[Abyss]

JUST FINISHED IT...

SPOILERS SPOILERS A DANCE WITH DRAGONS SPOILERS
HEREAFTER INCLUDING WHO LIVES WHO DIES WHO KNITS WHO
GETS LAID ETC ETC THE SPOILER POINT IS SPOILERS YOU STUPID
GITS SPOILERS FFS STOP READING STOP JUST STOP
OR ON YOUR HEAD BE IT SPOILERS

SPOILERS
DRAGONFUCKING SPOILERS


Here's the thing that's bugging me about GRRM's A DANCE WITH DRAGONS... typically when i finish an epic fantasy book, i like to go back and re-read the good parts... the best bits, the holy dragonfucknuts moments that blew me away... and when i finished DWD.... well... i didn't. I don't feel ripped off at all, in fact, considering the considerable wait for the book, i still feel like i got my money's worth. But looking at the series to date, and keeping in mind that i liked (but did not love) FEAST FOR CROWS... the best thing I can say about this book was that it was better than FEAST.

TYRION shined through the beginning of the book, and I think he's the best written character in the book and probably the series, but at a certain point 'Tyrion hooks up with bad people, makes them laugh, wins them over' gets old, and well, it got old.

JON... here is my summary of Jon's entire storyline... 'Waaahhh, the King/Queen/Wildings/Night's Watch hates me but screw them i have to save some Wildings/the world/more Wildings/Val/Stannis/still more Wildings/my sister/and also Wildings!... hey is that a knife?'. It got old. Started really strong but somewhere after the halfway mark it was repetitious and it got old and by the end hell I was ready to stab him myself just to make him stop whining. And hey, cliffhanger.

ARYA's chapters were great. Totally enjoyed her ongoing training.

JAIME's chapter was a repeat of stuff we already saw him do in Feast followed by a semi-cliffhanger. Oh joy. At least we know Brienne lived thru her cliffhanger last book. or something.

DANY also started strong, but her waffling and the endless circle of 'slaves love her, slavers hate her, everyone wants to shag her, what could happen next!?!' also felt like timekilling until Drogon FINALLY showed up. I did very enjoy that scene and her last one threatened to restore my level of liking the character.

SER SELMY's chapters were great. No waffling, finally a character who actually takes steps to control the situation rather than just be carried by it. He was the breakaway character of the book for me and i entirely enjoyed his segments. Notwithstanding the cliffhanger.

REEK/THEON: I enjoyed his chapters way more than i thought I would. For a character thoroughly beaten down, his narrative was involving, the events around him were interesting and the way he slowly reclaimed his 'name' while still in terror of Bolton was nicely done. Even with the cliffhanger.

ASHA: Was fine. Plus, surprise! Cliffhanger!!!!

DAVOS: Was a character i enjoyed way more here than in earlier books. His loyalty to Stannis, his stubborness and sense of humble honor, all made him an interesting and satisfying read. The entire sequence at White Harbor was great.

MELISANDRE: Was fine, and even interesting at points. I liked her trick switching Mance out.

QUENTYN: Quentyn spent most of his plotline wondering what his 'name' would be... may i suggest 'Quentyn the Crispy'? But I liked his segments and how his back-up plan went so totally utterly wrong as it had to.

CERSEI: Yawn. Please just hang-er.

Nice EPILOGUE... was i the only one who found Varys' recitation of Aegon's virtues to be utterly creepy...? He was describing the ideal King of the Seven Kingdoms and it seems so thoroughly... evil. And not just because he was talking to Kenav the Bleedingout over Maester Pycelle's brainleaking corpse. Possibly the best bit of writing in the book.

BEST NEW CHARACTER: Wun Wun Wins! Just because.

The book had decent action. There was Tyrion and co's fight with the Stone Men which gave Tyrion a nice chance to shine. I loved Asha and her men's battle against the Northmen. Selmy's fight against Khrazz was great. BuI would have liked at least one Big Battle... there was no scene of armies of thousands clashing along the lines of the Blackwater or the Wilding's attacking the Wall or even a Red Wedding.

Thus, all in all, it was a good story and a decent installment in the series and i don't regret reading it or spending the money, but i am left hoping GRRM will do better next time (insert mandatory ten or so years from now joke here).

- Abyss, ...sorry, sorry, couldn't resist....

[Gothos]

Abyss, on 03 August 2011 - 06:50 AM, said:

Nice EPILOGUE... was i the only one who found Varys' recitation of Aegon's virtues to be utterly creepy...? He was describing the ideal King of the Seven Kingdoms and it seems so thoroughly... evil. And not just because he was talking to Kenav the Bleedingout over Maester Pycelle's brainleaking corpse. Possibly the best bit of writing in the book.

It makes you think, doesn't it? Just how much of the events of the previous books were Varys' doing? He's effectively dismantled any meaningful resistance in the Seven Kingdoms that could stand against Aegon. Jon Arryn, Robert, Ned, Tywin, the Tullys, Stannis... just how much do you think he knew? How much has he orchestrated? How far could he influence events? Sure as hell seems more capable in his side of the partnership than Illyrio. The only wildcards left in that game now are Dorne (which won't make rash decisions and are Targaryen supporters, all in all), Dany and her dragons (with possibly a Faceless Man heading her way) and the Ironmen...
Yes, Euron. Victarion may hold his hopes for the defiance, but of many things Victarion is, a court player he is not. Should he succeed, Euron will come out on top. Besides, if it's the Horn's master, not user, getting command of the dragons - Euron's quite set, really. Then again, the presence of the Red Priest with Victarion is quite intriguing considering where it might take them.

All in all, this book is more of a great setup for Winds of Winter than a book of it's own, I think. We've got cliffhangers across almost all PoVs (annoying as fuck I must say). What I look forward to most right now story-wise is if Aegon and Dany get to meet... and how the meeting will go. Non-storyline-wise, FRANKENGREGOR.


Also, Wyman Manderly is my favourite new character, though Wun Wun takes a close second!

[worry]

I finished a few days ago and mostly agree with you. From what I've heard (and I admittedly don't read much anticipatory stuff, I tend to avoid it actually, and I don't read westeros), the chapters from the next book that GRRM already has done are very likely the Winterfell and Meereen battles, and they were left out cuz of the size of the book already. That, and the fact that he apparently outlined the rest of the series to the show creators, and even the 7 vs. 8 books thing, actually made me more optimistic that he's pretty much got the rest figured out. In that light, I think AFFC and ADWD make a pretty great set of table-setting books, and I actually don't think it will expand WOT-like at all. I know he doesn't chart out the writing or anything, and I didn't really think the wait was a big deal in the first place, so folks can take that with a grain of salt.

It was kind of obvious that Dany and Jon (and Tyrion I guess) were the wheel-turning stories while everyone else was rushing ahead, but if that's how GRRM had to recalibrate all the timing, it was a pleasant enough way to go about it. It makes sense to me that Dany would revert a little into young ladyhood now that she has a breather. Jon was the most repetitive for sure, but I didn't find him whiny at all. In fact, I found him quite stern and forthright while a lot of the people around him, old-timers in fact (Bowen Marsh), were getting whiny. Even so, everyone's motivations made sense to me -- the betrayers weren't the men who went out with Mormont and actually saw the wights, so their problem (denial or stubbornness, dunno) was pretty much set in stone with what the Weeper did to the rangers. I didn't dislike any of the storylines really. I wasn't a fan of the pirate stuff in AFFC, but even Victarion became a little interesting this time around.

I also quite like the different chapter titles he's been using. I find them quite whimsical (not pretentious) and I was glad to see the trend continue. It's very TTH-y, in his own way. I'm also very very amused by Bracken vs. Blackwood feud for some reason. As I was with the mention of a "brown apple" Fossoway among the Golden Company. I dunno, there was just so much to like that I can't really begrudge the sometimes creaky way he went about lining everyone up in terms of timing. The cliffhanger thing was more frustrating than every other problem combined, but like I said, I think even he was disappointed with that outcome.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 03 August 2011 - 07:34 AM

[Abyss]

Gothos, on 03 August 2011 - 07:28 AM, said:

Abyss, on 03 August 2011 - 06:50 AM, said:

Nice EPILOGUE... was i the only one who found Varys' recitation of Aegon's virtues to be utterly creepy...? He was describing the ideal King of the Seven Kingdoms and it seems so thoroughly... evil. And not just because he was talking to Kenav the Bleedingout over Maester Pycelle's brainleaking corpse. Possibly the best bit of writing in the book.

It makes you think, doesn't it? Just how much of the events of the previous books were Varys' doing? ...

Seriously, he's taken the 'for the good of the realm' thing to extremes and is likely one of the most ambiguous characters in the book.

Which makes me wonder whether Tyrion's prediction of Dany rushing to Aegon's aid may be more than just speculation.

Quote

All in all, this book is more of a great setup for Winds of Winter than a book of it's own, I think.

Possibly, but that means we got two books that amount to set p for yet another book with cliffhangers across both, and that i dislike.

Quote

...Non-storyline-wise, FRANKENGREGOR.

And how i look forward to that!

Quote

Also, Wyman Manderly is my favourite new character, ...!

Totally. I enjoyed him in both Davos and Theon's storylines.

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 03 August 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

... the betrayers weren't the men who went out with Mormont and actually saw the wights, so their problem (denial or stubbornness, dunno) was pretty much set in stone with what the Weeper did to the rangers....

Their "For the Watch." line was interesting. Deliberately ambiguous, but a nice touch.

[Cause]

Abyss, on 03 August 2011 - 08:06 AM, said:

worrywort, on 03 August 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

... the betrayers weren't the men who went out with Mormont and actually saw the wights, so their problem (denial or stubbornness, dunno) was pretty much set in stone with what the Weeper did to the rangers....

Their "For the Watch." line was interesting. Deliberately ambiguous, but a nice touch.

Ambiguous? How?

[MecnunK]

I also finished it just a few days back and the best that can be said for it is that it is better than AFFC. That's about it. BTW is Aegon's existence ever hinted at in previous books as I find it a little bizarre that illyro having known of Aegon's existence and JC's, with 10K sell-sword army sworn to his cause yet he doesnt give that protection to Viserys/Dany but rather sends her out with Dothraki savages. Wonder if it was a planned thing or GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon on a whim. Its one of the few story arks that I enjoyed.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss, on 03 August 2011 - 08:05 AM, said:

Which makes me wonder whether Tyrion's prediction of Dany rushing to Aegon's aid may be more than just speculation.

This is one bit I definitely don't get. Why were Illyrio and Varys running both Aegon and Viserys as potential kings? Daenerys's rise to power was not part of the plan, and it makes far more sense for them to install a young, thoroughly moulded Aegon in a Targaryen restoration. The plotters definitely have their heads screwed on, it seems inconceivable they would favour another Aerys over Rhaegar's boy.

So was Viserys always destined to die before he interfered with Aegon? He might have had value as a distraction, as everyone knew who the Beggar King was, but Aegon will be a lightning bolt from the blue. But if he was disposed of, were the Dothraki then supposed to turn around and support their Khaleesi's previously unknown nephew in his foreign conquest?

[acesn8s]

Dolorous Menhir, on 03 August 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

Abyss, on 03 August 2011 - 08:05 AM, said:

Which makes me wonder whether Tyrion's prediction of Dany rushing to Aegon's aid may be more than just speculation.

This is one bit I definitely don't get. Why were Illyrio and Varys running both Aegon and Viserys as potential kings? Daenerys's rise to power was not part of the plan, and it makes far more sense for them to install a young, thoroughly moulded Aegon in a Targaryen restoration. The plotters definitely have their heads screwed on, it seems inconceivable they would favour another Aerys over Rhaegar's boy.

So was Viserys always destined to die before he interfered with Aegon? He might have had value as a distraction, as everyone knew who the Beggar King was, but Aegon will be a lightning bolt from the blue. But if he was disposed of, were the Dothraki then supposed to turn around and support their Khaleesi's previously unknown nephew in his foreign conquest?

Or were they trying to maintain that whole, "the dragon has three heads" kinda thing?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Could be - Viserys, Daenerys & Aegon as the three heads? Hard to see how that was supposed to work in practice.

[Paran]

Yeah, Abyss, not enough love for the LamFREY pie.... mmm... vengeance both warm and cold later, you know, for breakfast.. it keeps I tell you, especially in winter!

I agree that the three main characters seemed stuck in loop for a lot of the book. I really believe that giving us some closure on the North battle and Mereen war would have made this a better book... too much was deferred to the next book, which seemed to happen in the last book.

WRT Varys, not sure why they bothered with Viseryrs in the first place if Aegon was already in the game. Also possibility that Aegon is fake, but how to say/prove?

No Bran love? It's good for you man, keeps you regular, but not Pale Mare regular, if you get what I mean... :ewww

Completely agree with your litmus test on wanting to reread.

This post has been edited by Paran: 05 August 2011 - 05:27 AM

[Abyss]

BRAN - good chapters, especially since GRRM dolled out a bit more creepy sorcery than usual. He's totally going to make a run for it and deny the whole 'become a tree' thing.

VICTORION - was actually good as well.


@cause - for one thing, at least one of the dudes stabbing Jon at the time was an opportunist who likely didn't give a crap about the Watch. I'm also wondering whether this was done deliberately to fake Jon's death.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 17 August 2011 - 05:16 AM, said:

@cause - for one thing, at least one of the dudes stabbing Jon at the time was an opportunist who likely didn't give a crap about the Watch. I'm also wondering whether this was done deliberately to fake Jon's death.

Then they ought to have stabbed him in the arms or legs, not in the intestines or neck, I guess.

[Abyss]

It remains to be seen just how much they stabbed him.

Jon dying at this point seems unlikely. Not unthinkable, but unlikely. On the other hand, a near-death could release him from being stuck on the Wall arguing about wildings and turnips for the next five books.

Anyhow, Melisandre is on hand, presumably with her magic fire of not dying, so there's at least one ready escape hatch.

[acesn8s]

Abyss, on 23 August 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

It remains to be seen just how much they stabbed him.

Jon dying at this point seems unlikely. Not unthinkable, but unlikely. On the other hand, a near-death could release him from being stuck on the Wall arguing about wildings and turnips for the next five books.

Anyhow, Melisandre is on hand, presumably with her magic fire of not dying, so there's at least one ready escape hatch.

That's an interesting thought. If he technically died and Mel brought him back, is his oath fullfilled?

[Abyss]

acesn8s, on 24 August 2011 - 12:14 PM, said:

...That's an interesting thought. If he technically died and Mel brought him back, is his oath fullfilled?

Ex. Actly.

Lets him off the hook from the Wall at least long enough to go kick Bolton's ass.

[Tatterdemalion]

I bet you Jon's alive. It was shocking when he went down, I admit - but the more I think about it the more I'm certain he'll return.

1. Melisandre.
2. Benjen Stark aka Cold Hands - Jon's free of his bonds to the night's watch if he's a zombie too. Snap!
3. General surviving

We considered something like the wights of Stark blood act differently than regular wights. I think Benjen is Cold Hands, but it is unexplained how he is sentient and benevolent while undead and obviously a wight, Maybe Jon will be similar. Make him powerful. He's ice, Melisandre's fire.

MY THOUGHTS:

I loved the book. I agree with most things said though too. I still see no reason for Dany to ever think trying to take over a city is a good idea.
-Asha's parts were cool but F I wish the chapters were just 'Asha.' That's who she is. She's not a new pov. Her pov was 'Asha' before, it should be 'Asha' again. I don't mind it for the new pov characters, though I admit I'd still rather see it less often or not at all, but the characters with pre-existing povs should have been left alone. Theon/Reek is an expection since recovering his name is integral to his storyline.
-My favourite chapter is when Reek is sent to Moat Cailin to get them to surrender. I don't know why. The mood and vibe of this chapter is great.
-Arya is going to be the most bad-ass ninja ever.
-Why are people afraid of Dany's dragons if it is increasingly obvious she can't control shit? They are as likely to torch her own friends as her enemies.
-I was annoyed at the part with the bridge in the mist and the greyscale whatnot. Everything about the scene was cool except the "Oh, we got lost in the fog and are going BACK under the bridge!" part. WTF. Just make a second bridge further down the river. Currents don't do that, even in fog, unless you force them. They'd never coincidentally turn upwind while chatting on the deck.
-Coolest word-play is Tyrion telling his captor he knows who he is. Then, once the guy leaves, a paragraph of his thoughts contains the name 'Mortmont' just out of the blue. Such a cool way to reveal that he's Ser Jorah. No fanfare, just casually within Tyrion's head - and the reader's know.
-Manderly was cool
-How many people's names and extended families are we going to hear of over the books? Lots, I bet.
-I really hope Bran doesn't just become some ghost in the machine
-Sad to see Ser Kevan go
-Loved the late-book quick update chapters: Cercei, Jaime, Arya, a few others
-Bringing other characters overseas was the bes tthing to happen to the Dany plot. I never liked her side of things - probably because she doesn't get far and is always the same pov. But with Tyrion overseas, Jon Connington, Quentin and Ser Barristan, you really get a feeling that the Game of Thrones exists out there too.
-Dany's Drogon riding and final chapters are great

AND MY LEAST FAVOURITE THING OF ALL
From the TV show news for season 2:

Why oh God why when given the characters Asha Greyjoy and wilding woman Osha would you choose to change ASHA'S name for the TV market? Who the f#%%@ is Osha?!?!?! She is irrelevant, whoever she is. Don't change the Greyjoy daughter on her account. This random decision leaves me unaccountably angry. "Yara"?

[worry]

Cold Hands might be Benjen but I always wondered what happened to Stonesnake too. I agree with a lot of the things you said. As far as the fog/bridge scene, I got the distinct feeling that there was sorcery going on. Not necessarily a sorcerer controlling it, but that there was some supernatural nature to the fog and various events within it...so I don't think it was a mere coincidence of river tides that got them turned about. Bran is destined to fly so I think maybe the dragon-rider theories might come to pass (and Stannis/Mel do apparently have that fourth egg, though I'm not sure it's been seen), but I suppose he could also wind up "flying" through the ravens. And finally, you raise a good point about the name change. I didn't mind it at first (and still don't really), but yah, they did switch the more important character's name when they coulda done it the other way.

[Abyss]

I'm also on the ColdHands=Benjen side, altho we've really seen nothing to suggest it. It appears the reason he's 'good' is because the current tree-Stark and the little people were able to hack his command spells or something. I'm still expecting Bran to pull a runner, however.

Bran flying.. i'm pretty sure is a ref to him warging thru ravens and so on, not dragons, altho that would be cool.


I also took the bridge thing to be random supernatural.


Now that i think about it, Khrazz telling Selmy to "Take off that armour!" was one of the most inadvertantly funny things i have read in mid-fight commentary in a fantasy book.

[Tatterdemalion]

It kind of makes you think that whoever Dany gets as her army they will suck and die versus Westeros knights. Ser Jorah did the same thing in Game of Thrones (though I only remember from the show) He explains how arkhs are crappy vs armour and then kills a guy attacking him with an arkh to prove it. Not that Selmy isn't one of the baddest blades around, but if most knights have the same result then fancy bloodriders be damned, the invading army is going to suck. Should-a married Quentin.

It would be cool to see Bran become 'important' again - because for the first 2/3rds of Game of Thrones you think he's the main character.