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I just finished Ghost Story... SPOILER

#41 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:02 PM

View PostObdigore, on 16 August 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

View PostKing Kazma, on 16 August 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

View PostBriar King, on 15 August 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:

It is now in Forthills care after White Night when she sacrifised herself.


Dammit it WAS WHITE NIGHT (not BLOOD RIGHTS), and thanks for BK who recently ran through the entire series like a boss for current location of Lasciel's Denarian coin...

...which wait a minute...puts that "demon whispering in Harry's ear" thing into a new light...since he was laying on Forthill's cot in the room next to his secret safe....hmmm....possibility that the whispering demon was Lasciel is raised.

Good find team!


But how is that cheating? Lash indicated that the fallen can get on holy ground but generally dont because it makes them feel.

It had to have been someone who 'couldn't' have been there, so I assume it had to have been the Devil.


A fair point.

Hmm....
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#42 User is offline   20 Days of Sheep 

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 06:17 PM

I didnt think it could be Lasciel in anycase because she is trapped in the coin until someone takes her into themselves. So it had to be one of the freed fallen or THE Ultimate Fallen Angel....right?
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#43 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:47 AM

View PostKing Kazma, on 15 August 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 13 August 2011 - 01:23 AM, said:

View PostParan, on 08 August 2011 - 03:25 AM, said:

What if the whole point of the whispered words was to force the path Harry took, not in killing himself, but towards the post of Winter Knight? Probably being addressed in Cold Days.

BTW, saw no evidence of Lash in this book??


I believe Lash was the parasite mentioned by Mab or Demonreach at the end of the book.


Lasciel.

"Lash" was the mirror image of Lasciel (brought on by touching the Denarian coin and not possessing it) in Harry's head that he corrupted to be good, but she died in the use of power exhibited in BLOOD RITES finale.

Butcher has made sure to differentiate the two as differing entities.

If that whispered words demon was Lasciel (I have my doubts, but maybe) then it was certainly the real deal Denarian...

though it raises a point...

The Denarian Coin for Lasciel (IIRC) was last buried inside the Copper circle embedded int he floor of Harry's lab 'neath his house...which was destroyed in CHANGES, and is now the location of Marconi's Justice League HQ...does that mean Lasciel's coin is still buried under the earth of the new HQ?


I know the difference between Lash and Lasciel and I meant Lash. As Jim has said, death is kind of squishy in the Dresden universe and we had examples of that first hand in Ghost Story.

Re other comments: The coin was likely not still in Father Forthill's room. It was given to him for safekeeping and would have ended up in whatever repository the Church has for such things, he would not have kept it in his room.

The cheating part is that angels (fallen and otherwise) are not allowed to interfere with mortals, except in specific circumstances. The Denarians are an exception due to their circumstances, but there are many other fallen who could have been whispering to Harry.
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#44 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 02:18 AM

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

View PostKing Kazma, on 15 August 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 13 August 2011 - 01:23 AM, said:

View PostParan, on 08 August 2011 - 03:25 AM, said:

What if the whole point of the whispered words was to force the path Harry took, not in killing himself, but towards the post of Winter Knight? Probably being addressed in Cold Days.

BTW, saw no evidence of Lash in this book??


I believe Lash was the parasite mentioned by Mab or Demonreach at the end of the book.


Lasciel.

"Lash" was the mirror image of Lasciel (brought on by touching the Denarian coin and not possessing it) in Harry's head that he corrupted to be good, but she died in the use of power exhibited in BLOOD RITES finale.

Butcher has made sure to differentiate the two as differing entities.

If that whispered words demon was Lasciel (I have my doubts, but maybe) then it was certainly the real deal Denarian...

though it raises a point...

The Denarian Coin for Lasciel (IIRC) was last buried inside the Copper circle embedded int he floor of Harry's lab 'neath his house...which was destroyed in CHANGES, and is now the location of Marconi's Justice League HQ...does that mean Lasciel's coin is still buried under the earth of the new HQ?


I know the difference between Lash and Lasciel and I meant Lash. As Jim has said, death is kind of squishy in the Dresden universe and we had examples of that first hand in Ghost Story.




Well in that case I REALLY disagree with you simply because the Lash WE knew that became good in the end of WHITE NIGHT and saved Harry's life sacrificing herself would NOT have whispered in his ear in GHOST STORY...sorry but that's WAY out of character. When I thought you meant Lasciel it at least made sense for that character...Lash whispering doesn't make any sense.
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#45 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 02:57 AM

Maybe I missed something, where does it say that the person whispering in Harry's ear was the parasite?
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#46 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:45 AM

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 02:57 AM, said:

Maybe I missed something, where does it say that the person whispering in Harry's ear was the parasite?


the whole discussion about that incident Harry has with Uriel is how "the other side" cheated to get Harry dead, the entire conversation implies that it was evil forces nudging him to make a decision that would end up with him dying. It's not implied that it's specifically a parasite, just a force of evil...you brought up Lash...sorry did you lose track of your own thread point?
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#47 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:51 AM

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

The cheating part is that angels (fallen and otherwise) are not allowed to interfere with ...(mortals DECISIONS process, they can interfere with mortals just fine and I imagine the fallen ones do...a lot), except in specific circumstances. The Denarians are an exception due to their circumstances ( < ----sorry, what? "Their circumstances " is quite vague if you are trying to qualify why "Denarian fallen angels" differ from "regular ass fallen angels"), but there are many other fallen who could have been whispering to Harry. ( < ---this bit is at least accurate)



Fixed.
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#48 User is offline   20 Days of Sheep 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:16 AM

I still dont see Lasciel as being the culprit whispering. She is still in "limbo" as are most of the other 30. My thoughts are either: Nico's shadow buddy, or Lucifer himself. Thoughts on this anyone?
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#49 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:31 AM

View PostKing Kazma, on 17 August 2011 - 03:45 AM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 02:57 AM, said:

Maybe I missed something, where does it say that the person whispering in Harry's ear was the parasite?


the whole discussion about that incident Harry has with Uriel is how "the other side" cheated to get Harry dead, the entire conversation implies that it was evil forces nudging him to make a decision that would end up with him dying. It's not implied that it's specifically a parasite, just a force of evil...you brought up Lash...sorry did you lose track of your own thread point?


I was never referring to the incident where Harry was whispered to when I was saying Lash was the parasite, maybe I missed something upthread that clarified that the post I was replying to was in reference to that point in the story, as the post itself did not mention it.

The parasite I am talking about is the one mentioned by Demonreach, as in "MAB GAVE YOU BREATH. HERE PROVIDED NOURISHMENT. THE PARASITE MAINTAINED THE FLOW OF BLOOD" (PG 474)
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#50 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:35 AM

View PostKing Kazma, on 17 August 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

The cheating part is that angels (fallen and otherwise) are not allowed to interfere with ...(mortals DECISIONS process, they can interfere with mortals just fine and I imagine the fallen ones do...a lot), except in specific circumstances. The Denarians are an exception due to their circumstances ( < ----sorry, what? "Their circumstances " is quite vague if you are trying to qualify why "Denarian fallen angels" differ from "regular ass fallen angels"), but there are many other fallen who could have been whispering to Harry. ( < ---this bit is at least accurate)



Fixed.


Uhh, perhaps their circumstances differ because Denarians have their essence locked in coins and cannot interact with reality (or anything at all for that matter) to any great extent without the help of a human host? I sort of thought that was self evident.

This post has been edited by Gwynn ap Nudd: 17 August 2011 - 04:36 AM

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#51 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:36 AM

View PostBriar King, on 17 August 2011 - 04:16 AM, said:

I still dont see Lasciel as being the culprit whispering. She is still in "limbo" as are most of the other 30. My thoughts are either: Nico's shadow buddy, or Lucifer himself. Thoughts on this anyone?


I'm definitely inclined to agree with you about that BK, I never thought it was Lasciel when I read it.

though if there is some connection between Forthill having the coin...I dunno...but yeah it would be better if it was some unseen baddie.
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#52 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:39 AM

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 04:35 AM, said:

View PostKing Kazma, on 17 August 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

The cheating part is that angels (fallen and otherwise) are not allowed to interfere with ...(mortals DECISIONS process, they can interfere with mortals just fine and I imagine the fallen ones do...a lot), except in specific circumstances. The Denarians are an exception due to their circumstances ( < ----sorry, what? "Their circumstances " is quite vague if you are trying to qualify why "Denarian fallen angels" differ from "regular ass fallen angels"), but there are many other fallen who could have been whispering to Harry. ( < ---this bit is at least accurate)



Fixed.


Uhh, perhaps their circumstances differ because Denarians have their essence locked in coins and cannot interact with reality (or anything at all for that matter) to any great extent without the help of a human host? I sort of thought that was self evident.


You shouldn't "ASSUME" your audience knows of what you speak and use that as a reason to be vague. To me "their circumstances" is vaguery and I had no idea what you were getting at.

I also disagree with you, but that's another can of worms and there's no need to derail the thread further.
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#53 User is offline   Gwynn ap Nudd 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:45 AM

I believe I know what you are getting at with your disagreement, and I actually agree with you. In which case the reason it would be called cheating when the fallen, of whatever sort, spoke to Harry should be obvious. How's that for being vague?
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#54 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:48 AM

View PostGwynn ap Nudd, on 17 August 2011 - 04:45 AM, said:

I believe I know what you are getting at with your disagreement, and I actually agree with you. In which case the reason it would be called cheating when the fallen, of whatever sort, spoke to Harry should be obvious. How's that for being vague?


I'm confused.

J/K :p

LOL
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#55 User is offline   20 Days of Sheep 

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 12:26 PM

You 2 are confusing ME!! lmfao!!!!!
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#56 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 05:19 AM

I don't see how Lash or Lasciel could be the parasite. More likely that's something new we'll see next book.

As for whatever Fallen manipulated Harry, tough call. All denarians are fallen agnels but we don't actually know whether all fallen angels are denarians. The interesting part is that whatever the origin, a fallen angel took steps to manipulate Harry into becoming the Winter Knight, which suggests either the obvious plot to corrupt him, or possibly and les slikely, some form of alliance between Mab and a fallen.
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