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So first off let me say I'm happy with the book and enjoyed it immensely. I'm glad we got so much climatic drama and resolution. But I can't help feeling that the drama and resolution was somewhat forced and that a little common sense could have skipped it all. It's very much like the Eagles in Lord of the Rings. So I don't really MIND it that much, but I would like to discuss it nonetheless and get some other opinions.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
2. They could have sailed.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
3. Sending the CG's heart to the Bonehunters seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So the victorious unopposed armies sent the vulnerable heart AWAY to the VULNERABLE army? Why? To be near Tavore's sword? She could have given the damn thing to them before separating! Or had the flying cockroach take the sword to the heart instead of the other way around. If they can trust it with CG's heart, they can trust it with a dang sword. Of course, the best solution of all would have been for the Bonehunters to have been with the other armies to begin with.
4. Having only the elite hero-type marines guard the CG seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
So maybe I'm wrong in some of these, and I hope I am. But I'm just not seeing military genius here. I really liked it when Ganoes teld QB and Kalem about how she's the greatest military mind of all time, I was looking forward to learning why all the pain and suffering. And then it turned out to be just a plot device to get maximum drama. Or am I wrong?
Tavore's Plan Was a Bad One
The invasion of FA lands made no sense
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#2
QuickTidal 
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Posted 26 August 2011 - 07:37 PM
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
So first off let me say I'm happy with the book and enjoyed it immensely. I'm glad we got so much climatic drama and resolution. But I can't help feeling that the drama and resolution was somewhat forced and that a little common sense could have skipped it all. It's very much like the Eagles in Lord of the Rings. So I don't really MIND it that much, but I would like to discuss it nonetheless and get some other opinions.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
The entire point was so that the FA would feel they weren't worth worrying much about as they were bound to die in the desert.
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
2. They could have sailed.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Again, see above for reasons. Beyond that, the FA spire was high ground, any invasion attempt by sea into that bay (unless by Hood himself) would have surely failed.
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
4. Having only the elite hero-type marines guard the CG seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
I think you are underestimating the logistics involved in the entire endeavor to be frank. Taking on the entire FA army at once? wtf? Were you reading the same book I was?
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
So maybe I'm wrong in some of these, and I hope I am. But I'm just not seeing military genius here. I really liked it when Ganoes teld QB and Kalem about how she's the greatest military mind of all time, I was looking forward to learning why all the pain and suffering. And then it turned out to be just a plot device to get maximum drama. Or am I wrong?
Did you read ALL the books? Not meaning to offend or anything, but Tavore proved a few times over that she was a very keen military mind well before TCG.
Imagine it like this:
In LOTR: ROTK Aragorn and his entire army take on the forces of Sauron at the Black Gates of Mordor....just to give Frodo a chance. That's it.
You can see this the same way. There were many converging plans in play and one of them was having the majority of the Bonehunters cross a seemingly uncrossable desert to distract the FA into thinking that they'd never do it, and even if they did they'd be next to dead. It allowed all the events that lead to the FA's downfall, Kaminsod's heart saved, and his eventual release. The march HAD a point, it just might not be one that SEEMS to make the most sense, but then Aragorn standing off against Sauron's entire forces just so Frodo could throw a ring into a volcano doesn't either...but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do...the honorable thing....
...you see, TCG more than anything was about how sometimes, doing something great, something completely selfless requires EVERYTHING you have, and sometimes it requires blind faith in a seemingly insane plan.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
#3
Goken
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Posted 26 August 2011 - 08:13 PM
Yay, thanks for humoring my musings. I appreciate the debate, it's fun to discuss the book we all enjoyed. That said... I'm not with you here.
The entire point was so that the FA would feel they weren't worth worrying much about as they were bound to die in the desert.
Firstly, that doesn't bear out because the Bonehunters couldn't be sensed while in the desert. But even if you're right, that's a terrible idea because according to Tavore's own words the other armies' mission was MORE important. So if the FA had discounted the little that they knew about a threat that might emerge from the desert against all odds and instead pulled ALL of their forces back to defend against the other armies... that would have been a DISASTER!
Again, see above for reasons. Beyond that, the FA spire was high ground, any invasion attempt by sea into that bay (unless by Hood himself) would have surely failed.
Dude, sailing is to get there quicker and avoid death by desert. It doesn't mean you have to attack by sea. Park the boats a few miles away or whatever. The point is I'm not seeing the tactical soundness in hoofing it all the way when Tehol's ships clearly demonstrate it's possible to arrive on the FA's doorstep at the last minute with no one the wiser.
I think you are underestimating the logistics involved in the entire endeavor to be frank. Taking on the entire FA army at once? wtf? Were you reading the same book I was?
No, I'm not saying it's a great idea to take on ALL of the FA's armies. I'm saying sending 50 people (who turned into 80 or so) to take on half an army is stupid. Why did they have to fight at all? There was no justification for it. But given that the hearted needed to be delivered to Tavore's sword (which is a huge hole in the plot that you did not address), the gambit to draw off all of the FA's armies seemed to completely fail. Why didn't the marines stay behind with the sword on the shore of this new lake, far away from the FA? The sword could have been left with them and the assassin could have delivered the heart to them there. It seems like location MUST be important, but nothing in the book suggest that. The hill they were on was repeatedly stated as one of convenience and necessity.
Did you read ALL the books? Not meaning to offend or anything, but Tavore proved a few times over that she was a very keen military mind well before TCG.
Imagine it like this:
In LOTR: ROTK Aragorn and his entire army take on the forces of Sauron at the Black Gates of Mordor....just to give Frodo a chance. That's it.
You can see this the same way. There were many converging plans in play and one of them was having the majority of the Bonehunters cross a seemingly uncrossable desert to distract the FA into thinking that they'd never do it, and even if they did they'd be next to dead. It allowed all the events that lead to the FA's downfall, Kaminsod's heart saved, and his eventual release. The march HAD a point, it just might not be one that SEEMS to make the most sense, but then Aragorn standing off against Sauron's entire forces just so Frodo could throw a ring into a volcano doesn't either...but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do...the honorable thing....
...you see, TCG more than anything was about how sometimes, doing something great, something completely selfless requires EVERYTHING you have, and sometimes it requires blind faith in a seemingly insane plan.
I'll agree that Tavore was a good military leader in all her past campaigns, I'm just talking about this book. And I also understand the theme of the book and the meaning behind it. As I said, I enjoyed the book and all of the resulting drama. I was quite willing to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride. The point of this thread is that I would have rather not had to suspend disbelief. I would have rather gone, "holy crap, now I get it, genius! All that sacrifice was for a purpose!" Instead it just seems like sacrifice cause the author wanted to write about sacrifice.
QuickTidal, on 26 August 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
So first off let me say I'm happy with the book and enjoyed it immensely. I'm glad we got so much climatic drama and resolution. But I can't help feeling that the drama and resolution was somewhat forced and that a little common sense could have skipped it all. It's very much like the Eagles in Lord of the Rings. So I don't really MIND it that much, but I would like to discuss it nonetheless and get some other opinions.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
The entire point was so that the FA would feel they weren't worth worrying much about as they were bound to die in the desert.
Firstly, that doesn't bear out because the Bonehunters couldn't be sensed while in the desert. But even if you're right, that's a terrible idea because according to Tavore's own words the other armies' mission was MORE important. So if the FA had discounted the little that they knew about a threat that might emerge from the desert against all odds and instead pulled ALL of their forces back to defend against the other armies... that would have been a DISASTER!
QuickTidal, on 26 August 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
2. They could have sailed.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Again, see above for reasons. Beyond that, the FA spire was high ground, any invasion attempt by sea into that bay (unless by Hood himself) would have surely failed.
Dude, sailing is to get there quicker and avoid death by desert. It doesn't mean you have to attack by sea. Park the boats a few miles away or whatever. The point is I'm not seeing the tactical soundness in hoofing it all the way when Tehol's ships clearly demonstrate it's possible to arrive on the FA's doorstep at the last minute with no one the wiser.
QuickTidal, on 26 August 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
4. Having only the elite hero-type marines guard the CG seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
I think you are underestimating the logistics involved in the entire endeavor to be frank. Taking on the entire FA army at once? wtf? Were you reading the same book I was?
No, I'm not saying it's a great idea to take on ALL of the FA's armies. I'm saying sending 50 people (who turned into 80 or so) to take on half an army is stupid. Why did they have to fight at all? There was no justification for it. But given that the hearted needed to be delivered to Tavore's sword (which is a huge hole in the plot that you did not address), the gambit to draw off all of the FA's armies seemed to completely fail. Why didn't the marines stay behind with the sword on the shore of this new lake, far away from the FA? The sword could have been left with them and the assassin could have delivered the heart to them there. It seems like location MUST be important, but nothing in the book suggest that. The hill they were on was repeatedly stated as one of convenience and necessity.
QuickTidal, on 26 August 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
So maybe I'm wrong in some of these, and I hope I am. But I'm just not seeing military genius here. I really liked it when Ganoes teld QB and Kalem about how she's the greatest military mind of all time, I was looking forward to learning why all the pain and suffering. And then it turned out to be just a plot device to get maximum drama. Or am I wrong?
Did you read ALL the books? Not meaning to offend or anything, but Tavore proved a few times over that she was a very keen military mind well before TCG.
Imagine it like this:
In LOTR: ROTK Aragorn and his entire army take on the forces of Sauron at the Black Gates of Mordor....just to give Frodo a chance. That's it.
You can see this the same way. There were many converging plans in play and one of them was having the majority of the Bonehunters cross a seemingly uncrossable desert to distract the FA into thinking that they'd never do it, and even if they did they'd be next to dead. It allowed all the events that lead to the FA's downfall, Kaminsod's heart saved, and his eventual release. The march HAD a point, it just might not be one that SEEMS to make the most sense, but then Aragorn standing off against Sauron's entire forces just so Frodo could throw a ring into a volcano doesn't either...but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do...the honorable thing....
...you see, TCG more than anything was about how sometimes, doing something great, something completely selfless requires EVERYTHING you have, and sometimes it requires blind faith in a seemingly insane plan.
I'll agree that Tavore was a good military leader in all her past campaigns, I'm just talking about this book. And I also understand the theme of the book and the meaning behind it. As I said, I enjoyed the book and all of the resulting drama. I was quite willing to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride. The point of this thread is that I would have rather not had to suspend disbelief. I would have rather gone, "holy crap, now I get it, genius! All that sacrifice was for a purpose!" Instead it just seems like sacrifice cause the author wanted to write about sacrifice.
#4
worry
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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:30 PM
This might not address all your concerns, but one thing you seem to be missing is that she didn't want to draw the Otataral dragon through hordes of living beings, so sending the sword to the heart rather than the other way around would have been counter to her purpose and caused massively more death for all sides. She also needed a place where D'rek could work her magic, and where the Great Ravens could arrive without being assaulted.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
#5
Studlock
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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:33 PM
Really I believe it was to split up the FA armies and the Pures. If the had all been together I doubt the Bonehunters and co would of won, think of it, every one of the FA's armies was sizeable, and if everyone of them stayed along with the uber-powerful Pures and all the High Watered, the battle would of been much, much worse. Going by sea would of lead to death since the Perish switched sides, and there were the Perish's boats not the Malazans. And she couldn't have summoned the anti-magic (sorry can't remember the name as the moment) dragon by the Spire because it does no work on Elder magic. I would also like to point out the retarted logistics of have that many soldiers in one army, whereas the FA do not have that problem seeing as how they can command the soldiers directly. Divide and conquer, I guess, is the road Tarvore went with and it worked.
#6
D'rek
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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:36 PM
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
So first off let me say I'm happy with the book and enjoyed it immensely. I'm glad we got so much climatic drama and resolution. But I can't help feeling that the drama and resolution was somewhat forced and that a little common sense could have skipped it all. It's very much like the Eagles in Lord of the Rings. So I don't really MIND it that much, but I would like to discuss it nonetheless and get some other opinions.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
The Bonehunters needed to be guarding the Heart, which needed to be outside the Akhrast Korvalain influence. The other armies needed to go right to the centre of that influence to liberate the Heart. Two objectives that could not be performed in the same place. And then it's all about balancing the numbers of enemies. The Bonehunters was the weaker force, and could not have stood against a lot of the FA forces. Even against just one FA army, they expected all their regulars and officers to die stalling for time for the Heart (because Tavore didn't know that Ganoes was in the north and would save them). Whether the Bonehunters were detected in the Glass Desert or not, making it through but with a small force was enough for the FA to send one army, which was needed to reduce the defenders of the Spire enough for the Letheri/Abrastal's/Barghast/K'Chain forces, without drawing all the FA armies to the Bonehunters at once.
2. They could have sailed.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Except for that chapter where all the Thrones of War showed up in the bay at the Spire and every Grey Helm on board joined with the Forkrul Assail... there's no proof that Tavore knew that would happen (like most things) but it's a damn good thing they didn't sail.
3. Sending the CG's heart to the Bonehunters seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So the victorious unopposed armies sent the vulnerable heart AWAY to the VULNERABLE army? Why? To be near Tavore's sword? She could have given the damn thing to them before separating! Or had the flying cockroach take the sword to the heart instead of the other way around. If they can trust it with CG's heart, they can trust it with a dang sword. Of course, the best solution of all would have been for the Bonehunters to have been with the other armies to begin with.
The Heart had to be outside the influence of the Akhrast Korvalain gate.
4. Having only the elite hero-type marines guard the CG seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
The marines weren't the suicide mission, the regulars were. The marines could (and did) hold off long enough for the Heart business to happen, and I don't know why but Tavore figured they would live once that had happened. But if the whole FA army had surrounded that mound and charged, even all the Bonehunters would not have been able to hold them off from the Heart. So the regulars and officers went on the suicide mission to stall most of the FA army long enough that the marines would face a manageable amount of foes.
So maybe I'm wrong in some of these, and I hope I am. But I'm just not seeing military genius here. I really liked it when Ganoes teld QB and Kalem about how she's the greatest military mind of all time, I was looking forward to learning why all the pain and suffering. And then it turned out to be just a plot device to get maximum drama. Or am I wrong?
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
The Bonehunters needed to be guarding the Heart, which needed to be outside the Akhrast Korvalain influence. The other armies needed to go right to the centre of that influence to liberate the Heart. Two objectives that could not be performed in the same place. And then it's all about balancing the numbers of enemies. The Bonehunters was the weaker force, and could not have stood against a lot of the FA forces. Even against just one FA army, they expected all their regulars and officers to die stalling for time for the Heart (because Tavore didn't know that Ganoes was in the north and would save them). Whether the Bonehunters were detected in the Glass Desert or not, making it through but with a small force was enough for the FA to send one army, which was needed to reduce the defenders of the Spire enough for the Letheri/Abrastal's/Barghast/K'Chain forces, without drawing all the FA armies to the Bonehunters at once.
2. They could have sailed.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Except for that chapter where all the Thrones of War showed up in the bay at the Spire and every Grey Helm on board joined with the Forkrul Assail... there's no proof that Tavore knew that would happen (like most things) but it's a damn good thing they didn't sail.
3. Sending the CG's heart to the Bonehunters seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So the victorious unopposed armies sent the vulnerable heart AWAY to the VULNERABLE army? Why? To be near Tavore's sword? She could have given the damn thing to them before separating! Or had the flying cockroach take the sword to the heart instead of the other way around. If they can trust it with CG's heart, they can trust it with a dang sword. Of course, the best solution of all would have been for the Bonehunters to have been with the other armies to begin with.
The Heart had to be outside the influence of the Akhrast Korvalain gate.
4. Having only the elite hero-type marines guard the CG seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
The marines weren't the suicide mission, the regulars were. The marines could (and did) hold off long enough for the Heart business to happen, and I don't know why but Tavore figured they would live once that had happened. But if the whole FA army had surrounded that mound and charged, even all the Bonehunters would not have been able to hold them off from the Heart. So the regulars and officers went on the suicide mission to stall most of the FA army long enough that the marines would face a manageable amount of foes.
So maybe I'm wrong in some of these, and I hope I am. But I'm just not seeing military genius here. I really liked it when Ganoes teld QB and Kalem about how she's the greatest military mind of all time, I was looking forward to learning why all the pain and suffering. And then it turned out to be just a plot device to get maximum drama. Or am I wrong?
Answers in blue.
worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:
I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
#7
Goken
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:37 AM
worrywort, on 26 August 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:
This might not address all your concerns, but one thing you seem to be missing is that she didn't want to draw the Otataral dragon through hordes of living beings, so sending the sword to the heart rather than the other way around would have been counter to her purpose and caused massively more death for all sides. She also needed a place where D'rek could work her magic, and where the Great Ravens could arrive without being assaulted.
It's not clear that Tavore knew about the Otataral dragon, but if she did know that might explain why the heart and sword had to be away from people. D'rek and Great Ravens are not big issues here... either would have been fine in some other location.
From the discussion of Shadowthorne and Ganoes, Shadowthorne has no idea what Tavore is up to, so that implies he hasn't been talking to her. So on one hand, that would imply she's not aware of the intricate plan to use the Otataral dragon, Heboric, K'rul, Mael, and Cotilion to kill the Chained God. On the other hand, Fiddler certainly seemed aware of the plan when he tackles his soldier to keep him from interfering. So he either catches on real quick, Quick Ben told him, or Tavore did indeed have an idea what might happen.
An alternate possibility, and one that seems likely to me, is that she did NOT know about the dragon at all. I think this because Fiddler says a couple times about how the sword wouldn't be able to cut the chains. That seems to imply that the use for the sword was originally to cut his chains. Though this could just have been plan A, who the heck knows.
In conclusion I think the "we need to draw the Otataral Dragon away from the city" is a valid theory, but not one that I would give odds to. If there were some direct evidence in the book that would be nice, but I don't think there is.
Studlock, on 26 August 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:
Really I believe it was to split up the FA armies and the Pures. If the had all been together I doubt the Bonehunters and co would of won, think of it, every one of the FA's armies was sizeable, and if everyone of them stayed along with the uber-powerful Pures and all the High Watered, the battle would of been much, much worse. Going by sea would of lead to death since the Perish switched sides, and there were the Perish's boats not the Malazans. And she couldn't have summoned the anti-magic (sorry can't remember the name as the moment) dragon by the Spire because it does no work on Elder magic. I would also like to point out the retarted logistics of have that many soldiers in one army, whereas the FA do not have that problem seeing as how they can command the soldiers directly. Divide and conquer, I guess, is the road Tarvore went with and it worked.
The marginal returns of increasing army size for a smaller army are higher than those for a larger army. To put it another way: an army of 500 has longer odds against an army of 5000 than an army of 1000 has against an army of 10000. Furthermore, we've seen that Malazans can do a lot when they have lots of tools at their disposal to come up with creative tactics. So a full array of weapons presented by the accumulated armies of all of Tavore's allies would, by the internal logic of the books, have given Tavore may more powerful options for her creative mind. In conclusion, I do not believe divide and conquer is a strong argument here.
D, on 26 August 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:
Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:
So first off let me say I'm happy with the book and enjoyed it immensely. I'm glad we got so much climatic drama and resolution. But I can't help feeling that the drama and resolution was somewhat forced and that a little common sense could have skipped it all. It's very much like the Eagles in Lord of the Rings. So I don't really MIND it that much, but I would like to discuss it nonetheless and get some other opinions.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
The Bonehunters needed to be guarding the Heart, which needed to be outside the Akhrast Korvalain influence. The other armies needed to go right to the centre of that influence to liberate the Heart. Two objectives that could not be performed in the same place. And then it's all about balancing the numbers of enemies. The Bonehunters was the weaker force, and could not have stood against a lot of the FA forces. Even against just one FA army, they expected all their regulars and officers to die stalling for time for the Heart (because Tavore didn't know that Ganoes was in the north and would save them). Whether the Bonehunters were detected in the Glass Desert or not, making it through but with a small force was enough for the FA to send one army, which was needed to reduce the defenders of the Spire enough for the Letheri/Abrastal's/Barghast/K'Chain forces, without drawing all the FA armies to the Bonehunters at once.
So, here are my problems with Tavore's plan:
1. Dividing and sending the Bonehunters into the Glass Desert made no sense and didn't help.
The reason given was to draw enemies away, but they didn't sense them coming so that was a total bust. The FA pat themselves on the back for responding so quickly to the Bonehunters. But theoretically the Bonehunters could have just gone around with the other armies and avoided killing off most everyone.
There also seems to be the desire for the element of surprise (much like the Spanish Inquisition). But to what end? Their job wasn't to save the CG's heart, so surprise seems unnecessary.
The Bonehunters needed to be guarding the Heart, which needed to be outside the Akhrast Korvalain influence. The other armies needed to go right to the centre of that influence to liberate the Heart. Two objectives that could not be performed in the same place. And then it's all about balancing the numbers of enemies. The Bonehunters was the weaker force, and could not have stood against a lot of the FA forces. Even against just one FA army, they expected all their regulars and officers to die stalling for time for the Heart (because Tavore didn't know that Ganoes was in the north and would save them). Whether the Bonehunters were detected in the Glass Desert or not, making it through but with a small force was enough for the FA to send one army, which was needed to reduce the defenders of the Spire enough for the Letheri/Abrastal's/Barghast/K'Chain forces, without drawing all the FA armies to the Bonehunters at once.
That's an interesting possibility. There's only a couple flaws with that: The book does indicate that Akhrast Korvalain weakens with each Pure death, so my assumption as I was reading was that its influence was shattered in that region when all of the Pures and Watered were dead. This may have been an incorrect assumption. The other problem is that lots of magic was thrown around in that battle, and I believe the magic both weakened the dominance of AK but also was indicative of AK waning in the area. Still, this is the best explanation for why the heart had to be taken elsewhere that I've heard, as it's certainly something Tavore would have known about in advance. I'd love to see some solid evidence. But even without, I'd consider this a strong possibility. Nice.
D, on 26 August 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:
2. They could have sailed.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Except for that chapter where all the Thrones of War showed up in the bay at the Spire and every Grey Helm on board joined with the Forkrul Assail... there's no proof that Tavore knew that would happen (like most things) but it's a damn good thing they didn't sail.
Tehol sends a fleet to provide emergency relief AND troops to Brys and company. And at the end, Tehol is on his way himself with another fleet. Um, can a brotha get a frickin RIDE? Plus the Bonehunters CAME to Lether in their own fleet, and they still had the thrones of war that are marginally under their command. This really smacks of the Great Eagles pulling Frodo to safety.
Except for that chapter where all the Thrones of War showed up in the bay at the Spire and every Grey Helm on board joined with the Forkrul Assail... there's no proof that Tavore knew that would happen (like most things) but it's a damn good thing they didn't sail.
Hehe, good point, but it still doesn't explain why the choice was made. Perhaps Tavore knew the Perrish were uncertain allies? But, then, why not use Tehol's ships? Still not convinced that overland was necessary, but I'm fairly certain there IS a reasonable explanation. Doesn't feel like a plot hole, just a mystery. (My other Q's are more plot-holey.)
D, on 26 August 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:
3. Sending the CG's heart to the Bonehunters seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So the victorious unopposed armies sent the vulnerable heart AWAY to the VULNERABLE army? Why? To be near Tavore's sword? She could have given the damn thing to them before separating! Or had the flying cockroach take the sword to the heart instead of the other way around. If they can trust it with CG's heart, they can trust it with a dang sword. Of course, the best solution of all would have been for the Bonehunters to have been with the other armies to begin with.
The Heart had to be outside the influence of the Akhrast Korvalain gate.
So the victorious unopposed armies sent the vulnerable heart AWAY to the VULNERABLE army? Why? To be near Tavore's sword? She could have given the damn thing to them before separating! Or had the flying cockroach take the sword to the heart instead of the other way around. If they can trust it with CG's heart, they can trust it with a dang sword. Of course, the best solution of all would have been for the Bonehunters to have been with the other armies to begin with.
The Heart had to be outside the influence of the Akhrast Korvalain gate.
As I said above... could be.
D, on 26 August 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:
4. Having only the elite hero-type marines guard the CG seemed completely unnecessary and unbelievably dumb.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
The marines weren't the suicide mission, the regulars were. The marines could (and did) hold off long enough for the Heart business to happen, and I don't know why but Tavore figured they would live once that had happened. But if the whole FA army had surrounded that mound and charged, even all the Bonehunters would not have been able to hold them off from the Heart. So the regulars and officers went on the suicide mission to stall most of the FA army long enough that the marines would face a manageable amount of foes.
So while it was awesome to have the marines go off on a suicide mission to save the world, it seems like it would have worked just as well if they had all stayed together and fought the FA enemies as one. Or better yet, stay together and AVOID the FA armies. Or better better yet, find a nice abandoned island to defend the heart from. Or EVEN MORE BETTER BETTER YET leave it right there and not split the armies to begin with.
The marines weren't the suicide mission, the regulars were. The marines could (and did) hold off long enough for the Heart business to happen, and I don't know why but Tavore figured they would live once that had happened. But if the whole FA army had surrounded that mound and charged, even all the Bonehunters would not have been able to hold them off from the Heart. So the regulars and officers went on the suicide mission to stall most of the FA army long enough that the marines would face a manageable amount of foes.
Firstly, it seems to me that both forces were on suicide missions, but I'll agree that the regulars are suicidier.
As for Tavore's army doing worse against the 3 FA armies than the 50 did against half of one - I don't buy that. As I pointed out above, the marginal returns of increasing in size to the smaller force are much greater than to an already large army. Tavore's whole army, well dug-in, could have held off the combined FA armies in the south longer than 50 marines could hold off 2000. It's a matter of flanking and surrounding. A tiny force is instantly surrounded, and faces impossible odds. They only survived because of super-heroics, and those same feats when combined with actual numbers would have given them all the time they needed. The way the book tells it, it seems that Tavore hoped to cut off the entirety of the enemy forces and were basically outmaneuvered. That's kind of a sad testament to Tavore's military genius, but maybe it just shows that the FA were quite formidable in their own right.
Still no explanation as to why the Bonehunters had to be anywhere near the dangerous FA armies at all. That still seems contrived for heroic last stands to me. I realize they were running out of time before the jade strangers destroyed the world, but an extra day of flight on behalf of the winged assassin probably could have taken the heart all the way to Letheras. What gives there?
Thanks again for the contributions folks! We've at least come up with a couple solid possibilities for why Brys and company couldn't protect the CG, so that's something.
#8
worry
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:50 AM
If the heart had been taken to Letheras, then everyone in the city would have been killed by the arrival of Korabas.
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#9
Sinisdar Toste
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 03:38 AM
i think tavore did know a lot of the things that you don't think she did. banaschar and lostara were two of tavores closest confidants and advisors. maybe we didn't get to see her extracting information from them, but she knew that there was an otataral dragon. and she is smart. she knows that her sword isn't gonna break the chains. she's putting it there to draw korabas.
she also knows that banaschar is the last priest of d'rek, and that hill that the marines were fighting on had a massive cavern underneath that could fulfill a threefold purpose: house the worm so she can protect the bonehunters from AK, allow mael and k'rul to bring heborics body to the proper place, and provide space large enough to fit korabas in.
as for sailing... that would've just been way to easy. tavore did what she did in order to make her army suffer. deliberately. she made them suffer so they could see and understand what the crippled god has gone through, and know why she is asking them to fight for him. know, and agree with her.
anyway, imo, tavores plan was the best one that anybody, god or mortal, had come up with for over 100,000 years. although, it might have been ST and Cots plan from the start, but maybe she just caught onto their vibes and ran with it. i don't think we're meant to know.
she also knows that banaschar is the last priest of d'rek, and that hill that the marines were fighting on had a massive cavern underneath that could fulfill a threefold purpose: house the worm so she can protect the bonehunters from AK, allow mael and k'rul to bring heborics body to the proper place, and provide space large enough to fit korabas in.
as for sailing... that would've just been way to easy. tavore did what she did in order to make her army suffer. deliberately. she made them suffer so they could see and understand what the crippled god has gone through, and know why she is asking them to fight for him. know, and agree with her.
anyway, imo, tavores plan was the best one that anybody, god or mortal, had come up with for over 100,000 years. although, it might have been ST and Cots plan from the start, but maybe she just caught onto their vibes and ran with it. i don't think we're meant to know.
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#10
Puck
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:35 AM
Sinisdar Toste, on 27 August 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:
as for sailing... that would've just been way to easy. tavore did what she did in order to make her army suffer. deliberately. she made them suffer so they could see and understand what the crippled god has gone through, and know why she is asking them to fight for him. know, and agree with her.
This. I was about to write something similar, but Sinisdar beat me at it. The Bonehunters needed to become avatars of the CG. This is why Tavore sent Brys' army and the Perish around the glass desert but made her own Bonehunters go straight through. The point is made repeatedly in the book that fighting for the sake of it or even for 'the soldier at your side' isn't enough on a suicide mission. Additionally, everyone was thinking they were going to kill the CG, but when it became apparent that wasn't the case every halfway sane soldier would have deserted, even the Bonehunters, except maybe the chosen few we were following closely, like Fid, who had a deeper insight anyway. But by the point everyone understood what was going on they were already aspected to the CG and their cause had become greater than what was immediately at hand. Tavore knew this and all of it was staged by her, all in the name of compassion.
It wasn't all about tactics only, because the driving matter wasn't secular to start with. Sure some things may have been done differently, but the sacrifices made wouldn't have carried the same meaning.
This post has been edited by Robin Goodfellow: 27 August 2011 - 11:40 AM
Puck was not birthed, she was cleaved from a lava flow and shaped by a fierce god's hands. - [worry]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
#11
Goken
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:58 AM
worrywort, on 27 August 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:
If the heart had been taken to Letheras, then everyone in the city would have been killed by the arrival of Korabas.
That was just a whimsical example. The point is they need not have been somewhere dangerous.
Sinisdar Toste, on 27 August 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:
i think tavore did know a lot of the things that you don't think she did. banaschar and lostara were two of tavores closest confidants and advisors. maybe we didn't get to see her extracting information from them, but she knew that there was an otataral dragon. and she is smart. she knows that her sword isn't gonna break the chains. she's putting it there to draw korabas.
she also knows that banaschar is the last priest of d'rek, and that hill that the marines were fighting on had a massive cavern underneath that could fulfill a threefold purpose: house the worm so she can protect the bonehunters from AK, allow mael and k'rul to bring heborics body to the proper place, and provide space large enough to fit korabas in.
as for sailing... that would've just been way to easy. tavore did what she did in order to make her army suffer. deliberately. she made them suffer so they could see and understand what the crippled god has gone through, and know why she is asking them to fight for him. know, and agree with her.
anyway, imo, tavores plan was the best one that anybody, god or mortal, had come up with for over 100,000 years. although, it might have been ST and Cots plan from the start, but maybe she just caught onto their vibes and ran with it. i don't think we're meant to know.
she also knows that banaschar is the last priest of d'rek, and that hill that the marines were fighting on had a massive cavern underneath that could fulfill a threefold purpose: house the worm so she can protect the bonehunters from AK, allow mael and k'rul to bring heborics body to the proper place, and provide space large enough to fit korabas in.
as for sailing... that would've just been way to easy. tavore did what she did in order to make her army suffer. deliberately. she made them suffer so they could see and understand what the crippled god has gone through, and know why she is asking them to fight for him. know, and agree with her.
anyway, imo, tavores plan was the best one that anybody, god or mortal, had come up with for over 100,000 years. although, it might have been ST and Cots plan from the start, but maybe she just caught onto their vibes and ran with it. i don't think we're meant to know.
Suffering necessary huh?... okay I'll buy that. Without having this spelled out in the book, it's still a little sketchy to me. But that's a pretty convincing explanation... sounds like something SE would say.
I don't buy any foreknowledge of Korabas though. They couldn't have known that Erastas would free her when he did. I could MAYBE be convinced that Shadowthorne had SOMEHOW pulled strings to put the idea in the Errant's head, but for Tavore to know exactly how that would go... I'd give that long odds indeed.
But the necessity for suffering is another strong possibility as a hidden explanation for Tavore's apparently bad plan. Nice.
#12
D'rek
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:30 PM
Also, if they'd gone by sea they'd never have picked up Abrastal's legion, the Gilk, the T'lan Imass (both the Seven of the Dead Fires and Onos T'oolan's crew) or the K'Chain Che'malle. The forces they gained through the journey outweighed the losses they suffered against the Nah'ruk (much of the BHs and about all of the Khundryl). Would they even have had the forces to succeed against the army at the Spire without gaining those forces?
worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:
I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
#13
Goken
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:27 PM
D, on 27 August 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:
Also, if they'd gone by sea they'd never have picked up Abrastal's legion, the Gilk, the T'lan Imass (both the Seven of the Dead Fires and Onos T'oolan's crew) or the K'Chain Che'malle. The forces they gained through the journey outweighed the losses they suffered against the Nah'ruk (much of the BHs and about all of the Khundryl). Would they even have had the forces to succeed against the army at the Spire without gaining those forces?
Hard to imagine that the K'Chain Che'malle business had any sort of planning, and that was the greatest gain. But it's true that they probably gained more than they lost. I suppose it's feasible that Tavore had a strong suspicion that strong powers were kicking around that could be recruited to their cause.
Seems like so many of these explanations need an aweful lot of work and could easily have been included in the book with a few hints. So either it makes sense to the author and he wants the reader to have to guess how it makes sense or he doesn't worry too much about every detail making sense.
#14
Kanubis
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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:34 AM
Goken, on 27 August 2011 - 11:27 PM, said:
D, on 27 August 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:
Also, if they'd gone by sea they'd never have picked up Abrastal's legion, the Gilk, the T'lan Imass (both the Seven of the Dead Fires and Onos T'oolan's crew) or the K'Chain Che'malle. The forces they gained through the journey outweighed the losses they suffered against the Nah'ruk (much of the BHs and about all of the Khundryl). Would they even have had the forces to succeed against the army at the Spire without gaining those forces?
Hard to imagine that the K'Chain Che'malle business had any sort of planning, and that was the greatest gain. But it's true that they probably gained more than they lost. I suppose it's feasible that Tavore had a strong suspicion that strong powers were kicking around that could be recruited to their cause.
Seems like so many of these explanations need an aweful lot of work and could easily have been included in the book with a few hints. So either it makes sense to the author and he wants the reader to have to guess how it makes sense or he doesn't worry too much about every detail making sense.
The only hint for the K'Chain Che'malle is back in Bonehunters when Tavore is very interested in the movements of the Nah'ruk Skykeeps, enough to risk tackling Y'Ghatan without the aid of Quick Ben, Kalam and Stormy. It doesn't tell us much, but presumably she knew that a Short Tail/Long Tail face off was in the works and that the K'Chain Che'malle were in some way a factor she had to take on board.
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#15
Kanese S's
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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:44 AM
Goken, on 27 August 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:
Suffering necessary huh?... okay I'll buy that. Without having this spelled out in the book, it's still a little sketchy to me. But that's a pretty convincing explanation... sounds like something SE would say.
Erikson doesn't seem to really do the whole spelling things out for you thing. You may have noticed this, having read all ten books.
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#16
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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:48 AM
Goken, on 27 August 2011 - 11:27 PM, said:
D, on 27 August 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:
Also, if they'd gone by sea they'd never have picked up Abrastal's legion, the Gilk, the T'lan Imass (both the Seven of the Dead Fires and Onos T'oolan's crew) or the K'Chain Che'malle. The forces they gained through the journey outweighed the losses they suffered against the Nah'ruk (much of the BHs and about all of the Khundryl). Would they even have had the forces to succeed against the army at the Spire without gaining those forces?
Hard to imagine that the K'Chain Che'malle business had any sort of planning, and that was the greatest gain. But it's true that they probably gained more than they lost. I suppose it's feasible that Tavore had a strong suspicion that strong powers were kicking around that could be recruited to their cause.
Seems like so many of these explanations need an aweful lot of work and could easily have been included in the book with a few hints. So either it makes sense to the author and he wants the reader to have to guess how it makes sense or he doesn't worry too much about every detail making sense.
Or both. Erikson seems to assume his readers are geniuses or something, at times. It can be both frustrating and flattering.
How much Tavore knew, exactly, is another subject that's come up in debate.
Laseen did nothing wrong.
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#17
worry
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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:48 AM
ST and Cots, not to mention the Eres'al, definitely could have had foreknowledge of Korabas. ST from his own powers perhaps, or from wandering the Azath, or from Tayschrenn who has some powers of prognostication. Since they didn't need to predict where Korabas was going, but rather they needed to attract her to that location, it didn't require particularly specific details about the future. Also, given the involvement of K'rul, while you could call what they planned for Korabas a gamble, there's very little reason to consider the outcome a coincidence or byproduct.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
#18
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Posted 28 August 2011 - 10:57 AM
About Tavore, I remembered there's this lovely interview with SE, where this very matter - how much did Tavore know? - is addressed..
The interview can be found here.
As far as I'm concerned, what I can read in and understand through the text in the books themselves is enough. I can live with the info we are provided and don't need to have it all spelled out, as it's clear enough as it is. To me at least.
Quote
- Can you explain the source of Tavore's knowledge throughout the series?
- Olar Ethil is an intriguing character, but her motivations and goals remain a bit of a mystery. Could you elaborate on what her plans were in The Crippled God?
I group these two questions, as the answer for both will be the same. It’s all about interpretation, and to that extent I’m no longer part of that conversation. My work is done, as frustrating as that might be. Interpret as you will. Just as you cannot know the mind of anyone else, not completely, not absolutely, so too these characters. Tavore will always be a mystery, closed in and hidden away. She is that world’s Alexander (ie, what the hell was he up to in Northern India? What was he seeking? Did he drink himself to death in some twisted esoteric worship of eastern cults? Was the whole conquest born of guilt over his father’s death – was he involved? – or just the fatal desire to out-conquer his old man? And so on). If we have all those answered for us, we’d not be satisfied anyway. So, what you ask cannot, will not, be answered. As for Olar Ethil, the same thing. She could be insane, or not. Her motives might have been moral, or not. Did she deserve her fate? For you to decide.
- Olar Ethil is an intriguing character, but her motivations and goals remain a bit of a mystery. Could you elaborate on what her plans were in The Crippled God?
I group these two questions, as the answer for both will be the same. It’s all about interpretation, and to that extent I’m no longer part of that conversation. My work is done, as frustrating as that might be. Interpret as you will. Just as you cannot know the mind of anyone else, not completely, not absolutely, so too these characters. Tavore will always be a mystery, closed in and hidden away. She is that world’s Alexander (ie, what the hell was he up to in Northern India? What was he seeking? Did he drink himself to death in some twisted esoteric worship of eastern cults? Was the whole conquest born of guilt over his father’s death – was he involved? – or just the fatal desire to out-conquer his old man? And so on). If we have all those answered for us, we’d not be satisfied anyway. So, what you ask cannot, will not, be answered. As for Olar Ethil, the same thing. She could be insane, or not. Her motives might have been moral, or not. Did she deserve her fate? For you to decide.
The interview can be found here.
As far as I'm concerned, what I can read in and understand through the text in the books themselves is enough. I can live with the info we are provided and don't need to have it all spelled out, as it's clear enough as it is. To me at least.
Puck was not birthed, she was cleaved from a lava flow and shaped by a fierce god's hands. - [worry]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
#19
Goken
- Recruit
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- Group: Malaz Regular
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Posted 29 August 2011 - 01:56 AM
Robin Goodfellow, on 28 August 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:
About Tavore, I remembered there's this lovely interview with SE, where this very matter - how much did Tavore know? - is addressed..
The interview can be found here.
As far as I'm concerned, what I can read in and understand through the text in the books themselves is enough. I can live with the info we are provided and don't need to have it all spelled out, as it's clear enough as it is. To me at least.
Quote
- Can you explain the source of Tavore's knowledge throughout the series?
- Olar Ethil is an intriguing character, but her motivations and goals remain a bit of a mystery. Could you elaborate on what her plans were in The Crippled God?
I group these two questions, as the answer for both will be the same. It's all about interpretation, and to that extent I'm no longer part of that conversation. My work is done, as frustrating as that might be. Interpret as you will. Just as you cannot know the mind of anyone else, not completely, not absolutely, so too these characters. Tavore will always be a mystery, closed in and hidden away. She is that world's Alexander (ie, what the hell was he up to in Northern India? What was he seeking? Did he drink himself to death in some twisted esoteric worship of eastern cults? Was the whole conquest born of guilt over his father's death – was he involved? – or just the fatal desire to out-conquer his old man? And so on). If we have all those answered for us, we'd not be satisfied anyway. So, what you ask cannot, will not, be answered. As for Olar Ethil, the same thing. She could be insane, or not. Her motives might have been moral, or not. Did she deserve her fate? For you to decide.
- Olar Ethil is an intriguing character, but her motivations and goals remain a bit of a mystery. Could you elaborate on what her plans were in The Crippled God?
I group these two questions, as the answer for both will be the same. It's all about interpretation, and to that extent I'm no longer part of that conversation. My work is done, as frustrating as that might be. Interpret as you will. Just as you cannot know the mind of anyone else, not completely, not absolutely, so too these characters. Tavore will always be a mystery, closed in and hidden away. She is that world's Alexander (ie, what the hell was he up to in Northern India? What was he seeking? Did he drink himself to death in some twisted esoteric worship of eastern cults? Was the whole conquest born of guilt over his father's death – was he involved? – or just the fatal desire to out-conquer his old man? And so on). If we have all those answered for us, we'd not be satisfied anyway. So, what you ask cannot, will not, be answered. As for Olar Ethil, the same thing. She could be insane, or not. Her motives might have been moral, or not. Did she deserve her fate? For you to decide.
The interview can be found here.
As far as I'm concerned, what I can read in and understand through the text in the books themselves is enough. I can live with the info we are provided and don't need to have it all spelled out, as it's clear enough as it is. To me at least.
Thank you for providing that link. Not only is that a great addition to this conversation, it's now an interview I get to read with fan-boyish glee!
#20
Macros
- D'ivers Fuckwits
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- Group: High House Mafia
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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:24 PM
well, mho on the whole subject is quite simple.
Tavore is touted as the greatest general of all time.
and she's a bit shit.
She lucked out on a lot of things on te road into FA, and if she knew it was all going to happen like that then its total prescience and not military genious.
lets look at her military endevours -
in the desert against leoman, the plan she uses is daseems, one of the marines calls the plan "daseems answer"
the whirlwind was won by ghosts and other people
yghattan, was a disaster, totally unmitigated
Letheras, massive fuck up only carried off because the marines got lucky and had a massive piss up down the line
first one ok, the last two amount to going off half cocked with little or no reconnaissance done, and she fluked through it (i revert to my prescient arguement again to cover the genious part)
The campaign against the FA seemed like a load of bollocks in its organisation. If it wasn't for the host appearing and kicking some serious ass then the entire thing would have been royally fucked.
Coming across the snake (ugh) was a stroke of fortune for that silly song.
The only part of it that made any sense was holding off on the meal water trick until everyone was done in to make them truly understand suffering
Tavore is touted as the greatest general of all time.
and she's a bit shit.
She lucked out on a lot of things on te road into FA, and if she knew it was all going to happen like that then its total prescience and not military genious.
lets look at her military endevours -
in the desert against leoman, the plan she uses is daseems, one of the marines calls the plan "daseems answer"
the whirlwind was won by ghosts and other people
yghattan, was a disaster, totally unmitigated
Letheras, massive fuck up only carried off because the marines got lucky and had a massive piss up down the line
first one ok, the last two amount to going off half cocked with little or no reconnaissance done, and she fluked through it (i revert to my prescient arguement again to cover the genious part)
The campaign against the FA seemed like a load of bollocks in its organisation. If it wasn't for the host appearing and kicking some serious ass then the entire thing would have been royally fucked.
Coming across the snake (ugh) was a stroke of fortune for that silly song.
The only part of it that made any sense was holding off on the meal water trick until everyone was done in to make them truly understand suffering
2012
"Imperial Gothos, Imperial"
"Imperial Gothos, Imperial"
