a case of scumminess.

Though I agree with your reasoning I think it is partially based on a misunderstanding of my reasons for voting Okaros. Might be I wasn't clear enough originally, I do have a habit of assuming that everyone else follow the same convoluted thought process that I do.

My argument is not that it's inherently right to lynch the silenced player on day 1. In fact, I would not have advocated that originally. However, the polarization (perhaps a bit too strong a word for the situation, but it serves all the same) of the thread following Osseric's original attack on Okaros has in my opinion created an environment where the lynch of Okaros will produce more viable information than any other choice at this point.

You might be right that such a choice could lead to a general distrust of silenced players, but it does not have to. It's a simple choice we make and most players should be able to recognize the reason for that distrust and make choices accordingly. To an extent I feel your argument is similar to the whole idea that some people are to disruptive to be allowed to live. No one are inherently disruptive, we make the choice to allow them to be and I feel it would be the same with your theory as to the consequence of lynching Okaros today.

[Sorrit]

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

[Tulas Shorn]

Holy Pants people, 5 pages?

It better'd be entirely dragon secks.

Going to read up now.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

[Sorrit]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

I've found that treating the herd as a bunch of morons becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. For once I thought it could be interesting to approach this game as a gathering of functioning people. The worst thing that could happen is that I'll end up being justified in stamping the entire HHM with a great red MORON stamp for all future reference.

It's a win win situation really.

Now, following my line of reasoning Okaros ends up being lynched through no fault - no action really - of his own. It's frustrating for him to be sure, and I would have covered SH in the liquid ejaculations of my rage if I had been in his position. All the same it seems to me to be a good choice at this point simply for the information it will provide.

This post has been edited by Sorrit: 10 January 2012 - 11:40 AM

[Karatallid]

Hehe, you're amusing SL. So I think I need to clarify that line that you have brought up.

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, we can break it down into a decision tree:

First, how likely is the silenced one to be evil?

If Okaros was UB or BB, he would be in a precarious position considering all the attention he will garner, especially if he posts the wrong pictures and calls even more attention to himself. In general, I think probabilistically speaking, scum are more liable to play it moderately safe on day 1 and hide in the crowd rather than making a ballsy move. That doesn't discount the more likely possibility that UB or BB will be silenced later in the game...

but initially, since the silence probably was submitted to JA before the beginning of the game, I think a silenced person is more likely to be one of us selected at random.

Second, both scum know each other despite not being able to communicate. I think this can play out in several ways, but I think I will hold speculation till later in the day so as not to let the scum try to act in a way opposite to the speculations.

Third and finally, I think there are subtle, maybe unintentional, efforts of people to style themselves in a certain way through their texts. For instance, Osseric with several uses of the phrase "ignorant masses" which I would associate with someone implying they are a townie or even RI role.

Doing a dkt, but this stands out. It is not cool to PI people day one after a few hours into the game and it is even less cool to out inno roles like you just did.

It doesn't really make sense that I would finger Osseric as RI and then vote for him. A more careful read shows that I am considering subtle comments by people that are used to make them seem one way or another (kind of like the ever so popular "he talks about healers and therefore he must be a healer" or alternatively "we townies think" when the person is actually scum).

What I'm actually trying to say is I think Osseric is stressing words that associate him with town ("masses") and rolelessness ("ignorant"). I don't actually think he is RI. I think he is scum trying to blend in. I still remember that game, maybe 10 or so games back?, where scum slipped up and talked about town as if he was not a part of it. A quick lynch of his ass turned up the fact that he was indeed scum (a very surprising mistake for one of the Malazan mafia people, but there it was).

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

Fuck, wrong person.

Remove vote
Vote Karatallid.

So was there something else that made me vote worthy or was that the only thing your case on me was based upon?

And I've been wanting to simplify that post that you so kindly quoted. On day 1 in a Benses game, I think we have these three case categories:

• The Silenced - scum or town?
• Interactions Between Players - do we expect a certain behavior for scum (distancing or interaction) and can we call out people because of this expectation?
• Word/phrase Choices - does the way a player speak or the words and phrases they use indicate their orientation in the game? are they signaling? are they implying something?

Initially, at least the last two points are what most mafia games are built on day 1. Later on we will have the lynch CF and a line of voters to analyze, but day 1 is about getting at subtleties and trying to pick a needle out of a haystack (which is why lynches on day 1 are notoriously unsuccessful). Also, day 1 is considered successful with large amounts of thoughtful text, so we can get reads on players, which is why, as i believe would be the case with lynching Okaros, day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

[Karatallid]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

I've found that treating the herd as a bunch of morons becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. For once I thought it could be interesting to approach this game as a gathering of functioning people. The worst thing that could happen is that I'll end up being justified in stamping the entire HHM with a great red MORON stamp for all future reference.

It's a win win situation really.

Now, following my line of reasoning Okaros ends up being lynched through no fault - no action really - of his own. It's frustrating for him to be sure, and I would have covered SH in the liquid ejaculations of my rage if I had been in his position. All the same it seems to me to be a good choice at this point simply for the information it will provide.

Here's hoping for more than sheeple... So far so good though right?

[Tulas Shorn]

Good heavens, what a misappropriation of logic and rhetoric we have on this thread.

Decision Trees? Bullet Points? Yikes.

All in the name of wifom over the first silenced player? Right now, I would consider voting for the most flagrant offender of this dead-end line of reasoning, except he already has 3 votes.

Instead, I will vote for someone who has posted much, said little.

Vote Kessobahn

[Tulas Shorn]

And seriously Karat...are you going to make us a Powerpoint presentation as well?

[Sheltatha Lore]

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Hehe, you're amusing SL. So I think I need to clarify that line that you have brought up.

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, we can break it down into a decision tree:

First, how likely is the silenced one to be evil?

If Okaros was UB or BB, he would be in a precarious position considering all the attention he will garner, especially if he posts the wrong pictures and calls even more attention to himself. In general, I think probabilistically speaking, scum are more liable to play it moderately safe on day 1 and hide in the crowd rather than making a ballsy move. That doesn't discount the more likely possibility that UB or BB will be silenced later in the game...

but initially, since the silence probably was submitted to JA before the beginning of the game, I think a silenced person is more likely to be one of us selected at random.

Second, both scum know each other despite not being able to communicate. I think this can play out in several ways, but I think I will hold speculation till later in the day so as not to let the scum try to act in a way opposite to the speculations.

Third and finally, I think there are subtle, maybe unintentional, efforts of people to style themselves in a certain way through their texts. For instance, Osseric with several uses of the phrase "ignorant masses" which I would associate with someone implying they are a townie or even RI role.

Doing a dkt, but this stands out. It is not cool to PI people day one after a few hours into the game and it is even less cool to out inno roles like you just did.

It doesn't really make sense that I would finger Osseric as RI and then vote for him. A more careful read shows that I am considering subtle comments by people that are used to make them seem one way or another (kind of like the ever so popular "he talks about healers and therefore he must be a healer" or alternatively "we townies think" when the person is actually scum).

What I'm actually trying to say is I think Osseric is stressing words that associate him with town ("masses") and rolelessness ("ignorant"). I don't actually think he is RI. I think he is scum trying to blend in. I still remember that game, maybe 10 or so games back?, where scum slipped up and talked about town as if he was not a part of it. A quick lynch of his ass turned up the fact that he was indeed scum (a very surprising mistake for one of the Malazan mafia people, but there it was).

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

Fuck, wrong person.

Remove vote
Vote Karatallid.

So was there something else that made me vote worthy or was that the only thing your case on me was based upon?

And I've been wanting to simplify that post that you so kindly quoted. On day 1 in a Benses game, I think we have these three case categories:

• The Silenced - scum or town?
• Interactions Between Players - do we expect a certain behavior for scum (distancing or interaction) and can we call out people because of this expectation?
• Word/phrase Choices - does the way a player speak or the words and phrases they use indicate their orientation in the game? are they signaling? are they implying something?

Initially, at least the last two points are what most mafia games are built on day 1. Later on we will have the lynch CF and a line of voters to analyze, but day 1 is about getting at subtleties and trying to pick a needle out of a haystack (which is why lynches on day 1 are notoriously unsuccessful). Also, day 1 is considered successful with large amounts of thoughtful text, so we can get reads on players, which is why, as i believe would be the case with lynching Okaros, day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

1. is wifom,

2. is only to be established by visible interaction, the best of which is building a train on someone and see who vehemently defends;
3. is what you use on osseric and I use on you. The issue is this: both our cases are based on lingo. You say Osseric fails to blend in, I say you are signalling him as a potential town (roled) player, which is bad conduct for a townie. If you manage to get the lynch on him, that's the test of your theory. If not, then you singled him out. Scum then has two options: let him live and see what town does (aka sowing doubt) or kill him. Which is obviously a loss for town (which he is then proven to be), and doubly so if he is roled.

[Sorrit]

Tulas Shorn, on 10 January 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Good heavens, what a misappropriation of logic and rhetoric we have on this thread.

Decision Trees? Bullet Points? Yikes.

All in the name of wifom over the first silenced player? Right now, I would consider voting for the most flagrant offender of this dead-end line of reasoning, except he already has 3 votes.

Instead, I will vote for someone who has posted much, said little.

Vote Kessobahn

Are you kidding? This is a great day 1.

[Eloth]

Osseric, on 09 January 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 09 January 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

I'm not complaining about your case.

It has its own Vizzinian rationale.

I'm curious if you actually expect it to go anywhere, though.

Do I honestly expect it to go anywhere? No.

The only reaction I've gotten so far was vehement opposition.

I still want it to though..

So he has received a bit of pressure here and wonders why no one has agreed with him..

Osseric, on 09 January 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 09 January 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

No, it's a reasonable idea - UB making BB more legitimate by afflicting him with silence, giving him shelter from Day 1 antics

But how can this not be WIFOM, as GL has wittily named it?

Because a smart UB would know that we expect that and wait a couple days to get some townies first, ad nauseum

Damn. I was hoping no one would bring up WIFOM. That word can easily invalidate an argument.

@engorged words. But he would know that we know that he knows that we know that we can expect him to silence townies first, so he silences himself or his killer first.

Obvious WIFOM, yes. Merely presenting a theory other than HE SAID KNIFE! HE MUST BE KILLER!

Gets a bit defensive of his own case yet...

Path-Shaper, on 10 January 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

It is Day 1. 24 hours and 21 minutes remaining

14 Players still alive: Atrahal, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Karatallid, Kessobahn, Korlat, Okaros, Olar Ethil, Osseric, Sheltatha Lore, Silanah, Sorrit, Tiamatha, Tulas Shorn

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Galayn Lord ( Korlat )
1 Vote for Okaros ( Osseric )
1 Vote for Korlat ( Tiamatha )
2 Votes for Osseric ( Karatallid, Kessobahn )

Players not voted: Atrahal, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Okaros, Olar Ethil, Sheltatha Lore, Silanah, Sorrit, Tulas Shorn

When he starts getting vote pressure

Olar Ethil, on 10 January 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

my drinking has increased my confidence that wifom benefits no one in this game except scum and so to make it the focal point of day one discussion effectively makes you scum.

vote osseric

Someone comes along and diverts attention away from him

[Sorrit]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Hehe, you're amusing SL. So I think I need to clarify that line that you have brought up.

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, we can break it down into a decision tree:

First, how likely is the silenced one to be evil?

If Okaros was UB or BB, he would be in a precarious position considering all the attention he will garner, especially if he posts the wrong pictures and calls even more attention to himself. In general, I think probabilistically speaking, scum are more liable to play it moderately safe on day 1 and hide in the crowd rather than making a ballsy move. That doesn't discount the more likely possibility that UB or BB will be silenced later in the game...

but initially, since the silence probably was submitted to JA before the beginning of the game, I think a silenced person is more likely to be one of us selected at random.

Second, both scum know each other despite not being able to communicate. I think this can play out in several ways, but I think I will hold speculation till later in the day so as not to let the scum try to act in a way opposite to the speculations.

Third and finally, I think there are subtle, maybe unintentional, efforts of people to style themselves in a certain way through their texts. For instance, Osseric with several uses of the phrase "ignorant masses" which I would associate with someone implying they are a townie or even RI role.

Doing a dkt, but this stands out. It is not cool to PI people day one after a few hours into the game and it is even less cool to out inno roles like you just did.

It doesn't really make sense that I would finger Osseric as RI and then vote for him. A more careful read shows that I am considering subtle comments by people that are used to make them seem one way or another (kind of like the ever so popular "he talks about healers and therefore he must be a healer" or alternatively "we townies think" when the person is actually scum).

What I'm actually trying to say is I think Osseric is stressing words that associate him with town ("masses") and rolelessness ("ignorant"). I don't actually think he is RI. I think he is scum trying to blend in. I still remember that game, maybe 10 or so games back?, where scum slipped up and talked about town as if he was not a part of it. A quick lynch of his ass turned up the fact that he was indeed scum (a very surprising mistake for one of the Malazan mafia people, but there it was).

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

Fuck, wrong person.

Remove vote
Vote Karatallid.

So was there something else that made me vote worthy or was that the only thing your case on me was based upon?

And I've been wanting to simplify that post that you so kindly quoted. On day 1 in a Benses game, I think we have these three case categories:

• The Silenced - scum or town?
• Interactions Between Players - do we expect a certain behavior for scum (distancing or interaction) and can we call out people because of this expectation?
• Word/phrase Choices - does the way a player speak or the words and phrases they use indicate their orientation in the game? are they signaling? are they implying something?

Initially, at least the last two points are what most mafia games are built on day 1. Later on we will have the lynch CF and a line of voters to analyze, but day 1 is about getting at subtleties and trying to pick a needle out of a haystack (which is why lynches on day 1 are notoriously unsuccessful). Also, day 1 is considered successful with large amounts of thoughtful text, so we can get reads on players, which is why, as i believe would be the case with lynching Okaros, day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

1. is wifom,

2. is only to be established by visible interaction, the best of which is building a train on someone and see who vehemently defends;
3. is what you use on osseric and I use on you. The issue is this: both our cases are based on lingo. You say Osseric fails to blend in, I say you are signalling him as a potential town (roled) player, which is bad conduct for a townie. If you manage to get the lynch on him, that's the test of your theory. If not, then you singled him out. Scum then has two options: let him live and see what town does (aka sowing doubt) or kill him. Which is obviously a loss for town (which he is then proven to be), and doubly so if he is roled.

Your nr. 3 there could be applied in opposition of pretty much any case made on anything other than a direct find.

[Eloth]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

When that is said: It's a shitty deal for Okaros, but the discussion that has blossomed up as a result of his silencing makes me think he'll be the best option for a lynch today. If he turns up innocent there's some value in examining his attackers, and if he turns up guilty, well then we've got our work cut out for us.

Okaros

You come on after osseric receives 3 votes and agree with what he says and vote along with him, which I find interesting.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

I've found that treating the herd as a bunch of morons becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. For once I thought it could be interesting to approach this game as a gathering of functioning people. The worst thing that could happen is that I'll end up being justified in stamping the entire HHM with a great red MORON stamp for all future reference.

It's a win win situation really.

Now, following my line of reasoning Okaros ends up being lynched through no fault - no action really - of his own. It's frustrating for him to be sure, and I would have covered SH in the liquid ejaculations of my rage if I had been in his position. All the same it seems to me to be a good choice at this point simply for the information it will provide.

see, it is this underlined bit that I so dislike. It is very arbitrary, "take one for the team". Any townie ought to be willing to do that but I just can't see how it is going to help on a day 1, when we have so many people still trying to find their feet. Arbitrary lynches are useful to close lines of enquiry and to settle claim-and-counterclaim reveals, but not to open them.
I share your hope for mafia to be a game of individuals instead of becoming a herd-animal being led, though.

[Tulas Shorn]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Tulas Shorn, on 10 January 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Good heavens, what a misappropriation of logic and rhetoric we have on this thread.

Decision Trees? Bullet Points? Yikes.

All in the name of wifom over the first silenced player? Right now, I would consider voting for the most flagrant offender of this dead-end line of reasoning, except he already has 3 votes.

Instead, I will vote for someone who has posted much, said little.

Vote Kessobahn

Are you kidding? This is a great day 1.

Yeah, if you're a symp.

I agree though, that this is some of the best Day 1 activity we've seen recently. And by activity, I mean dragonmasturbation.