[Goken]

I'd like to point out a couple interesting passages about the Storm Riders that I haven't seen discussed before. On page 572:

Quote

Shell immediately raised her Warren, that of Serc, the Warren of Air and Storm, and flickered in and out, covering Blues and Bars and Lazar as they carefully climbed the slope. She knew that elsewhere, hidden, Fingers was doing the same.

She saw the scene in two differing frames. In one, the three men climbed the unremarkable barrier of rough uneven boulders, while in another the telltale marring and scars lingered of enormous energies expended and horrendous damage given and taken. Bodies lay among the rocks – slain Stormriders that she stepped right over. Their armour appeared to be a mixture of their sorcerous scaled ice over mundane materials such as shell, cold-forged copper, and exotic hides. They were fair, with pale hair. The characteristic features she saw among the corpses reminded her of the Tiste Andii.

This seems to suggest to me that Shell can only see the Storm Rider bodies while she's in her warren, Serc. That implies that they are natives of Serc, and that's why their bodies are seen to disappear when they are slain on the wall. Also note that the warren is specifically described as the Warren of Wir and Storm here, where elsewhere it's only described as being the warren of sky. By using the word storm, it seems to suggest why STORM Rider bodies might be seen in Serc.

Also, the comparison to Tiste Andii is interesting, though it could mean nothing. Tiste Sercians?

[Aptorian]

Interesting idea. All though I don't remember their bodies disappearing and I don't see why it should.

From the passage you're quoting I am not getting the impression that the bodies are invisible. She may have an enhanced vision while her warren is open, but I don't think that the other guys can't see the bodies. Magical vision means that she sees magic. Not that she can only perceive Serc magic.

What more, the Storm Riders are already mentioned as belonging to Omtos Phellack, supposedly they were brought in to Wu by a Jaghut ritual that caught them or something like that. Their nature is clearly one of ice and cold. They are enveloped in it. They use it both offensively and in defence.

How ever, one could guess that as is the nature of the magicks, their power leans on serc since raising a storm would surely connect with Serc.

[Goken]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I kept wondering what the Stormriders looked like under their armor, and why the Chosen didn't seem to know too much about them. Did they never inspect the bodies of their fallen foes? Then I read this passage from page 250, and assumed it meant that the bodies don't hand around when defeated.

Quote

He and his six bodyguards crashed into the Riders like their own wave. Hiam faced one, lunging high to draw his parry while his bodyguard thrust low to impale the demon, who grunted and grasped the spear, only to have his hand slashed as the guard yanked free the broad leaf-shaped blade. This one fell into the shallow water to dissolve like ice rotting. Another Rider shook off the attacks of two Chosen to charge Hiam. He parried the Rider's swing but the ice-blade caught at the haft of his spear like a gripping fist to heave it aside

This post has been edited by Goken: 17 August 2011 - 04:24 PM

[Aptorian]

Well, there's a lot of strange questions about the Stormriders. Why didn't they just make a wave that was ten feet higher than the wall and go over? Seeing as the land the wall stands on is just an island protecting the rest of the peninsula, why didn't the Stormriders just go around the wall and use the rivers to get to the chunk? If there are so many storm riders and they are so strong why didn't they just keep hitting one wall section with one iceberg after another until the wall crumbled? Seriously after at least 4000 years of war you'd think they'd learn. Not to mention the lame excuse about them not communicating with land dwellers because they don't listen.

We know that the Stormriders have physical bodies, as seen in the epilogue of NoK. I think they don't dissolve when they die but rather their armor disintegrates. It fits the description of the warrior dissolving.

[Goken]

Well I was originally guessing that the dissolving effect was that the bodies faded into another warren. But now I'm not so sure that the passage wasn't just poetic language referring to the armor disintegrating (which certainly happens, along with weapons) or to the body somehow being pulled back out to sea.

I still suspect that they are very much aspected to some very alien warren, and that's probably related to the seeming illogical limitations on what they can do in the normal world. But I would now put forth that if their warren is some part of Omtos Phellack, then maybe Serc is one of the modern descendants of that warren and that's why Shell was able to see the bodies.

[Urizen]

Nyapt Cat, on 17 August 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

What more, the Storm Riders are already mentioned as belonging to Omtos Phellack, supposedly they were brought in to Wu by a Jaghut ritual that caught them or something like that. Their nature is clearly one of ice and cold. They are enveloped in it. They use it both offensively and in defence.

How ever, one could guess that as is the nature of the magicks, their power leans on serc since raising a storm would surely connect with Serc.

Can we be certin of this? isn't the whole to Wu by a Jaghut ritual purely speculation from characters with no real idea what the Stormriders really are?

[Aptorian]

Yeah, I was sitting and trying to recall where the information was dumped but couldn't recall, wild guess would be NoK or Bonehunters.

Again the fact that they are allied with/work for/came to kill? Jhenna in NoK suggests that there is an important connection between Jaghut and Stormriders.

I don't think Erikson had a character drop the hint of their origin just to fuck with us, but then again, this is the Erikson. He toys with us.

[Urizen]

Nyapt Cat, on 17 August 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Yeah, I was sitting and trying to recall where the information was dumped but couldn't recall, wild guess would be NoK or Bonehunters.

Again the fact that they are allied with/work for/came to kill? Jhenna in NoK suggests that there is an important connection between Jaghut and Stormriders.

I don't think Erikson had a character drop the hint of their origin just to fuck with us, but then again, this is the Erikson. He toys with us.

Fake rumors and speculation that turns out be utterly wrong is very much SE's style. Although a Jaghut probably was involved at some point.

My personal crackpot theory is that the Stormriders started out as Tiste( perhaps liosan,perhaps not) who thanks to the CG's fall get trasformed and tied to the sea, perhaps through a botched magical ritual, and in order to survive/get revenge on the CG they approch a powerful Jaghut/s (Jhenna?) to use Omtose Phellack to protect them better.

[tiam]

Nyapt Cat, on 17 August 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Well, there's a lot of strange questions about the Stormriders. Why didn't they just make a wave that was ten feet higher than the wall and go over? Seeing as the land the wall stands on is just an island protecting the rest of the peninsula, why didn't the Stormriders just go around the wall and use the rivers to get to the chunk? If there are so many storm riders and they are so strong why didn't they just keep hitting one wall section with one iceberg after another until the wall crumbled? Seriously after at least 4000 years of war you'd think they'd learn. Not to mention the lame excuse about them not communicating with land dwellers because they don't listen.

We know that the Stormriders have physical bodies, as seen in the epilogue of NoK. I think they don't dissolve when they die but rather their armor disintegrates. It fits the description of the warrior dissolving.

Id say honour seems to have become a factor. Not attacking certain portions of the Wall because the people standing the Wall have earned suggests honour bound soceity or atleast a level of stricture. They are certainly portrayed as mindless and very powerful but Im sure if we get viewpoint well see that they have limits to their power and such. The time they used a ship to throw at the wall might have taken years and years of preparation. As for why they didnt go round I think that the blood sacrifice forestalled them in some way possibly forming a barrier around the continent though this is just speculation based on the fact the Lady can stop all sorcery. My pet theory for the StormWall since we had the SW prologue was that the StormWall was a giant sacrifice to provide power for the god, which it is to a certain extent as it stops the Storm Riders, though I thought the god was Killy.

I agree that the communication with the Korelri was weak but im sure they tried talking to them in the earlier times but have since stopped trying.

[seint kanem's shadowrope]

Urizen, on 18 August 2011 - 07:58 AM, said:

Nyapt Cat, on 17 August 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Yeah, I was sitting and trying to recall where the information was dumped but couldn't recall, wild guess would be NoK or Bonehunters.

Again the fact that they are allied with/work for/came to kill? Jhenna in NoK suggests that there is an important connection between Jaghut and Stormriders.

I don't think Erikson had a character drop the hint of their origin just to fuck with us, but then again, this is the Erikson. He toys with us.

Fake rumors and speculation that turns out be utterly wrong is very much SE's style. Although a Jaghut probably was involved at some point.

My personal crackpot theory is that the Stormriders started out as Tiste( perhaps liosan,perhaps not) who thanks to the CG's fall get trasformed and tied to the sea, perhaps through a botched magical ritual, and in order to survive/get revenge on the CG they approch a powerful Jaghut/s (Jhenna?) to use Omtose Phellack to protect them better.

here is a question. if the stormriders live in the ocean, how come they are not aspected to mael? storms should be part of his aspects since it happens on water. in this regard, mael and osserc should be related. also why were they (the stormriders) coming towards (not attacking) malaz city in NOK? the sorcerers attack the stormriders immediately they sense them coming but we do know the stormriders are not interested in the humans, so what got the malazans afraid? we know the reasons in korel, the lady lied to them so that they can protect her unknowingly.

from what i deduced in SW the stormriders could not break the wall because of the lady's sorcery. the builders of the wall used parts of her skin (i think) and marked where the wall would be built, so the stormriders could not get through that sorcery and ritual, just like sorcerers within korelri could not access their warren unless the lady allowed it. she was in control of that location completely, and korel was her fotress against the stormriders. she is their enemy not the people, and she is the one they are trying to get to. i liked the part when the wall broke and the stormriders were swimming within the wall, the CG woman saw them coming in, and one of them saluted her. it showed they had no beef with the stormguards or the champions, they actually had respect for them, who they wanted was the lady.

[Abyss]

In NoK at the epilogue it was implied that the Stormriders, or at least the one the old man executed, were human. This doesn't so much contradict Shell's ovservation of an Andii link as add a possibility that the Riders are mixed blood or diverse groups working together.

Jenna didn't imply an Omtose link so much as suggest she found allies among the riders.

Given what we know about the overlap between warrens (ie: Kurald Galain/Thyrllan/Liosan/Emurlah to Meanas/Rashan/Thyr/Mokra), i have zero difficulty with a link to whatever degree between Omtose and Serc and probably Mael and Beru's warrens while we're at it.

[Azathmaster]

Yeah there has to be a connection from an elder warren to a human accessible warren so omtose phellack should go to serc and denaeth rusen should go to ruse.
What ive realized is that the newer warrens carry a variation of the elder warrens name, but serc has no lingusitic connection to omtose phellack except maybe omtoSE phellaCk

[D'rek]

Azathmaster, on 23 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

Yeah there has to be a connection from an elder warren to a human accessible warren

There does? Why?

Azathmaster, on 23 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

so omtose phellack should go to serc and denaeth rusen should go to ruse.
What ive realized is that the newer warrens carry a variation of the elder warrens name, but serc has no lingusitic connection to omtose phellack except maybe omtoSE phellaCk

...what?

By that logic Meanas is actually the Path of Flying Lizards rather than Shadow/Illusion because Meanas fits into Starvald Demelain better than Kurald Emurlahn

[Azathmaster]

Ammeanas(Shadowthrone): Name of ruler and name of warren but normally there is a connection i've found. for example, Tellan to Telas, denaeth rusen to ruse, Kurald Thyrllan to thyr, etc.
My reasoning for omtose phellack was while i was saying the only connection could be if it had to be.

[D'rek]

Azathmaster, on 28 December 2011 - 08:44 PM, said:

Ammeanas(Shadowthrone): Name of ruler and name of warren but normally there is a connection i've found. for example, Tellan to Telas, denaeth rusen to ruse, Kurald Thyrllan to thyr, etc.
My reasoning for omtose phellack was while i was saying the only connection could be if it had to be.

Linguistics, I'd say. Ammannas/ammeanas is probably simply Shadowthrone in another language (Am being throne and m{e}an{n}as being shadow). There are similarities in this to the Queen of Dreams, Tennerock (related to Tennes), Cotillion (referncing the Shadow Dance), Sister of Cold Nights (assuming her aspect relates), etc but it's hardly a rule and doesn't apply to a majority or any particular subset of gods/warrens.

I would argue that a similar linguistic carry-over gives you the warren names being similar to the Elder warrens of the same aspect - Thyrllan probably means (or the root word of it means) Light and so it was an apt name for the Elder Warren of Light, and likewise the name carries down to Thyr being the Path of Light, much in the same way car engines are still measured in horse power (horses being the Elder Warren of Locomotion). But this would not apply to Serc and OP, because we know Omtose Phellack is aspected to Ice and Serc to the Sky. While these aspects may have some relation, they aren't nearly similar enough concepts that you can use the relationship of Light to (Elder) Light as from Sky to (Elder) Ice.

[Drusas Achamian]

About the origins of the Stormriders: this could be a possible clue - Quick Ben on Ruthan Gudd, charging the K'Chain Nah'ruk: '' A Mael-bit Nerruse-whore-spawn Stormrider. '' (DoD)

This could suggest that the Stormriders are spawn of the Gods of the seas (in a possible union perhaps?). As we all known, Mael is of course the Elder God of the Seas, while Nerruse belongs to the 'second generation' of gods and is the Goddess/Lady of Calm Seas and Fair Winds. I believe it is mentioned somewhere that Nerruse and Beru, Lord (or Lady?) of Storms are children to Mael. If we put the Stormriders in this context, than we could make a comparisson with the whole Kilmandor/Sechul Lath/(Oponn?)/Forkrul Assail-relationship. A such a way that the Forkrul Assail are children/created by Kilmandaros, the Stormrider could be created by Mael and/or Nerruse (perhaps in a incenstous bonding?).

If we put this in the back of our heads, the following two scenes would make more sense:

1. When the sorcery of his Stormrider-sword is activated, Ruthan Gudd thinks: '' She answers. She answers...what'? '' (DoD)

'' She '' could be Nerruse, aiding the man whom here children, the Stormriders, gave a magical sword.

2. Olar Ethil to Mael: ' '' Your daughters run wild. '' The old man shrugged. ''Daughters wild do that. Rather, the would do that. I would be disappointed otherwise. It's a poor father who does not nudge and then cut loos..''

The '' daughters '' that Olar Ethil mentioned could be Nerruse and Beru - I believe it's not clear if it's a he or a she - children of Mael. The '' run wild ''-part could be referencing to the troubles on the seas and the Stormwall, created by the Stormriders, perhaps in command of Nerruse and Beru.

[D'iversify]

Drusas Achamian, on 04 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

About the origins of the Stormriders: this could be a possible clue - Quick Ben on Ruthan Gudd, charging the K'Chain Nah'ruk: '' A Mael-bit Nerruse-whore-spawn Stormrider. '' (DoD)

This could suggest that the Stormriders are spawn of the Gods of the seas (in a possible union perhaps?). As we all known, Mael is of course the Elder God of the Seas, while Nerruse belongs to the 'second generation' of gods and is the Goddess/Lady of Calm Seas and Fair Winds. I believe it is mentioned somewhere that Nerruse and Beru, Lord (or Lady?) of Storms are children to Mael. If we put the Stormriders in this context, than we could make a comparisson with the whole Kilmandor/Sechul Lath/(Oponn?)/Forkrul Assail-relationship. A such a way that the Forkrul Assail are children/created by Kilmandaros, the Stormrider could be created by Mael and/or Nerruse (perhaps in a incenstous bonding?).

Well, as classical mythology has taught us well, there's nothing like a bit of incesstuous bonding to lighten the mood and produce monstrosities abhorrent to gods and men (seriously though, one of the Sumerian myyhs just has Enlil copulating with an ever extending genealogical line until he's tricked by his latest progeny, so fails to have to have his way with her).

[Observer]

After I read the quote listed in the OP, I definitely felt that the Stormriders were related to the Tiste Liosan. The Liosan seem to be the least recognized of the three main Tiste groups by "outsiders" (read: humans), and many times a POV will describe a Liosan as resembling an Andii, but with paler features. Plus, I thought this possible link drew interesting parallels with the Liosan and the First Shore (side note - I don't see a spoilers policy in this forum?).

[worry]

You can discuss anything up through the end of this book. If you want to talk TCG or whatever, use clearly marked spoiler tags.