[Kanese S's]

I really like D'rek's idea.

Also, one thing I just thought of... the plague in Seven Cities. Beyond the rebellion, that was what really put the Empire in a difficult position regarding food supply. It may not have been anticipated and could have been what screwed up previous arrangements.

Lastly, regarding Laseen playing an apparently petty game to stay in control of the Empire... I can see her reasoning being that you have to be in charge to get what you want done.

Basically, she can go with the real story, and not allow any settling in Wickan lands, and risk widespread famine. And thus, the Empire collapses. Especially given the events of RotCG, I think this would be the likely outcome. And if that happens, she either gets killed or essentially has to run away and can pretty much do fuck-all about TCG and other worldwide issues, lacking any power after the Empire's collapse besides her martial arts prowess.

Or she can do what she thinks will stave off starvation and keep the Empire together. Which she did. Just prior to getting killed in RotCG, she had pretty much won. The Talian rebellion was crushed, the Crimson Guard pretty much defeated, the Claw purged, etc. And then she got killed by Taya.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 30 July 2011 - 06:25 AM

[nacht]

D, on 30 July 2011 - 05:49 AM, said:

nacht, on 30 July 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:

What is really interesting is Tavore's decision. She had actively won Lasseen's trust by getting rid of the nobility that she was part off (even sacrificing her sister).
But for some reason, she could not support Lasseen on the Wickans and therefore no longer was the Adjunct (the will of the empress).

The reason might not simply be the love for Nil, Nether and the Wickans. I think she foresaw the existential threat posed by the crippled god to the world of Wu and decided that striking out on her own is the best option. Lasseen seemed to be to preoccupied with local politics.
In addition, I think in this respect Tavore was aligned with ST and Cots from the very beginning. ST and COTS at some point stopped worrying about their empire and started worrying about bigger things (which prompted Lasseen to take over)

The possibility of a contrast between what Tavore knew and what Laseen knew of greater events in the world is an interesting issue. It's hard to imagine Laseen being unaware of what was going on in the world, considering how well informed her top generals are and the extremely specific knowledge she's been shown to have at other times. If you assume she did know of greater events in the world and the threat of TCG, then you have to believe that either Laseen is a terrible judge of character - and was therefore taken in by Dom and Rel and thought she could get Tavore and Kalam to help her - or that Laseen is an excellent judge of character - and was aware of Dom/Rel's manipulations, as well as knew that Kalam and Tavore would not accept Laseen's supposed offer.

With Tavore, it is not as easy to judge how much she knew of greater events at that time, but the later books seem to favour her knowing quite a bit and having already set herself the goal and plan of taking her army to Lether and opposing the FA and gods. But she already was planning this at the time, why bring the army back to Malaz City at all? Personally, I think Tavore was returning to Laseen with the expectation that Laseen would then issue her new orders to take the 14th to Lether and fulfill the same goals. She might even have expected to receive more reinforcements from the heart of the empire before setting out. This could be either because Tavore and Laseen had worked the plan out ahead of time, together. Or, it could be that Tavore simply expected Laseen to be aware of the danger, and Tavore had made sure her army was a fighting force ready for the challenge. In either case, when I see that meeting in Mock's Hold, I see Laseen and Tavore both knowing the next step Tavore must take, but feigning a Malazan-centric meeting for the sake of Dom and Rel. Beneath the feint, Laseen is telling Tavore that the Empire can't giver her any help, that it's all on Tavore's shoulders to save the world. And Tavore is telling Laseen that it will be done anyways.

In that case, why would she have actively opposed Tavore. If not for T'amber, Kalam, Apsalar and many others, Tavore would have died.

[Gust Hubb]

nacht, don't forget, by the time Tavore met with Lassen, Mallick and Dom had figuratively tied her hands and much like in NoK, the coup was consolidating its power over the Empress and her Empire. Thus, the hazards that Tavore faced returning to her fleet was that of Mallick's infiltrated Claw and the the turmoil of the coup. Lassen, at that point, was hog-tied, unable to do much but ride out the storm.

[IgnatiusKruppe]

I find it difficult to believe that Lorn was the first Adjunct, or even that Surlaseen created the position.

There is that one scene in GOTM (i know, i know) where Lorn, Tattersail, Toc, Tays,Dujek, maybe Nok or Paran kinda blanking on the last people, are at a dinner party or something and Lorn confronts Tattersail about the events in the
Mouse that ended up sending Lorn down the road to being Adjunct. The way it's written makes it seem like The Adjunctcy is this thing that's much bigger than The Adjunct, as Lorn's
personal feelings & motivations crumble under and all that's left is the Adjunct,

Probably the single best written scene in GOTM & one of the best in the entire series..well worth picking up and reading again to catch the details of the "death" of Lorn
as her own person and her rebirth in the crucible of Adjunctcy. Perhaps Laseen went with Tavore because she knew Tavore's skull was as thick as a Trell's torso
and that there would be a time when the Adjunct would need to -feel- like she was splitting from the will of the Empire in order for the Empire to survive it's internal threats.
Basically, a double down on the outlawry of Dujek. Apparently in order to run this Empire, you need to be pretty crafty. Kellanved says "Sure Surly go ahead, make your own
Claw" and then whispers to Dancer that the Talon best be ready before the Claw.