[Paran]

Really, you don't think the full on descriptions and names of all the turtles, the name of almost every wildling named through the wall or the countless minutae of descriptions could have been sweated down? Take this passage for example:

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In the granaries were oats and wheat and barley, and barrels of coarse ground flour. In the root cellars strings of onions and garlic dangled from the rafters, and bags of carrots, parsnips, radishes, and white and yellow turnips filled the shelves. One storeroom held wheels of cheese so large it took two men to move them. In the next, casks of salt beef, salt pork, salt mutton, and salt cod were stacked ten feet high. Three hundred hams and three thousand long black sausages hung from ceiling beams below the smokehouse. In the spice locker they found peppercorns, cloves, and cinnamon, mustard seeds, coriander, sage and clary sage and parsley, blocks of salt. Elsewhere were casks of apples and pears, dried peas, dried figs, bags of walnuts, bags of chestnuts, bags of almonds, planks of dry smoked salmon, clay jars packed with olives in oil and sealed with wax. One storeroom offered potted hare, haunch of deer in honey, pickled cabbage, pickled beets, pickled onions, pickled eggs, and pickled herring.

171 words! Apparently he forgot the honey, otherwise how the h3ll did that deer get honeyed (is that even word!?)?? Maybe there's a clue there! I know GRRM said this was a b!tch to write, but seriously, there were a lot of times this was a b!tch to read!

[Defiance]

Finally finished the book. To start, I enjoyed it. It was nowhere near the level of the first three, though. I was frustrated that there wasn't at least one big battle - hell, Martin at the potential to add in two, between Mereen and Winterfell (although I'm perfectly fine with there being no Winterfell battle, the whole "Bastard" letter was awesome).

I hope Jon isn't dead. Jon, Tyrion, Stannis, Jaime, and now Barristan are the only characters I like any more. Is Barristan awesome or what?

Daenerys...her entire part of the story frustrated me to no end. Given the last chapter, I realize that her part of the book is her progression toward understanding that she has to get her ass back to Westeros, but did an entire book really need to be devoted to this, especially considering it looks like we'll be spending a fair part of Winds in Mereen as well, just to resolve that battle and get them the hell out of there.

Jon's parts were good, but too repetitive. I agreed with all the decisions he made and didn't find him whiny in the slightest, however about halfway through it became, "how's he going to save wildlings this time?" I would have liked a conversation between him and Tormund, or even Mance, about the Others. Was not ready for his death, as I was waiting the entire book for Daenerys to get killed. Although, in hindsight, I should have been ready: I predicted Daenerys since she was surrounded by people who hated her and kept making bad decisions, but at least Daenerys had friends. Jon, despite making good decisions, had nobody to get his back. I'm with everyone who's waiting for him to come back from the dead in some way. It frees him from his oath, not to mention Marsh and the rest are all idiots. If they turn against the wildlings, both parties are going to come away barely alive. Sure, NW has the hundred captives, but I really don't think that's going to stop the Wildlings if they need to be stopped. Plus, if the Weeper decides to attack the Wall again...well, I just think that, without some good guidance, the Wall is going to fall to the Others and the finale against them will play out across Westeros.

Tyrion is great as always, although I do wish his part could have moved a bit quicker.

Bran's part was very interesting when we had him. Looking forward to him playing a much bigger role next book.

I really started liking Stannis in this book for some reason. Hope he's not dead, although we won't know until we (hopefully) get a battle for Winterfell in Winds.

Cersei...why aren't you dead yet? Frakengregor will be great though.

Wasn't surprised at what happened to Quentyn, given how much of a pushover he was.

Theon, oh man. I was never a fan of his character before, but this book really made me feel for him. Martin did an excellent job at portraying someone who's been put through such terrible torture. His last part, where he sees Asha again, was definitely the most moving part of the book for me. I won't hesitate to say it brought a tear to my eye.

"Beware the perfumed seneschal." I doubt I was the only one to think that this being Reznak was too cut-and-dry. I had a feeling throughout the entire book that the warning was concerning the ship Tyrion was sailing on (can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it basically meant perfumed seneschal, Tyrion ended up calling it the stinky something or other).

And Varys, oh man. His last scene was great. That said, I'm not at all sure that Aegon is really Aegon. I mean, if they really had the foresight to replace Aegon, why not replace Rhaenys as well? I don't think it would have been too difficult, given that we're talking about Varys here. Plus, raising two (three if we include Viserys) Targaryens at once and making plans for both of them, well, I just can't see how he intended that to work out. Sure, the dragon has three heads, but why then was Aegon trained so much while Viserys and Dany were left to beg? I won't go too much into this, as I'm sure there are already some very in-depth debates going on.

[Werthead]

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if they really had the foresight to replace Aegon, why not replace Rhaenys as well?

Rhaenys was about 7-8 at the time of her death, IIRC, and was very easy to recognise. Concealing her and replacing her with a double would be difficult, especially if the bodies were going to be seen by Tywin (whom, as Hand, would have spent years at court with Rhaenys running around until he quit just 1-2 years earlier). Aegon was only 1-2 years old, and appears to have been born at best immediately before Tywin quit as Hand, so was not as easily recognisable, even without his head being mashed to a pulp.

Essentially, Varys found it easier to extract Aegon and arrange a cover story, but couldn't find a way of doing the same for Rhaenys. And, more ruthlessly, Aegon was more important and Rhaenys' corpse being easily identifiable would help sell the idea that both children had been killed.

Quote

Plus, raising two (three if we include Viserys) Targaryens at once and making plans for both of them, well, I just can't see how he intended that to work out. Sure, the dragon has three heads, but why then was Aegon trained so much while Viserys and Dany were left to beg?

Aegon was the true heir; his claim would trump Viserys' as well as Dany's. It was also useful to have Viserys wandering around the Free Cities as a lightning rod for Robert's assassins, whilst Aegon's existence went completely unknown. To a certain extent, Viserys was expendable as long as Aegon remained alive (and recall that the 'marry Viserys to Arianne' plot was Doran's alone, not Varys' or Illyrio's). Daenerys was useful to sell in a marriage alliance, but once that was achieved she became expendable as well, especially if her murder by Robert's agents would enrage Drogo into invading Westeros (as nearly happened anyway).

[worry]

That makes me curious...do you folks want to see the Others spill through the wall into Westeros to slaughter uncountable numbers, or would you prefer they were held back somehow? In other words, do you want a human failure/I told you so deal or do you want a humans finally get it kind of thing? Those aren't necessarily the only two options, but broadly speaking.

[Ceda Cicero]

worrywort, on 08 September 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

That makes me curious...do you folks want to see the Others spill through the wall into Westeros to slaughter uncountable numbers, or would you prefer they were held back somehow? In other words, do you want a human failure/I told you so deal or do you want a humans finally get it kind of thing? Those aren't necessarily the only two options, but broadly speaking.

I often wonder about this too. I think, honestly, that either could happen and if it was well-executed I'd be fine. I think the former option is more likely, though.

After DANCE, I'm also kicking around the idea that the Others might not be as malevolent as we've been led to believe thus far. There's no question that they're nasty, don't get me wrong, we've seen plenty to know THAT. But we really know absolutely NOTHING about their origins and intentions. Combine that with the fact that their antithetical element is hardly represented in a wholly favorable light throughout the books. What if the "Fire" folks, R'hllor, Mel, Targs, the dragons are suddenly revealed as the long-time antagonists, or something like that?

I also think it's interesting that Jon is almost surely going to emerge as Azor Ahai and that GRRM has said before that Jon will become more of a "grey" character before the series ends. Azor Ahai, maybe not the light and fire wielding savior of humanity he seems?

[worry]

True, though legend (unreliable?) does suggest they are destroyers of humans. And the Children of the Forest opposed them. Possibly they are all "grey" characters, though the natural assumption from Fantasy 101 is that the Children were essentially "good." But yah, R'hllor doesn't seem all that great, and AA is a wife-killer at the very least.

The IMDB page for the show has the following thing in Trivia section: "Author George R.R. Martin was asked if he had a resolution or ending to the seemingly endless conflict. He replied that the end would be a cloud of dust or snow being driven by the wind across a vast graveyard full of tombstones."

Which would be more or less my ideal, but I have no idea where that quote came from originally or if it's real...no source.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Quick random question...did Selmy insinuate to Dany that her dad banged Tywin Lannister's wife? Which...if I'm not mistaken means there is a chance that Tyrion is Aerys's bastard? Did I read that totally wrong? Cuz I can't remember any previous allusions to that in the books...and it'd be pretty crazy if that was the case, though I guess it would give him the dragon blood he needs to be able to deal with Dany's dragons.

[worry]

I believe it's possible, though I'm not quite sure if all the timing lines up. But Tywin did quit as the Hand once before (which is def mentioned in previous books) and was key in overthrowing the king. Tyrion has very pale blonde hair, crazy messed up eyes, and his dad certainly hated him. Possibly because of his wife's death in child birth, but possibly for more than that as well. It's a possibility that has been subtly crafted in previous books....not sure I'd even say hinted at, though it occurred to me as possible/plausible during ASOS I think. And it would be a nice bookend to the whole Robert/Lannister hair thing...in that case the hair color was a tell, but in this other case it would blend right in.

[blackzoid]

No, I think they mentioned that it happened on Twyins wedding night and that Aerys wanted the custom of first night.

Tyrion has been mentioned by his aunt to be Twyins heir in spirit, more than Jamie is.
If anything its possible the twins would be the spawn of Aerys not Tyrion. It would sync up with the timeline better. And they have the whole incest thing going on.


/Mini Rant
On an somewhat unrelated note, is anyone else sick of the Targaryen connection/related prophecies/theroies of the books? Cos I am certainly sick of the whole is Jon a Targaryen, is Tyrion a Targaryen, is Aegon now a true Targaryen, whos going to ride the 3 dragons, who is AA and how does it relate to Dany/Jon etc etc etcfuckingetc. I really can't stand it. Is it just me?
End Rant/

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 16 September 2011 - 11:27 AM

[Ceda Cicero]

Maybe it's just how I read it, but I didn't get any hint at all there that Tyrion is anything other than Tywin's son. I read it as just another layer to the tension between Aerys and Tywin that led to the Lannister betrayal/sack of KL, and a thousand other things.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Yea that was my first reaction. Then I thought about how much was made of Quentyn and Brown Ben Plumm having Targ blood and thought maybe it would make sense for Tyrion. Especially during his flashback where he asked his uncle for a dragon because he was obsessed with them as a kid (possibly normal daydreams possibly a targ trait) and his dad seemed to unnaturally mad about it.

[worry]

Very early on, and throughout, Tyrion's hair is described as white-blonde while his siblings (and Lannisters in general) are described as golden-haired. This dates back to the first book. Since his parents are both Lannisters, his pale hair does seem like an oddity (not impossible of course, but weird). And while he doesn't have purple eyes, one is black, another oddity for the family. I'm not saying it's certain, I'm just saying the circumstantial evidence makes it quite plausible starting way before ADWD. The groundwork is there.

[Hoods Breath]

worrywort, on 17 September 2011 - 05:58 AM, said:

Very early on, and throughout, Tyrion's hair is described as white-blonde while his siblings (and Lannisters in general) are described as golden-haired. This dates back to the first book. Since his parents are both Lannisters, his pale hair does seem like an oddity (not impossible of course, but weird). And while he doesn't have purple eyes, one is black, another oddity for the family. I'm not saying it's certain, I'm just saying the circumstantial evidence makes it quite plausible starting way before ADWD. The groundwork is there.

I agree with worrywort. There have been numerous hints in the books. The only caveat is that Martin likes to create false trails to keep people guessing.

But I believe the red priest Moquorro even refers to Tyrion as a dragon. The text was a touch ambiguous but seemed clear enough to me.

I recall that Tywin tells him "You are not my son" which, in the context seems to be stated simply because he resents Tyrion's grotesque dwarf-ness, but perhaps it means more than that. Tywin is also pretty firm about never giving Tyrion Casterly Rock. Is this because he's a dwarf? Or because he's not really a Lannister.
Aerys "took liberties" during the bedding at Tywins wedding and lamented that first night was no longer a custom. But i think it was implied in the narrative that he may have gotten to Joanna at a later time, fracturing the relationship with Tywin for good, and giving Tywin the motivation to see to his downfall.

If Dany's dragons end up liking Tyrion, then it's pretty much case closed that he's the product of Aerys and Joanna

[acesn8s]

I'm a big fan of Tyrion not being Tywin's son.