[Galain]

Ruse, on 01 December 2011 - 04:34 AM, said:

Thyrllan, on 01 December 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

I should clarify a bit, I guess. I mean that there are no technical symps - ie no one will CF as town when they are really scum. But there are still liable to be lesser scum that will act sympish because they are not super-important (you know, the Gongsun Kang or Ma Dai equivalents of this game). Because there's no point to a town CF for a character we can verify is scum. So yeah there's been plenty of sympish behaviour and like most games I'm sure most of it is from innos, but I don't think it likely there are any technical symps. It just doesn't fit the theme/mechanics (you can't have role succession into later games of made-up characters).

I'm not trying to commit to any diabolical plan here, I just want town to be better prepared for this game and have an actual shot at winning.

I'm still not sure what Thyr was getting at here. I mean it looks like from the scenes that P-S has posted that succession within the game itself is likely, bit why would that exclude symps?

I agree that Rashan was an odd choice, from memory they had a couple of votes day 1, but I don't remember anyone particularly focussing on them, or Rash focussing anyone else either.

I've got to head to work, will be back on later.

Since D'rek was either an inno or a symp herself, I don't see any point in dwelling on this bit of speculation. We have to assume there are symps until proven otherwise. Also don't think trying to puzzle out the reasons for Rashan being NKed should be on anyone's priority list, nor why you think it's odd. He was not a killer, so the scum killed him - I don't think there's anything more we can read from the situation that isn't so mired in WIFOM as to be useless. There are too many players left in the game to try to read anything into NK choices at this point.


To me you are asking all the wrong questions. Why aren't you focusing on people who are alive? Seems like you're trying to keep us looking back instead of forwards.

[Galain]

Anomandaris, on 01 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Seems like I missed an awful lot going on. Very surprised people tried to build a case on the fact I said two and fro - given that the voting at the time was 3v3 so that was pretty much an accurate description of the proceedings at that time. If you deliberately look for the same choice of words its easy to make links between people.

The amount of people surprised by the cf's for example is in my view quite odd and i could build a case on signalling from that with about as much credibility as that ruse one had. Also are people trying to guess the night kill targets and thats why they cant believe who the killers are going for? Dislike when players self vote but it was for the best, if thyr had of been about today the game would have been held up with another day of debate between players looking for their lynch and it would have givent hem a free kill of rashan.

Looking through all the players and trying to ignore osserics boner for me its clear a few players are pushing the game the way they want it to go. its not always a scum tactic but as an inno tactic when you are trying to find players it makes it very hard for everyone else given that we do not know their allegiance. Most notable in this group are in particular order - tennes, osseric, galain and emurlahn. A few players arent on very much, myself and spite most notably. Then we have the middle group players who seem like they want to push things (hp, ruse and atrahal) and those willing the simply follow the herd (gamelon, meanas, omtose)


<snip>

Galain, - very suspicious in my book. given thyrs innocence strong possibility of fake symping. there was a lot of discussion about galain symping thyr and he continued to do it even yesterday. he pretty much started the ruse train yesterday and he has had a few posts which were very contradictory.

Galain, on 30 November 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

Hmm, I'm usually a bit reluctant to post signalling cases, as usually they pan out to be, to make use of what seems to be becoming a common phrase, farts in the wind. But perhaps it has some relevance in the situation.

Here's Ruse's first post of substance:

/quote from ruse here (removed for tags as below)

I noticed this phrase here, which popped up a couple of posts later in a similar sort of post by Anomandaris:

/quote from me here

Made me think perhaps Anomandaris was trying to let Ruse know that he was her symp. Later on I had a look over Ruse...it was perhaps slightly kinder than it should have been. Ruse comes back and says:

Ruse, on 30 November 2011 - 01:01 AM, said:

Oh piss, didn't see your post on me, Galain.

Thanks dude, now I look like a low poster who's seen their name and come when called.
<.<

Now, what if Ruse thinks I'm her symp because of the way I was mildly positive about her contribution? In that light, this post reads like an admonishment for letting their master look bad.

It's kind of tenuous, and as I said I normally don't try to make these kinds of cases because I don't think they hold a lot of water, but I thought it was worth putting out there since these two are being discussed.

Galain, on 30 November 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

Actually, you know what?

Vote Ruse

I still don't fully believe my own case, but then I'm not convinced by what's against Thyrllan either. Meh...should have tried harder to find something, I guess. The train analysis pointing to Ruse is probably the strongest piece of evidence out there, so I'll go with it.

<snip>

vote galain

Its more likely in my mind that galain is a symp, but its a very valid killer tactic to cosy up to innos and fake symp them. If spite or meanas are scum, theres very little chance of catching them, but i think its a good chance that the scum is spread between the pushy and want to be pushy group.

Sorry, where's the contradiction here?

[Emurlahn]

Osseric, on 02 December 2011 - 12:04 AM, said:

Ok, on a reread of Mockra's posts, I don't really see a connection with Ruse the way Emur paints it. Yes, Mockra voted for Thyrllan rather than Ruse, but actually that was quite consistent, since Mockra had numerous times said that Thyr seemed suspicious to them for various reasons. In addition, Mockra also puts some pressure on Ruse, asking them more than once to either up their game and contribute more or complaining when he felt Ruse was just ignoring him. Moreover, Mockra states that his suspects, after Thyrllan, were Ruse, HP, and maybe Ano - all of which is consistent with everything he had posted in the past.

The more I looked at, I have to say the less suspicious I became of Mockra.

The Thyr vote isn't the suspicious part. Please read all the way through my argument. Mockra said he would be around until lynch, but when we were looking for people to switch to Ruse, he (imo) pretended he wasn't there. He would have been enough to get the vote, and a lynch at all would have been impossible if not for Thyr voting against herself. It really jumped out at me, personaly.

[Osseric]

Ok, so what can be said about vocal Emurlahn? Well, the worst thing one can say about him is that he's been the hammer on both occasions so far.

However, there is a distinct pattern to Emur's play. Lots of posts, most very short, most having nothing directly to do with the game. But that in itself is no crime. But a certain other thing stood out for me. I've included quite a few of Emur's posts below, see if you can spot it (note: some of the posts have been cut, but you can go and see the full posts for yourselves):

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

Spite, on 28 November 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

The triple voting makes me laugh. A certain mafia player has been lynched the past 2 games for double voting on day 1. He claims he is trying to break the habit of town lynching people for shitty signaling cases, as they're never true.

Aaaaand the reaction I was looking for. (Mockra)

What about Mockra's reaction did you like?

Also, Kesso should be joining us soon, it appears. NEKKID

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch.

Whiney people should shut the fuck up.

So what are we doing? I've lost my train of thought in all the bitching.

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

I don't know kesso, what do YOU think?

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

Imo, spite is equally likely to be scum or inno.

Thinking about it leads my mind in circles, so I'm done with that.

Emurlahn, on 29 November 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

Spite, on 29 November 2011 - 12:31 AM, said:

I've got to bug out for the night and I don't think that I will be back on before night times out. Most likely a lynch will have gone through before then anyway. I have my inital reactions to a few people so most likely I'm wrong and they are all innos. So based on that logic I should pick someone that I have absolutely no read on and go with it. Osseric, Tiamatha or Meanas maybe?

I'll leave my vote where it's at on the off chance I will be able to log in later tonight but if not then there is at least a vote out there to be used or abused.

What about HP, Omtose, and Ruse? Do you have a feel on the non-posters? Tennes? It's too early to have feels on people, except the few highest posters.

Emurlahn, on 29 November 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

So he won't come back to comment, you say? No point in waiting, then.

Remove Vote

Vote Kesso

Emurlahn, on 30 November 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

Meanas, on 30 November 2011 - 08:26 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 28 November 2011 - 11:22 PM, said:

It is Day 1, 16 hours and 40 minutes are left in the day.

17 players alive: Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Galain, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Kessobahn, Meanas, Mockra, Omtose, Osseric, Rashan, Ruse, Spite, Tennes, Thryllan, Tiamatha

9 votes to lynch, 9 to go to night.

1 vote Galain: Rashan
1 vote Tennes: Tiamatha
2 votes Rashan: Spite, Mockra
2 votes Thyrllan: Galain, Emurlahn
1 vote Mockra: Osseric
1 vote Kesso: Thryllan



17 Players still alive,

Players not voting
Anomandaris, Atrahal, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Kessobahn, Meanas, Omtose, Ruse, Tennes

Galain swapped votes to Kesso right after Atrahal showed up and voted Kesso. Mockra came in and voted Thyr, along with Kesso, making it 3-all. Galain is suspicious for jumping. The vote for Thyr could have been signalling and he was eager to drop it when a better choice showed up. It could also be just flat out fake-symping from Galain.

Could be either/or, but when in doubt, vote for the symped, not the symp.

Vote Thyrllan

I was just looking at Meanas' posts to see if I actually believed he forgot he was playing. I expected to find suspicious behavior, but he actually did a good job of summing up for himself, kinda.

This post, especially. I must have missed or skimmed this the first time. I think this is a good point, possibly. I still see thyrllan as an interesting lynch, so.

Remove Vote

Vote Thyrllan

[Osseric]

Emurlahn, on 30 November 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

That being said, I don't count out Ruse or Anomandaris. They both are (somewhat) low posters, but they seem like they're trying. I get stronger vibes from Tennes, but he makes good posts, so I hesitate to lynch him yet. Of course, that's a perfect place for scum to hide. My head!

Emurlahn, on 30 November 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

I voted you with 10 hours left, I think. Really though, you seem like the best lynch. Would you like to present a decent alternative? I've looked at the other cases and found your suspicious behavior the most interesting, so that's where my vote goes. Nothing wrong with showing solidarity.

Emurlahn, on 30 November 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

Goddammit get out of my head. I agree with EVERYTHING you just said.

I think that's a quite fine alternative. Now if someone could do some digging? I won't have time to re-read until later tonight, which will be after the deadline.

Does Tennes have a lot of possible connections? I love that, if they do CF scum.

Emurlahn, on 01 December 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

Someone needs to log on, or switch to Thyr. Or multiple people from Thyr need to switch to Ruse.

Emurlahn, on 01 December 2011 - 03:06 AM, said:

Interesting choice.

I will ask one final time, everyone okay with me hammering Thyr?

Emurlahn, on 01 December 2011 - 03:40 AM, said:

Interesting that Rashan was inno.

Anyone have thoughts after the deaths?

I'm gonna go crazy tomorrow re-reading the thread. No distractions this time.

Also, was HP accused of symping Ruse? I can't remember and can't look currently. The showing up slightly late thing seemed weird, ESPECIALLY throwing the vote on Ruse instead of Thyr, the more obvious choice for a last second panic vote. Agreed?

Emurlahn, on 01 December 2011 - 03:46 AM, said:

Hood, on 01 December 2011 - 03:36 AM, said:

yeah i know that no people will come on and say that i am scum cause i got on right after the lynch and voted which is moronic as long as i have been playing i have never seen scum do that ever but what ever i should be a easy lynch as i am not really hear often to defend myself and am a little crazy but we should seriously take a harder look at ruse and ando that is were my vote is going tomorrow

My post saying this exact thing was a x-post with this one, just so you know. Hilarity. 2 days of town lynches and you're this disturbed? Scum is a minority, this isn't a faction game.

Osseric, on 01 December 2011 - 03:40 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 01 December 2011 - 03:35 AM, said:

The servants knew better than to disturb their lord when he was writing. Yoshimura Yukisama wrote his characters with a searing intensity that resulted in beautiful characters that lept from their page. And that same intensity would be turned upon anyone foolish enough to intrude. Studious and upright, Yoshimura spent as much time immersed in Chinese classics and with his writing brush as he did wielding his spear. It was not unusual for him to spend an entire night with both of these tools, so it wasnt until almost mid-day when the servants decided to check upon their master. Sprawled across his writing table, with a mix of ink and blood marring his kimono and the tatami mats, Yoshimura Yukisama was very very dead. Now would likely begin a most terrible struggle of succession amongst his small army of sons.

Rashan (Tapper) is dead. He was Yoshimura Yukisama, Loyal to the Shogun

It is Day 3, 36 hours are left in the day.

13 players alive: Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Galain, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Meanas, Mockra, Omtose, Osseric, Ruse, Spite, Tennes,

7 votes to lynch

No one has voted.

Interesting selection for an NK for scum - Rashan was getting a little heat today. But what do people think of PS' last line there - if we can read anything from the scenes, then I would say that Rashan was roled, and someone succeeds to that role? Or is it just flowery description?

Good catch. Someone go back through his posts and look for a code, maybe he included one for later game and the killer found it. Does seem like an odd choice, although he was a higher poster, helpful and levelheaded. I'll do it tomorrow if I remember.

Emurlahn is not so much indecisive (though there is an element of that - everything is possibly, maybe, could be, I-suspect-all-these-people-but-ow-my-head-hurts) as unwilling to give his own opinion. He loves to direct questions to others but very rarely offers his own thoughts. He's like the kid who hung out at the edge of your circle of friends, listening to everyone else but unwilling to speak up himself with anything that might direct everyone's gaze to himself. The only time he posted at length was to defend himself after his reaction to Kesso's death was questioned.

That is, until his case on Mockra, which certainly brings the pattern of his play thus far to a screeching halt. But is that indicative of someone who's conscious that it's about time for them to step up? I'm not sure, but when I went back through Mockra's posts myself, I didn't get anywhere near the same feeling Emur did.

I find his style of play very interesting, and I'd like to know what others think.

[Galain]

Also, it feels like Ano's categorization in the post above is deeply flawed. He says the following:

- Players who are "pushing the game in the direction they want it to go": Tennes, Osseric, Galain, Emurlahn.

Well first off I haven't seen Tennes dominating the thread and controlling discussion. Osseric, myself and Emurlahn, perhaps you could make a case for (although my impression of Emurlahn is that he buzzes around making summaries but not necessarily generating a whole lot of fresh content...probably need to go and take a look back to prove/disprove that one to myself). But apart from very demonstratively discussing the flaws in HP's arguments, Tennes is not doing the same thing as these other players.

- Players who aren't on very much: Anomandaris, Spite.

Spite yes, because he has admitted he wasn't going to be around a lot. But yourself? No - you've certainly been around as much as Gamelon, Ruse, Meanas and HP. I don't see why you get to slot yourself into the "Ignore me, I'm never around" category. Seems like you're trying to hijack your own summary to cast you in a more positive light.

- Players who "seem like they want to push things": HP, Ruse, Atrahal.

What is Ruse doing on this list? Point to one instance where she has provided some content/useful info. Feels very out of place. Ditto HP - although I guess he has at least made some accusations in that punctuation-less slurry he's using to try to disguise himself. Why he's so scared someone will alt-guess him, I do not know. Meanas and Omtose are surely better fits in this category.

- Players who "simply follow the herd": Gamelon, Meanas, Omtose.

Once again, don't see how this is at all valid. Omtose has been fuelling an awful lot of discussion with his train analysis and case on Ruse yesterday. Meanas hasn't been around a lot, but has seemed willing to give his opinion when he is around.




So basically, that summary is rubbish and looks like a poorly disguised way of trying to redirect people's attentions and views of other players. It also only serves to fan the flames of what looks like symping of Ruse. I wasn't sure yesterday, but both yours and Ruse's reaction today has made my suspicions a bit more solid.

Vote Ruse

EDIT: X-post with Osseric

This post has been edited by Galain: 02 December 2011 - 12:47 AM

[Osseric]

Emurlahn, on 02 December 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Osseric, on 02 December 2011 - 12:04 AM, said:

Ok, on a reread of Mockra's posts, I don't really see a connection with Ruse the way Emur paints it. Yes, Mockra voted for Thyrllan rather than Ruse, but actually that was quite consistent, since Mockra had numerous times said that Thyr seemed suspicious to them for various reasons. In addition, Mockra also puts some pressure on Ruse, asking them more than once to either up their game and contribute more or complaining when he felt Ruse was just ignoring him. Moreover, Mockra states that his suspects, after Thyrllan, were Ruse, HP, and maybe Ano - all of which is consistent with everything he had posted in the past.

The more I looked at, I have to say the less suspicious I became of Mockra.

The Thyr vote isn't the suspicious part. Please read all the way through my argument. Mockra said he would be around until lynch, but when we were looking for people to switch to Ruse, he (imo) pretended he wasn't there. He would have been enough to get the vote, and a lynch at all would have been impossible if not for Thyr voting against herself. It really jumped out at me, personaly.

Yes, but you can't know if he was there or not, unfortunately, so you're inserting theory rather than fact in there. Still, I would have felt more strongly that you had a point were it not for the fact that Mockra himself has attacked Ruse (ok, not that aggresively - but he was one of the first to do so), and has stated before that he suspects Ruse.

[Osseric]

Galain, on 02 December 2011 - 12:45 AM, said:

Also, it feels like Ano's categorization in the post above is deeply flawed. He says the following:

- Players who are "pushing the game in the direction they want it to go": Tennes, Osseric, Galain, Emurlahn.

Well first off I haven't seen Tennes dominating the thread and controlling discussion. Osseric, myself and Emurlahn, perhaps you could make a case for (although my impression of Emurlahn is that he buzzes around making summaries but not necessarily generating a whole lot of fresh content...probably need to go and take a look back to prove/disprove that one to myself). But apart from very demonstratively discussing the flaws in HP's arguments, Tennes is not doing the same thing as these other players.

- Players who aren't on very much: Anomandaris, Spite.

Spite yes, because he has admitted he wasn't going to be around a lot. But yourself? No - you've certainly been around as much as Gamelon, Ruse, Meanas and HP. I don't see why you get to slot yourself into the "Ignore me, I'm never around" category. Seems like you're trying to hijack your own summary to cast you in a more positive light.

- Players who "seem like they want to push things": HP, Ruse, Atrahal.

What is Ruse doing on this list? Point to one instance where she has provided some content/useful info. Feels very out of place. Ditto HP - although I guess he has at least made some accusations in that punctuation-less slurry he's using to try to disguise himself. Why he's so scared someone will alt-guess him, I do not know. Meanas and Omtose are surely better fits in this category.

- Players who "simply follow the herd": Gamelon, Meanas, Omtose.

Once again, don't see how this is at all valid. Omtose has been fuelling an awful lot of discussion with his train analysis and case on Ruse yesterday. Meanas hasn't been around a lot, but has seemed willing to give his opinion when he is around.




So basically, that summary is rubbish and looks like a poorly disguised way of trying to redirect people's attentions and views of other players. It also only serves to fan the flames of what looks like symping of Ruse. I wasn't sure yesterday, but both yours and Ruse's reaction today has made my suspicions a bit more solid.

Vote Ruse

EDIT: X-post with Osseric

I agree with this Galain. I too thought that a lot of Ano's categorisations were off, but had forgotten to comment on it.

[Galain]

Osseric, on 02 December 2011 - 12:45 AM, said:

Emurlahn is not so much indecisive (though there is an element of that - everything is possibly, maybe, could be, I-suspect-all-these-people-but-ow-my-head-hurts) as unwilling to give his own opinion. He loves to direct questions to others but very rarely offers his own thoughts. He's like the kid who hung out at the edge of your circle of friends, listening to everyone else but unwilling to speak up himself with anything that might direct everyone's gaze to himself. The only time he posted at length was to defend himself after his reaction to Kesso's death was questioned.

That is, until his case on Mockra, which certainly brings the pattern of his play thus far to a screeching halt. But is that indicative of someone who's conscious that it's about time for them to step up? I'm not sure, but when I went back through Mockra's posts myself, I didn't get anywhere near the same feeling Emur did.

I find his style of play very interesting, and I'd like to know what others think.

Interesting points, and kind of confirms the impression of Emurlahn I posted in my previous post. I don't see anything wrong with prodding other people - I've been doing quite a lot of that myself as I feel direct confrontation on an issue tends to lead to better discussion. But reading over the posts you quoted there does seem to be an air of hesitance that seems almost put on. All those references to his poor head, etc. I've sometimes seen reticent scum play like this - you get some people who struggle to play with the knowledge that all the people they are accusing are innos and end up accusing no-one because of it.


But having said that, Emurlahn has just stepped up and made a case. My initial impression was that it seemed to have been made in part out of an understanding that we need to start casting the net wider than just the one or two players who have been under the spotlight so far. I have to go to bed soon, but I'll take another look with a more critical eye and see what I think.

[Emurlahn]

Jesus, why don't you railroad a little harder? I really don't want to go through and respond to individual bolded sentences, so I'll try to just be general.

Day 1: I specifically said Thyrllan was suspicious, asked questions to her, didn't get responses. Voted Kesso for the lynch. Sure seems like making my own theories.

day 2: Pursued Thyrllan farther. Was not satisfied by the responses (until the end of the day, I might add). Day 2 felt like another day 1 to me, I didn't feel confident about much of anything. At the end, I wanted a Ruse vote. From the activities of other players, Ruse seems like a good target for scum.

Day 3: From the activities of MOCKRA himself, Mockra seems like a better target for scum. Completely seperate from anything to do with Ruse, Mockra is the scummiest to me. That seems like a far better lynch than getting rid of someone based on the actions of other people.

Hey look! I formed my own shit. I'm out of my day 2 blues, and I catch heat for it. \

To wrap up, Mockra is my main choice. I'm not goddamn SURE of it, it's mafia. Nothing is sure until the CF. But he's fucking slippery and scummy.

Really though, I'm presenting a (damn good, imo ) alternative to lynching in a preordained fashion.

Day 1: Kesso Vs Thyr.
Kesso lynched. "Oh noes he was innocent!"
Day 2: Thyr Vs Ruse - Thyr must be Scum because kesso was inno!
Thyr lynched. "Shit"
Day 3: Ruse Vs. Whoever - GUYS LETS DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ITS WORKING

I'm not saying Ruse isnt scum. He's high on my list, mostly because of the suspicious actions of other players. But Mockra is scum based on his own actions.

Boom.

[Emurlahn]

Okay. Sorry if the above post comes off as aggressive. I'm annoyed, a bit It's fine to prod, I suppose.

As to the "ow my head" deal, each instance of that has been because some idiot decides to bring up/try to interpret WIFOM, which is fucking stupid. No offense. I say ow my head so I don't have to say shut the fuck up with your circular thinking.

[Spite]

My obligatory modkill timer post. I'll be around next week promise. If that isn't good enough modkill me.

[Osseric]

Galain, on 02 December 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

But having said that, Emurlahn has just stepped up and made a case. My initial impression was that it seemed to have been made in part out of an understanding that we need to start casting the net wider than just the one or two players who have been under the spotlight so far. I have to go to bed soon, but I'll take another look with a more critical eye and see what I think.

Yes, the Mockra case does break the pattern quite drastically, as I admitted. Which is really the reason why I didn't then and there accuse Emur of anything, but was interested to see if other people thought there was something to this.

I'm not sure where my vote is going to go as yet. None of the cases so far (including my own) convince me. Yesterday I voted Ruse but that was because that's the one I considered more suspicious out of him and Thyrllan. If it comes to it I will vote Ruse again, but as well as the likes of Ano and Emur who I've pointed out, Tennes I believe might be a good lynch choice.

[Osseric]

Emurlahn, on 02 December 2011 - 01:07 AM, said:

Okay. Sorry if the above post comes off as aggressive. I'm annoyed, a bit It's fine to prod, I suppose.

As to the "ow my head" deal, each instance of that has been because some idiot decides to bring up/try to interpret WIFOM, which is fucking stupid. No offense. I say ow my head so I don't have to say shut the fuck up with your circular thinking.

Dude, everyone's entitled to question everyone else. I didn't get the same vibe off of a reread of Mockra as you did (and remember that I too had initially thought of Mockra as scummy) so to me it was natural to go and do a re-read on you and see what motivations you might have had for picking Mockra, and the rest led on from there. To respond to one thing you said in the post previous to this, another thing which struck me but which I didn't mention was your suspicion of Thyrllan. Yes, you stated it numerous times. But as for why? Well....that wasn't really there until the very very end, when you simply said because of the nature of her responses without delving into it. You asked some questions yes, but in the same way you asked questions of anyone else.

As you can see Emur, I haven't voted for you, so relax a bit. I'm doing the same as you, casting the net out wider than Ruse, for the very same reasons as you stated. Yes, that included you, but so what? As I said above, it was natural progression in my thinking.

[Emurlahn]

Again, my apologies. I get mad when people question that I'm contributing. I make big cases when there are big cases to make. Day 3 doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Galain]

Emurlahn, on 02 December 2011 - 01:05 AM, said:

Jesus, why don't you railroad a little harder? I really don't want to go through and respond to individual bolded sentences, so I'll try to just be general.

Day 1: I specifically said Thyrllan was suspicious, asked questions to her, didn't get responses. Voted Kesso for the lynch. Sure seems like making my own theories.

day 2: Pursued Thyrllan farther. Was not satisfied by the responses (until the end of the day, I might add). Day 2 felt like another day 1 to me, I didn't feel confident about much of anything. At the end, I wanted a Ruse vote. From the activities of other players, Ruse seems like a good target for scum.

Day 3: From the activities of MOCKRA himself, Mockra seems like a better target for scum. Completely seperate from anything to do with Ruse, Mockra is the scummiest to me. That seems like a far better lynch than getting rid of someone based on the actions of other people.

Hey look! I formed my own shit. I'm out of my day 2 blues, and I catch heat for it. \

To wrap up, Mockra is my main choice. I'm not goddamn SURE of it, it's mafia. Nothing is sure until the CF. But he's fucking slippery and scummy.

Really though, I'm presenting a (damn good, imo ) alternative to lynching in a preordained fashion.

Day 1: Kesso Vs Thyr.
Kesso lynched. "Oh noes he was innocent!"
Day 2: Thyr Vs Ruse - Thyr must be Scum because kesso was inno!
Thyr lynched. "Shit"
Day 3: Ruse Vs. Whoever - GUYS LETS DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ITS WORKING

I'm not saying Ruse isnt scum. He's high on my list, mostly because of the suspicious actions of other players. But Mockra is scum based on his own actions.

Boom.

I take your point about the processional feel of it all. I'd like to see Mockra respond to your allegations. And actually, I'm not sure how productive it is to be reinforcing the inevitability of a Ruse lynch with a vote on her at the moment. I still think Ruse is suspicious, but it is definitely worth casting about for other avenues of inquiry as well. My general belief is that if you're complaining about not having options beyond the obvious, it's your own duty to create some, so I'm glad that someone else is subscribing to the same philosophy. I'll try to do some better analysis tomorrow...hopefully I'll have a bit more time at work what with it being a Friday and all.


For the time being, I'm going to remove my Ruse vote in the hope that looking at a vote count and not seeing a clear leader will encourage others to engage their brains.

Remove Vote





EDIT: Added the vote removal.

This post has been edited by Galain: 02 December 2011 - 01:24 AM

[Mockra]

Ok, I'm here, reading up. I'll respond to as much as I can in the next 20 minutes or so and then I'll be back in an hour or two, and I should have plenty of time then.

[Mockra]

Emurlahn, on 01 December 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Just did an interesting reread. The people that stood out the most, or -actually- didn't stand out at all were Mockra and Tennes. They both have a few big posts, but they're mostly just a regurgitation of other people's information. So let me take a look. Mockra gave me a MUCH stronger scummy feeling, so I'll be looking at him first and Tennes later today.

Mockra:

NOTE: These are not all his posts. Just the ones I had comments on.

Mockra, on 28 November 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

Hello there. Seems like Spite decided to stir things up after the complaints of not enough activity. Quick summary so far? Yes please.

Samurai is both plural and singular (like "moose"); Meanas outed himself as the Shogun and then disappeared; Anomandaris mistook himself for Meanas; tea is a sensitive subject and worthy of inspiring votes; Rashan weirdly deflects from Anomandaris; Emur votes Osseric cause fuck Osseric; and Spite appears on thread and begs to be lynched but makes a half-decent point in the process.

Ah, day 1 comedy. So exciting!

As commented on at the time, this is a useless pointless summary. I'M HELPFUL GUYS!

Basically, I was trying to be funny; it was my first post, after all. Not much else I can really say. It was obviously day 1 and nothing had happened so how does a summary help anyone? I was just writing shit down as I read the thread for the first time. Anyway.

Quote

Mockra, on 28 November 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 07:17 PM, said:

Mockra, the Tea Party vote was a joke vote or an accusation of signaling based on the Tea Party in America that is anti-government currently. Rashan was saying that Galain is being anti-government (ie the good guys).

Really? Ok... I don't think I would have ever made that connection.

Of course you didn't make that connection. Because you wanted something useless and a joke to comment on so you didn't have to do any serious activity.

Well, I guess if you don't believe me you can make up any reason you want. If I recall it was you who kindly explained the joke to me and said yourself that it took you awhile to understand... Changing your story now?

Quote

Mockra, on 28 November 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Emurlahn, on 28 November 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

Mockra, on 28 November 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

Right, the Galain vote from Rashan does look like deflecting. Voting master over symp is definitely the best approach but I can't decide whether Rashan is symping Ano or you're symping Rashan. Spite if you are inno then why the hell would you triple-vote someone on day 1? I can't see how it does anything except cause confusion for town.

For now I'll leave my vote where it is. Rashan has some 'splaining to do.

Deflecting from what? Someone feeling the need to deflect from a day 1 single vote would be... not smart?

I like Rashan as a target, I suppose, but a deflection there seems unneeded.

Well, I guess taking the political joke into account it looks less like deflecting. But I still find the timing and target weird. So I'm not ready to dismiss it yet.

He is obsessed with a joke vote being deflecting. Almost as if he's saying "no look, my case is not useless! Look!"

This was so early on day 1, very little had happened at all. With almost nothing to go on and a lot of people not even posting yet, yeah, I didn't want to dismiss anything weird yet.

Quote

Mockra, on 29 November 2011 - 06:20 AM, said:

Thyrllan, on 28 November 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

<snip>


Wasabi christ! I've been here all of 2 seconds, it's day 1 and you now want "some actual comments" from me? Serious fukceroo business much? You're probably some lame-ass Uesugi lacky trying to act all serious cause you wish you had a real role

I don't like this at all. Asking for comments instead of deliberate nonsense is not unreasonable and this is exactly the kind of reaction that sets off alarm bells. His play has been consistent so far - which is to say, negligible - so for now I'm going to leave my vote here.

Remove vote

Vote Thyrllan


Rashan definitely overreacted to the tea party confusion, but at least he responded, unlike Thyrllan, who almost seems opposed to contribution.

Anyway, I'm out, I should be back right before deadline.

He said he'd be back right before deadline. Guess what he didn't do? I'm pretty sure he did this on day 2 as well.

I'll address this in a minute...

Quote

Mockra, on 29 November 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

Back. I tried to be here before the lynch but couldn't make it happen. I'm a little bit surprised that some people decided to give Thyr a pass; I think even his recent responses, where he actually makes complete sentences, are too sarcastic and defensive. He acts like we shouldn't even be questioning his play...

Thyrllan, on 29 November 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

So instead I will catch up and address outlying accusations and banality to which I doth take thee offenceth: (that's how they talk in old Japan right?)

Tiamatha, on 29 November 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

Thyrllan slipped up and hasn't helped town by staying silent.

I was absent. That happens sometimes. Laying it on a bit thick mr?

Ruse, on 29 November 2011 - 07:38 AM, said:

I don't get Thyr's weird statement. At first I thought I'd missed the explanation for it, but reading back Thyr's just sort of ignoring it. Although I'm not completely convinced it's really a good reason for a lynch. But pehaps it's too much to hope that someone would get 'syllables' and 'characters' confused as well as not be able to count particularly well.

No, I meant syllables. I don't know japanese characters at all, I have no idea how many would be in a name. And no it wasn't a PM to path-shaper, I was just making a 1st-post joke the same as yous guys' first posts about tea ceremonies and bowing and shit. And maybe some of you didn't get 14 syllable char names, but {a} there's such a thing as exaggeration and {b} this being feudal shogunate japan there are lots of long names. Maybe my role is Matsudaira Kurandonosuke Motoyasu? (No, it isn't, he's not born yet)

Atrahal, on 29 November 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

I looked over Thyr again, and I think that is a worthy train as well. I agreed he doesn't say much and seems to spend most of his time perpetuating or exhibiting confusion, a great way to look like a blundering inno. Also, the fact that not only did he not remove his vote from Kesso, but that he didn't even respond to Kesso's retort is suspicious. Frankly, I still find them both (Kesso and Thyr) suspicious, so I'll hold on Kesso for now.

Oh noes, I'm confused and blundering on day 1! Please Atrahal, elaborate on how you have such a complete knowledge of the entire game less than 24 hours into the first game of the series. Please, share with us this fountain of knowledge you posess...

This isn't strictly true - the complaint isn't that Thyr wasn't around but that his posts were entirely devoid of content. He obviously had time to make his "joke post" and call people idiots, but he didn't contribute to the discussion at all - and he didn't use his time to say, "Hey, I'm busy or something, I'll be around later". Using "I was absent" as an excuse glosses over the real issue. I also think the name explanation is a bit forced. Anyway, the fact that he says he's going to "address accusations" but really just blows everyone off is suspicious to me.

I need to read up on the Kesso lynch. HP's case in particular, I think, as it seemed to influence a lot of people. I should be around for awhile and then gone later on today.

Another massive post that really just says what everyone else had been saying, that Thyr wasn't being particularly responsive.

I don't think this is right. I was one of the first people to be suspicious of Thyr and I made comments on her play fairly frequently. I don't have time to go back and check at the moment but I also think I was the first person to address that post of hers I quoted (that you quoted just above).

[Mockra]

Emurlahn, on 01 December 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Mockra, on 30 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

Argh. Long day at work here. Glad to see discussion happening, though.

Ruse hasn't appeared since I said this last night -

Mockra, on 30 November 2011 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ruse, on 30 November 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

I'm all aloooooone. I think I have the worst timezone ever.

Ruse, instead of whining, maybe you should use your time to give your thoughts again? Except this time don't make a post right after saying, "Oops, got my facts wrong, guess that was all bullshit..." You're pretty much back where you were before Galain and whoever called you out, since you blatantly dismissed everything you said. So...try again?

I found his "Here's three or four sentences worth of thoughts - oh wait, it's all meaningless because I misread the thread" pretty weird, and since he didn't come back and even say anything, it's definitely suspicious. He's deliberately avoiding giving opinions on thread, and barely participating otherwise. The "to/fro" connection is interesting too.

Thyrllan has been my top suspect since the latter half of day 1, and I don't think that's changed. He's definitely participated a lot more since then but it bothers me that he won't come out and explain why he was being so evasive early on. It's just strange. Maybe that's unfair but my gut tells me something is up here.

Vote Thyrllan

I'm going to be gone for a bit but should be able to return before timeout, although maybe only for a short while, so I wanted to get my vote down just in case. The other players I suspect are Ruse, HP, and maybe Ano...I need to reread the case on Ano at some point, though.

He says he SHOULD be able to get back, again. I'm pretty certain he didn't. That seems like scum who sees that things are going the way they want (two inno lynches) and didn't bother to show back up.

Wait... So right here you say you're pretty certain I didn't show back up. But below:

Quote

Mockra, on 01 December 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

Galain, on 01 December 2011 - 01:25 AM, said:

Gamelon, on 01 December 2011 - 01:05 AM, said:

I'm going to have in leave in about 5 minutes, I hope those who haven't been around will show up to vote

Similarly, I'm not here for much longer. I know Emurlahn's around...anyone else here?

I'll be here off and on till timeout.

He did show up about an hour before lynch, actually. He didn't post after this, despite discussion to lynch Ruse, and he would have been the last needed vote in that chain of events.

So did you just not bother to go back and edit one sentence of your five sentence case on me to be accurate? This was in the same post, you know. Because you're right, I did show back up. And I guess you missed this next post of mine - which is hard to believe since it is DIRECTLY before the one you just quoted:

Mockra, on 01 December 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

Osseric, on 01 December 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

Mockra, on 30 November 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

Also, I just noticed something you said - "and then he says that they made a mistake by both making cases at the same time so their collusion was easier to spot by the likes of HP". I wonder if we're misunderstanding each other a bit? I'm saying that HP's case is that Atrahal and Galain actually DID NOT mean to post those cases - they only meant to have one person do it but they each thought it was themselves instead of the other person. That's what HP has said. It sounds to me like your interpretation of "mistake" is that they made the cases like they agreed to off-thread, but that plan turned out to be a mistake because it was too obvious.

No, no misunderstanding, I realise what you meant, but I was providing an alternate interpretation of what HP could have meant. But what is slightly irritating that I'm here replying to your posts rather than HP himself - he should come on and tell us where he stands on this issue now.

Ah, ok. Totally agreed about HP needing to show up.

So Ruse is getting lunch while the lynch goes down, eh? Not much of a defense. Ruse, you never even responded to me, what's the deal? Seems like you're just ignoring everyone.

I'm willing to switch my vote to Ruse if it's needed but hopefully people will show up and vote. I'll wait and see.

Not sure how you missed this.

Quote

Mockra, on 30 November 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

Osseric, on 30 November 2011 - 08:23 AM, said:

Mockra, on 30 November 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:

Is it me or are there a bunch of long quote blocks with no commentary after them on this page? It's such a tease.

Hood, on 30 November 2011 - 02:03 AM, said:

as you can see there was a almost a hour between there cases more then enough time for them to conlude and then mess up as to why the would go after the same person well that would have to be a mess up wouldn't it no right minded scum would both go after the same target unless they messed up
tennes the fact that people thought that I was kesso's symp speaks not to my symp hood but to their own lack of ability
mockra the only reason that scum would make the same case on a person is that they messed up it has happened before there for it is possible.
galain what else could you possibly say that you were in fact scum and that atrahal was your partner and that you had thought that you were suppose to make the case while atrahal thought that he was suppose to make the case you two still look scummy and much to chummy for my tastes
still getting caught up

I don't see how that lines up with your original story on this whole thing:

Hood, on 29 November 2011 - 03:02 AM, said:

So after going over the thread. Abit not with a fine tooth comb. But still I did read most everything. To my eyes this two posts are the most suspicious all game. When I see something like two people who just happen to make cases on the same person and post them a little while after each other. It seems to me that it smacks of people who can talk off thread agreeing that they need to go after ________ then both of them going after that same person at the same time. Of course they will say that Kesso was scummy enough to trip both of their radar at the same time. But none the less posting cases like this trips my radar.

Emphasis mine. So you're saying that from this first post you actually meant that they were two killers who got confused about who was supposed to make the case on Kesso? I guess you could interpret it that way but it reads to me like you suggested they were coordinating their attacks on purpose, not by mistake. And yeah, that is a ridiculous position because scum would probably not do that, but it just sounds to me like you made a shitty case and are trying to salvage it by changing the angle.

I'm looking hard, but I can't see the devastating contradiction that you can here, Mockra. Can you enlighten me? What I see is HP first saying that he feels that when two people make cases on the same person in quick succession, they're colluding off-thread and agreed to both attack that person....and then he says that they made a mistake by both making cases at the same time so their collusion was easier to spot by the likes of HP.

So where's the horrible contradiction? Both posts say that Atrahal and Galain agreed to attack Kessobahn - the later post just says they made a mistake in both attacking, with cases, at nearabouts the same time, when they should have come at Kesso from different angles. Have I missed something, because at the moment it seems to me that you're working quite hard to make something out of not much?

I think Tennes covered this but I found it hard to read his posting style. Basically, the original argument HP made was that the cases being posted so close together was indication of collusion off-thread - that is, direct agreement between Atrahal and Galain to team up and make cases on Kesso. This is supported primarily by how close together the cases were in time. Later, when someone brings up the fact that scum probably aren't so dumb that they'd make cases on the same person an hour apart, HP changes his story to say that Atrahal and Galain are suspicious because they must have agreed off thread but then messed up the execution on thread, and only one person should have posted the case.

I find this contradictory because HP is going about making his case in reverse order. A good case is based on connections that lead to a conclusion that implicates a player or players. HP has started with his conclusion of the guilty players and when one connection doesn't seem strong enough to support his conclusions, he makes up a different and opposite connection to support it instead. This is bogus because he's pushing his case pretty hard and ignoring almost everything else, but he had to change his story in order to keep the case potentially valid. For those reasons he's on my list and the way he's making his case is totally forced instead of natural.

Also, I just noticed something you said - "and then he says that they made a mistake by both making cases at the same time so their collusion was easier to spot by the likes of HP". I wonder if we're misunderstanding each other a bit? I'm saying that HP's case is that Atrahal and Galain actually DID NOT mean to post those cases - they only meant to have one person do it but they each thought it was themselves instead of the other person. That's what HP has said. It sounds to me like your interpretation of "mistake" is that they made the cases like they agreed to off-thread, but that plan turned out to be a mistake because it was too obvious.

This large post SEEMS helpful, but it is completely rehashing what multiple other people have said.

Actually, I was the first person to make that argument against HP. I was explaining it further because Osseric asked me to. It's nothing even close to "rehashing".

It seems like you are trying pretty hard to paint a scummy picture of me by rewriting history. Most of your points are factually inaccurate. In fact, the slips seem so obvious I wonder if you didn't make them on purpose.

I have to run for a bit but I'm going to be back to expand on this soon.

[Ruse]

Hmm, I'm still lynch candiate for today. Can't say I'm surprised!
Will have a proper read through and see what there is to be seen.