[FastBen]

 Tyr, on 23 August 2011 - 02:32 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 22 August 2011 - 05:09 AM, said:

(where everyone is basically a High Fidelity character or Comic Book Guy come to life)

Worst. Book. Ever.

 FastBen, on 22 August 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

Spoiler

I loved Theon's growth as a character - it looks like he might actually find some redemption and have some sort of hand in reclaiming Winterfell.

Umm what? He was an absolutely brilliant character in ASOS.. He did not grow much as a character, he got a redemption(ish) arc ala Jaime. Or does growing as a character only apply if the character becomes good-er?

Spoiler

The whole point of Reek was to shatter the person Theon once was...

Where art my righteous defenders of SOS Theon?

Actually, Theon doesn't appear in SOS. Are you sure you read the series? You sound a bit confused....

Spoiler

How did he not grow as a character? He's absolutely a shadow of what he once was as Reek - he's basically treated like a dog and he's a quasi-amnesiac at the beginning of the book. Later after reclaiming his identity, he admits regret to himself about invading Winterfell - and feels remorse about how he betrayed the Starks. His willingness to help Jeyne Poole comes partly as a result of the remorse he feels for past disgraces. Maybe redemption isn't so much the best way to put it with its Christian connotations of complete forgiveness - its more like Theon is given an opportunity to reclaim a bit of honor. If he didn't feel any remorse he'd be a pretty straight-up one dimensional villain - or simply a lapdog for Ramsay Bolton. He's reminiscent of great literary characters who make small amends for betrayals for vicious crimes - like Raskilnikov in Crime in Punishment. A character doesn't have to be a "do-gooder" to be interesting, Theon is in fact far from it - but if he remained purely evil without any humanity to the character he'd simply be boring enough for a children's book.

The book was fantastic - The Caesar-eque attempted assassination of Jon Snow while a Giant rages in the background, Ser Barristan's transgressing his duty as a knight to play the game of thrones, the absolutely vicious letter that Ramsay wrote Jon, the parading of Cersei naked through the streets, the return of Varys, Tyrion being sold to a grotesquerie, Daenyerys riding off on her dragon .... plenty of epic moments. Martin is simply one of the best writers word-for-word in fantasy - he's succinct, he has a talent for word selection, he's gritty and funny, and his characters still have more depth than anything else out there. I've read plenty of crap and I know crap books - and this isn't one of them. But if you seriously think this is the "Worst. Book. Ever" - I'd really like you to make me a reading list sometime - because my standards must be much lower than yours.

This post has been edited by FastBen: 24 August 2011 - 04:07 AM

[Paran]

I'm glad some of you liked it. For me, this book didn't have any closure. No climax, no close. Sure, cliffhangers abound, but this book can't stand on its own two feet and I really can't accept that.

[Nuto]

 FastBen, on 23 August 2011 - 05:29 AM, said:

Actually, Theon doesn't appear in SOS. Are you sure you read the series? You sound a bit confused....

That's not entirely true, a part of him shows up

[Tyr]

 FastBen, on 23 August 2011 - 05:29 AM, said:

Actually, Theon doesn't appear in SOS. Are you sure you read the series? You sound a bit confused....

Spoiler

How did he not grow as a character? He's absolutely a shadow of what he once was as Reek - he's basically treated like a dog and he's a quasi-amnesiac at the beginning of the book. Later after reclaiming his identity, he admits regret to himself about invading Winterfell - and feels remorse about how he betrayed the Starks. His willingness to help Jeyne Poole comes partly as a result of the remorse he feels for past disgraces. Maybe redemption isn't so much the best way to put it with its Christian connotations of complete forgiveness - its more like Theon is given an opportunity to reclaim a bit of honor. If he didn't feel any remorse he'd be a pretty straight-up one dimensional villain - or simply a lapdog for Ramsay Bolton. He's reminiscent of great literary characters who make small amends for betrayals for vicious crimes - like Raskilnikov in Crime in Punishment. His willingness to help a re-read might help you recognize that. A character doesn't have to be a "do-gooder" to be interesting, Theon is in fact far from it - but if he remained purely evil without any humanity to the character he'd simply be boring enough for a children's book.

The book was fantastic - The Caesar-eque attempted assassination of Jon Snow while a Giant rages in the background, Ser Barristan's transgressing his duty as a knight to play the game of thrones, the absolutely vicious letter that Ramsay wrote Jon, the parading of Cersei naked through the streets, the return of Varys, Tyrion being sold to a grotesquerie, Daenyerys riding off on her dragon .... plenty of epic moments. Martin is simply one of the best writers word-for-word in fantasy - he's succinct, he has a talent for word selection, he's gritty and funny, and his characters still have more depth than anything else out there. I've read plenty of crap and I know crap books - and this isn't one of them. But if you seriously think this is the "Worst. Book. Ever" - I'd really like you to make me a reading list sometime - because my standards must be much lower than yours.

I meant CoK sorry. And Theon was a better character in CoK. In no way was he a one-dimensional villain.

[Ceda Cicero]

Tyr, would you say this is a fairly accurate summary of your issue with DANCE:

-Bronn doesn't show up. Is mentioned only once, in passing.

-Dany gets a lot of chapters.

??

While I'm firmly more in FastBen's camp and hold the book around 3.5-4 stars, one thing I will say is that this book threw fuel on the fire where Dany-haters are concerned, and for someone like me who was always fairly optimistic about Dany, this book made my views of her take a big, big downward spiral. Which I know it was sort of supposed to do. But the whole "she has briefly forgotten how to be a dragon but will return to the Dothraki sea and live with Drogo for a while and remember how" angle wasn't really pronounced enough for it to be effective, and instead a lot of the Meereen chapters where we're supposed to be super-concerned over the fact that she's losing her way and invested in her re-embracing her Aegon the Conqueror roots just wound up feeling like filler.

Daario could be out. Period. Unless there's some major climax to their relationship in the next book (and even then, I really just don't care to see it, even if it involves a Martin-esque twist), he could just go. We've already had the "Dany can't trust men or, now that she's the Mother of Dragons and Queen of Meereen, ever have a functional relationship with one again" trope, why did we need it again, and so MUCH of it?

This was really my only MAJOR qualm with the book, and as I said, I still enjoyed it on the whole. Take out 90% of Dany's languishing in Meereen and banging Daario and instead shift either the Meereen climax, the battle in the North, or hell, even just Tyrion coming face-to-face with Dany up from the beginning of the next book, and the whole thing would've been improved.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 23 August 2011 - 01:57 PM

[Abyss]

I tend to agree with you Ceda - Dany spent entirely too much time angsting and circling around the same plot point. Her chapters didn't so much advance as stall, reiterating the same points and conflicts again and again.

I had a similar problem with Jon's storyline.

[Tapper]

 Ceda Cicero, on 23 August 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

Tyr, would you say this is a fairly accurate summary of your issue with DANCE:

-Bronn doesn't show up. Is mentioned only once, in passing.

-Dany gets a lot of chapters.

??

While I'm firmly more in FastBen's camp and hold the book around 3.5-4 stars, one thing I will say is that this book threw fuel on the fire where Dany-haters are concerned, and for someone like me who was always fairly optimistic about Dany, this book made my views of her take a big, big downward spiral. Which I know it was sort of supposed to do. But the whole "she has briefly forgotten how to be a dragon but will return to the Dothraki sea and live with Drogo for a while and remember how" angle wasn't really pronounced enough for it to be effective, and instead a lot of the Meereen chapters where we're supposed to be super-concerned over the fact that she's losing her way and invested in her re-embracing her Aegon the Conqueror roots just wound up feeling like filler.

Funny. I finally thought that she was stagnant as a character and that in a way, this represented growth as she finally doesn't succeed in something she sets out to do. I'll agree that if you don't like her to begin with, this book will make yuo hate her more.

Quote

Daario could be out. Period. Unless there's some major climax to their relationship in the next book (and even then, I really just don't care to see it, even if it involves a Martin-esque twist), he could just go. We've already had the "Dany can't trust men or, now that she's the Mother of Dragons and Queen of Meereen, ever have a functional relationship with one again" trope, why did we need it again, and so MUCH of it?

I personally think he has a much bigger role to play. Daenerys thinks Brown Ben Plumm one of her prophecied traitors when a) there was actually zero effect from his defection she has no more emotional investment in him than she has in Fat Belwas or random dude X c) he'll likely return.
I bet Daario is going to pull some major nasty stuff on either her or her age old companions (Missandei, the hand maidens, perhaps even on Selmy, although he is far too boss for that to happen). For now, only Daario seems the likely person to really mess with her groove.

Quote

This was really my only MAJOR qualm with the book, and as I said, I still enjoyed it on the whole. Take out 90% of Dany's languishing in Meereen and banging Daario and instead shift either the Meereen climax, the battle in the North, or hell, even just Tyrion coming face-to-face with Dany up from the beginning of the next book, and the whole thing would've been improved.

Some more headway here or there would have been appreciated, yeah. Considering Martin's sometime admission that some characters have started lives of their own in his head rather than firmly sticking to his original purpose for them, I guess he wanted to postpone making decisions on their futures for another round. For Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, Stannis, Baelish, Varys, Daenerys and the Starks, this is probably not so: he has a plan for them, but with Asha, Theon, Selmy, Hota, Brienne and others it may well be that this is holding him back from giving us content instead of cliffhangers.

[Tyr]

 Ceda Cicero, on 23 August 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

Tyr, would you say this is a fairly accurate summary of your issue with DANCE:

-Bronn doesn't show up. Is mentioned only once, in passing.

-Dany gets a lot of chapters.

??

Part of the reason. The other part is that nothing happens, and worst of all, nothing happens in a place that no one cares about.

I moaned and groaned and damn near shed tears whenever I saw a Tyrion chapter pop up. How could the Imp have some of the most boring chapters I have read in this series? Jon did a whole bunch of nothing apart from that Slynt business, Stannis does nothing, Davos does nothing, Theon does nothing, no one does anything... The story goes no where and worst of all it is not interesting. At least AFFC was interesting.

Oh yes, our designated hero gets to show her weakness before another Deus ex Machina happens, propelling her once again to the vanguard of the series.

It was long and boring and absolutely not what I expected. I expected the second half of the book to be everyone meeting up with Dany and then by the end, the wall falls, or Dany arrives on Westeros, or something to that manner. Nope, guess we need more time to develop stuff..

This post has been edited by Tyr: 23 August 2011 - 08:49 PM

[worry]

I liked Essos plenty (and always have). I wasn't bored at all by Dany or Tyrion. Agree with Tapper about what Dany's stagnation represents for her, as an idealistic teenager barely out of puberty coming to terms with the fact that she may have bitten off more than she can chew in her anger. I actually think GRRM's done a remarkable job of maintaining the truth of the kid characters' ages despite what they are going through. Even Jojen and Meera, who seemed so rock steady in earlier volumes when they were in their element, are having to come to terms with their fallibility. Not to say Dany's story didn't seem a little bit padded, but it mostly made perfect sense. Jon's is the only thread that seemed artificially stalled in spots, to me.

[FastBen]

 worrywort, on 23 August 2011 - 10:44 PM, said:

I liked Essos plenty (and always have). I wasn't bored at all by Dany or Tyrion. Agree with Tapper about what Dany's stagnation represents for her, as an idealistic teenager barely out of puberty coming to terms with the fact that she may have bitten off more than she can chew in her anger. I actually think GRRM's done a remarkable job of maintaining the truth of the kid characters' ages despite what they are going through. Even Jojen and Meera, who seemed so rock steady in earlier volumes when they were in their element, are having to come to terms with their fallibility. Not to say Dany's story didn't seem a little bit padded, but it mostly made perfect sense. Jon's is the only thread that seemed artificially stalled in spots, to me.

Good points about Dany. I agree that Dany realized that being a queen wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Dany is too much Ned Stark for her own good and not enough Tywin Lannister - her unwillingness to re-open the fighting pits angered all parties - even the fighters themselves - and her idealistic notions about freedom somewhat backfired, as many freed men often lived better lives as slaves. This led to a negative opinion of Dany amongst the Mereneese and this is what prompted her to take on a purely political marriage. Dany is still being governed by her heart and not her head, and this is why she is not able to be an effective ruler. One thing becomes clear about Dany - she really doesn't belong in Pentos - she's never quite been able to completely assimilate herself into the Pentos way of life. And...there are some hints of possible mental illness here - this is a possible route that Martin is taking - since Dany might actually possess some of the "crazy" gene from her line of Targaryens. All in all, I enjoyed the Dany thread and Pentos. Pentos is less aristocratic and more merchant controlled leading to a very capitalistic contrast to the royal families that control Westeros. I always thought the contrast worked nicely.

The whole book it appeared as if Tyrion would end up in Dany's court. Then he kept getting sidetracked and never got there - Martin denied us that greatly anticipated meeting. Watching Tyrion live in hiding as a pauper and a slave was interesting, since we know that Tyrion prefers wine, warm beds, and expensive women. Also, Tyrion is many things - but he's not a killer and we started to see Tyrion see himself as a killer and come to terms with that. Him performing with another dwarf and traveling with another dwarf is making him come to terms with being just a dwarf and no longer a noble dwarf Lordling with power. Once again, its the theme of identity in play here - Tyrion must pretend he's not Tyrion in order not to get shipped back to his sister. There are still layers to Tyrion's character that we are unraveling - and he still has some big part to play when the shitstorm hits Westeros.

Concerning Jon - I actually thought his storyline was the one of the standouts. From the beginning when he shows his willingness to dole out justice (possibly some personal revenge too?) on Janos Slynt - we are seeing Jon develop as a natural leader. However, these are unique times for the Wall and he's not playing by the book. He united the wall with the wildlings against a common enemy - this is a huge deal - but people don't like change and that doesn't sit well with a lot of his brothers. His downfall was tragic and a result of hubris - and this was so soon after he recruited the wildlings to march down to Winterfell. His decision came just too late as an assassination plot had already been set into motion. Jon had a change of heart but not quickly enough - he fits the tragic mold of many great characters.

I

[worry]

Yah, I actually liked Jon's development plenty, I just thought it took too long in actual chronological time compared to other stories -- and I imagine it's because GRRM was lining up the stories without being able to do that 5 year time lapse he had planned. Because Jon didn't comport himself as wishy washy at all, from the very beginning of this book, it felt occasionally like he was stalling for no reason to carry out decisions he had apparently made. Can't think of any off the top of my head though, just a feeling I had, so I could just be remembering wrong. So GRRM had to actually do the busy-work of table-setting instead of skipping a chunk of time. Where I agree with you and differ with others apparently, is that I still found everything that happened -- diversions and all -- quite interesting. The world doesn't revolve around King's Landing, after all (and Malazan fans of all people should appreciate that approach!!).

[Ceda Cicero]

 worrywort, on 24 August 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

Yah, I actually liked Jon's development plenty, I just thought it took too long in actual chronological time compared to other stories -- and I imagine it's because GRRM was lining up the stories without being able to do that 5 year time lapse he had planned. Because Jon didn't comport himself as wishy washy at all, from the very beginning of this book, it felt occasionally like he was stalling for no reason to carry out decisions he had apparently made. Can't think of any off the top of my head though, just a feeling I had, so I could just be remembering wrong. So GRRM had to actually do the busy-work of table-setting instead of skipping a chunk of time. Where I agree with you and differ with others apparently, is that I still found everything that happened -- diversions and all -- quite interesting. The world doesn't revolve around King's Landing, after all (and Malazan fans of all people should appreciate that approach!!).

Am definitely on board with all your ideas, wort, Jon and otherwise. Especially the thoughts you have on Essos in your previous post, and what you say about the world "not revolving around King's Landing." The very, very first sentence out of my mouth when someone asked me my first impressions of DANCE, before I had time to digest or process or even consider my disappointment in certain places, was "Martin has absolutely upped his game in the world-building department with this one." And I think it's funny that in a series that a lot of die-hard fans criticized as lacking in world-building that is both/either broad and/or deep over the first three books, diehard fans are now turning on the author despite the fact that no one can deny he's taken his world-building to levels and places no one saw coming.

I am just no longer buying the criticism from haters of the book that it sucks on the basis that "not enough happened." And I think that's because with this book I firmly decided to set myself in Martin's camp, as someone who had a decidedly tumultuous love/hate relationship with him during the wait for DANCE and was known to unleash periodic rants against him. So take that for what it's worth, I've gone from being undecided (with strong leanings towards despising Martin for both the apparent direction after FEAST and the delay) to an unapologetic supporter.

That said, as I've said before, and will say again now, I really and truly believe that a lot of the vehement criticisms and vitriol being poured out over DANCE from within the fanbase would be less vehement and less vitriolic without the delays and the waits and the mundane issues. Does that make them any less legitimate? Certainly not. Does that mean, perhaps, that they are sourced at least to some degree in external factors that may not necessarily have to do with the intrinsic value of the work of literature at hand? Possibly.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 24 August 2011 - 01:50 AM

[FastBen]

 worrywort, on 24 August 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

Yah, I actually liked Jon's development plenty, I just thought it took too long in actual chronological time compared to other stories -- and I imagine it's because GRRM was lining up the stories without being able to do that 5 year time lapse he had planned. Because Jon didn't comport himself as wishy washy at all, from the very beginning of this book, it felt occasionally like he was stalling for no reason to carry out decisions he had apparently made. Can't think of any off the top of my head though, just a feeling I had, so I could just be remembering wrong. So GRRM had to actually do the busy-work of table-setting instead of skipping a chunk of time. Where I agree with you and differ with others apparently, is that I still found everything that happened -- diversions and all -- quite interesting. The world doesn't revolve around King's Landing, after all (and Malazan fans of all people should appreciate that approach!!).

True enough - maybe we could have done without some of the mid-book Jon chapters and compacted his story a little more. His story might have been able to be managed better. I agree about the world not revolving around King's Landing - I actually thought in this book Pentos really proved itself as being just as rich of a world politically as Westeros, with all the competing merchant, slaver, and mercenary interests.

[blackzoid]

I'm confused. Tyrion was in Pentos for only 1-2 chapters right? And only the Fat Guy's courtyard?
I presume you mean Meereen and/or Volantis and the general Essos area?


"Take out 90% of Dany's languishing in Meereen and banging Daario and instead shift either the Meereen climax, the battle in the North, or hell, even just Tyrion coming face-to-face with Dany up from the beginning of the next book, and the whole thing would've been improved."

Thats.....almost an entirely different book! And yes, it would have been much better. Thats what the detracters who award it 2 out of 5 on Amazon are mostly complaining about. Filler and the removal of climaxes so the story structures for the North and Meereen do not come to natural ends, they just cut-off. How can Winds of Winter start with the climax of two battles from the previous book's storylines? Won't that throw the structure of that book out of whack?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 24 August 2011 - 11:24 AM

[champ]

I really wish I hadn't bothered sticking with this book... the ending - what ending? - cliffhangers... fuck me, how I hate them with a passion...

[FastBen]

 blackzoid, on 24 August 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

I'm confused. Tyrion was in Pentos for only 1-2 chapters right? And only the Fat Guy's courtyard?
I presume you mean Meereen and/or Volantis and the general Essos area?

Oops my mistake. I've been using Pentos to refer to the entire continent and not Essos. I must have got the names confused in my head. Thanks for the reminder.

[worry]

 blackzoid, on 24 August 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

Won't that throw the structure of that book out of whack?

One can only hope! Even the mild changes and experiments in AFFC and ADWD were a breath of fresh air. I love the first three as much as the next guy, but I don't need a mirror image of them on the back half. Unless that mirror gets shattered by a hammer first.

[blackzoid]

Ok, but take it another way. Would you have preferred if ASOS had started with the Battle of the Blackwater? Say right after the prologue. Because thats kind of the situation that we have now. How would that affect ACOK and ASOS?

I think ACOK would be deemed a poorer book as it would end without a resolution and I would think that ASOS would than be crammed and perhaps stuff from it would have to be cut, perhaps the wilding assault upon the wall.
Is that better? I would think no.

I know the series is considered one big story, but I think that each book should ideally have its own resolution/climax where possible. SE did it with each of his, except for Dust of Dreams in the case of the Bonehunters storyline. So has Bakker so far. But it seems to me that ADWD, especially in the cases of Stannis and the Meereen storylines, seem to be chapters just strung together. Some of those chapters are indivudally brilliant. Reeks especially. Martin's pov innovation is fantastic. But that doesn't make a great book, just great individual bits of a book.
There is no resolution to whole storylines. Not the series ending storylines, just the interium middle-book storylines, like what you would see in The Bonehunters which was SE's middle book. It doesn't feel like a complete book.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 25 August 2011 - 10:26 AM

[Ceda Cicero]

 blackzoid, on 25 August 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

Ok, but take it another way. Would you have preferred if ASOS had started with the Battle of the Blackwater? Say right after the prologue. Because thats kind of the situation that we have now. How would that affect ACOK and ASOS?

I think ACOK would be deemed a poorer book as it would end without a resolution and I would think that ASOS would than be crammed and perhaps stuff from it would have to be cut, perhaps the wilding assault upon the wall.
Is that better? I would think no.

I know the series is considered one big story, but I think that each book should ideally have its own resolution/climax where possible. SE did it with each of his, except for Dust of Dreams in the case of the Bonehunters storyline. So has Bakker so far. But it seems to me that ADWD, especially in the cases of Stannis and the Meereen storylines, seem to be chapters just strung together. Some of those chapters are indivudally brilliant. Reeks especially. Martin's pov innovation is fantastic. But that doesn't make a great book, just great individual bits of a book.
There is no resolution to whole storylines. Not the series ending storylines, just the interium middle-book storylines, like what you would see in The Bonehunters which was SE's middle book. It doesn't feel like a complete book.

:shrug: I think I have less of a need to see DANCE conform to the same structure that ACOK and ASOS did. That's not to say I'm overall 100% happy with the way DANCE turned out, but structurally and in the overall scope of the series, I agree with worrywort that I don't expect/want the later books to be just rehashes (structurally and thematically) of the first three. Nor do I want, or did I ever expect, Martin to follow any of SE's systems. Martin has always had a fairly generous view of cliffhangers. SE never has. Both have said this repeatedly in interviews and elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 25 August 2011 - 12:03 PM

[worry]

I would have loved it if it didn't end in cliffhangers. I just wouldn't trade anything that did happen in order to leave space for those climaxes to happen in this book, as some have suggested. I didn't think any of it was boring or -- to use my pet peeviest word of all -- "pointless". I understand the frustration of not wanting to wait years to get those climaxes, but for folks reading the series 50 years from now, none of that stuff will be an issue; the process takes however long it takes, till it's done. I'm not in any rush, and there's plenty of other stuff to do in the mean time.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 25 August 2011 - 09:31 PM