[Fiddler Fisher]

Ever since SE introduced Tavore into the series as a main character, he has only given us nips and snippets of who she is, and why she did what she did. Back in the beginning, when she first became Adjunct, she was seen as ruthless and loyal to the Empire. Was she playing Lassen all along? (was everyone playing Lassen?) or was the Adjunct new to the cause when they landed on Lether.

In some parts, AT seems to be more knowing than even Quick Ben. Was it her brother? her allies? or does she have some hidden power of her own?

Everyone wonders who Quick Ben is but AT is way more unknown then he is.

One of the main things revealed about AT is her ability to acquire allies, even from among the gods. Did they know her purpose? or did they just know it was right?

I bet the answer to many of these questions will be "damn it Steve, why didn't you give us more?"

[worry]

I believe she's essentially the same kind of person throughout, though she does some natural maturing from teenager to woman. Very reserved, very focused, intelligent, austere, and does what she thinks is "right" throughout. I think she started off as an ambitious young lady, careerwise, and rose on her merit. I think she has a personal code of honor that may not be as rigid as Eddard Stark, for example, as it allows for flexibility in terms of deceit. But I don't think she prizes deception or betrayal -- in other words, the Felisin stuff fits her code of ethics, but "playing" Laseen just for the sake of herself would not.

I also think as she learns more and more about the big picture, she's able to prioritize in a way that's only self-serving in terms of her cause, not her well-being. And she is able to make the tough choices. All that said, I wouldn't say she believes the means justify the ends in every situation, and this one was extraordinary. In short, I'd define her with the terms integrity, determination, and compassion -- the last of which she hides in service of the first two, but never actually loses.

[Bonecaster]

This is from the interview at Pat's Fantasy Hotlist"

Quote

- Can you explain the source of Tavore's knowledge throughout the series?

- Olar Ethil is an intriguing character, but her motivations and goals remain a bit of a mystery. Could you elaborate on what her plans were in The Crippled God?

I group these two questions, as the answer for both will be the same. It's all about interpretation, and to that extent I'm no longer part of that conversation. My work is done, as frustrating as that might be. Interpret as you will. Just as you cannot know the mind of anyone else, not completely, not absolutely, so too these characters. Tavore will always be a mystery, closed in and hidden away. She is that world's Alexander (ie, what the hell was he up to in Northern India? What was he seeking? Did he drink himself to death in some twisted esoteric worship of eastern cults? Was the whole conquest born of guilt over his father's death – was he involved? – or just the fatal desire to out-conquer his old man? And so on). If we have all those answered for us, we'd not be satisfied anyway. So, what you ask cannot, will not, be answered. As for Olar Ethil, the same thing. She could be insane, or not. Her motives might have been moral, or not. Did she deserve her fate? For you to decide.

So "damn it Steve, why didn't you give us more?" is quite correct. Still, Ganoes tells us she was the greatest strategist of all. And she had an Eres giving her information. That's a couple of serious advantages. In the SW Episode 1-3 books, we see how seriously brilliant Palpatine was, orchestrating a huge number of players to get exactly what he wanted. Was Tavore the same? Was her main goal all along to free Kaminsod? Meaning her falling out with Laseen, though regretable, wasn't nearly as important? Did she sacrifice the nobles (though she tried to save her sister, as best she could) in order to gain various things that were needed to set things up for Kaminsod? Maybe she wasn't as free to do what she pleased as Palpatine was, so maybe she'd rather have done other things than stomp the Seven Cities rebellion. But she had to do it, and she used it to gain a lot of trust and respect, which was instrumental later on.

[LordofTheFallen]

This was one of the major themes about these books, especially in the later ones. This woman who we (or anyone else) know nothing about is able to take a bunch of unruly recruits and turn them into the best fighting force around.

That said, a lot of these questions are easily answered;

Where does she get her knowledge? First off she was extremely smart and second she was sleeping with an Eres'al, that had to give her a lot of exclusive info.

Where do her alligences lie? We can rule out any gods because the Eres'al probably wouldn't have stuck around if Tavore was worshipping a god. Aside from that, it was the bonehunters. Her parents are dead, her sister is a sex slave in the mines, her brother is missing in action, this army was the one thing left to her. When having to choose between laseen or the wickens (who her army was loyal to) she chose the wickens, and ultimately her army over laseen.

Why was she so detached? This woman is leading her army into a desert commanded by a "whirlwind goddess" who has the power to strip the flesh from her soldiers (yes I know her sword counters that...) then she is leading her army into the single most feared and hated city known to the malazans (Y'Ghatan) then she is meeting with the empress who she knows will make her choose between her loyalties, then it's on to Lether, then Kolanse. Imagine the shit that she has to put up with when she does this. Now remember what that army means to her. Each time she leads it into battle she looses more of the only people remotely close to her. And we wonder why she is so detached...

Why does she seem to be able to aquire allies? First, the Khundryl joined her due to Coltaine, not Tavore. Second, the Perish teamed up with her to partly kill the Letherii/Edur empire which was attacking their island, and some other reason to do with a proffecy. Third, the Letherii only joined because they veiwed them as liberators of a sort, despite the fact that it wasn't tavore by any measure who made the Edur leave (though she was responsible for 4 krisnan dying...) and Tehol was just a nice guy. Fourth, The everteen legion joined up after the khundryl nearly sacked Bolkandoand the perish were ready to sack it, it was kind of a compensation. The only aleagence i can't explain is the Eres'al, but hey, maybe tavore was just good in the sack...

[Fiddler Fisher]

some of your answers were nice, but for the most part, you didn't look deep enough for your answers. Steve is a devil for hiding our answers in multiple books. you seemed to look only in the Bonehunters. Tavore appears in many more books. She stops sleeping with the Eres'al long before she saves the crippled god. maybe that's where she got her idea to release him. As to her allegiance she becomes part of the House of Chains (leper i believe), so basically her allegiance is to that. as to family, Tavore takes the army's pain, but she is more of the mother of the army than anything else, as the Ribby Snake reveals to us (Fiddler is the father). As for info, yes she is smart, and a brilliant tactician but after looking into it, i found out that she never talked to her brother, but she was talking to someone (quick makes bottle's rat figure that out). As to her allies, yes the armies followed her for the reasons you mentioned... mostly. but the allies i was thinking about were closer to Kalam, Quick Ben, Ruthan Gudd, Mael, Hood, K'chain Che'malle.



P.S. and don't give me the crap that the human companions got them to do it (for Mael and the K'chain Che'malle)

[LordofTheFallen]

Well, yes, I took a lot out of the Bonehunters, but I also used the other books too. I'm not actually sure why she went after the crippled god, maybe it was to kill him (after all the crap he caused) but then when she found out he was being used she decided to free him. (though not once did she actually say she was going to free the CG. I think that was mostly the other guys.)

Also, I didn't say she talked to her brother, in fact the point I was stressing was that she had zero contact with her immediate family.

As to her alligence to the CG, she never chose the title of leper, it was simply placed on her. Much like Karsa is the knight yet he holds no alligence to the CG, in fact he often threatens to kill him. So I don't think tavore has any alligence to him, I think she was just given the title.

Moving on to her human allies.
Quick and Kalam probably joined with her because they were loyal to Ganoes. Though ever when they weren't around her they all had a similar cause, so it would make sense for them to join her.
I have no answer for Ruthan Gudd, maybe he was an ascendant who was sympathetic to Shadowthrones plans and was helping him, thats my best guess.
Mael held no alligences to Tavore, you saw how much they had to fight to get him to make that lake in the desert, he only made it because of Tehol. (I know you said don't say this, but this part was actually written down in the book.)
Hood also held no alligences to Tavore, or really anyone. He simply showed up to beat the snot out of the Forkrul Assail, that was about as much as he played concerning Tavore.
The K'Chain Che'Malle were loyal to Stormy and Gesler. They chose them as the MS and SA, and they happened to be part of tavore's army. Had they chosen anyone else (such as redmask) then they wouldn't be allied. However, the fact that both forces were fighting a common enemy might have made it work out even if Stormy and Gesler weren't there. Also the fact that Sinn and Grub saved their army may have made them honor bound to help the malazans (though the two forces never actually meet until the battle of the spar, so they might not have been allied at all, they simply decided not to fight each other.)

Sorry about the crap concerning the humans allying mael and the K'Chain Che'Malle, but that was literally the only reason they helped.

[Fiddler Fisher]

I'm sorry, i know this is kinda rude, but please check your facts. although i think you might be right about her reasoning (at least to start with)
1. I didn't mean to imply that you said she was talking to her brother.. that was my idea originally
2. Quick and Kalam were with AT at Malaz city and SE half explains why they joined but it was only a teaser
3. I don't think AT knew she was working for ST (she may have guessed it from lostra yil), and Gudd sure didn't know that.
4. Hood may have joined the final fight just to eat some FA face, but he was helping Felash and there by the cause
5. Mael helped without Tehol making him, giving the knife was Mael's idea because he knew AT was going to need water (he is a water god after all)
6. the K'Chain knew what they were getting into when they made human's there Des/MS/SA especially the shigal assassin for ges and stormy. It may have been the humans who got it to happen, but like (i believe quick or kalam) said 'Tavore just asks, while Ganoes only expects*'. Tavore was the one to ask all everyone/god/thing to help her, even if it wasn't in



*wording may be off a little

This post has been edited by Fiddler Fisher: 05 July 2011 - 12:09 AM

[LordofTheFallen]

Most of my facts still stand.
1. Nothing more needs to be said.
2. As you said, it was only half explained. I think for Kalam it was a simple good vs evil choice. Either serve the very people responsible for a continent-wide massacre or serve the army that quenched the resulting rebellion. As for Quick I'm not too sure but I think it was allong the same lines as Kalam's choice.
3. In a way everyone was indirectly working for Shadowthrone, and I think Tavore may have known he was behind everything, but it's just as likely that she didn't. As for Gudd, it was a guess, I really don't know why he's with them. Combine that with the rumors that he's an ascendant and it's a possibility. But it's only a guess.
4. Hood was more using Felash than helping her. He more or less sat on the ship occasionally pitching in when it suited his conveniance. And once he was close enough to the shore he ditched them all together.
5. As to why Mael helped was speculated by Brys, and had to do with Tehol possibly asking him. He probably got Mael to send the knife, which would cost him nothing if it was never used. But when it was used you could tell that Mael didn't want to follow through with it.
6. As I said before, Tavore never actually met with the K"Chain Che'Malle. I imagine the shigal assassin simply flew over the army and plucked up the two mortals who happened to be on the verge of ascendancy. Certainly Stormy and Gesler kept her in mind when leading them, but Tavore didn't have any contact with them until the battle. And even then I don't think she ever met with the Matron.

[Fiddler Fisher]

Tavore may have never met with most of her allies, but i wouldn't doubt that they were her ALLIES, not just tagging along for personal gain. only one had anything gained other than knowing that they helped save the world. The T'lan Imass made mortal again, and even then it was unexpected. I don't think the jaghut made mortal were happy about it. as hood mentions, he didn't know what to think of being mortal again, but it sure helps you die quicker. Tavore may not have actually met all of her allies in person, but she never actually asked 'will you help me?'. she never asked the letherii or the bolkando or the perish or the k'chain. the only people she asked to follow her were her soldiers. Tehol may have asked mael to do a lot of things, but that knife i believe was mael's own ploy, as even though tehol was probably one of the 5 smartest people alive (krupp, Quick, pust, ST) i doubt he knew that the malazans would need water and get mael to make a knife that would save their asses.

[Sanctume]

The Bolkano (sp? Bolkando?), at least the queen have Seguleh bodyguards--I don't think the Khundryl would have succeeded, further.

Didn't Tavore mentioned she researched info (or missing info) about Assail, which to me means she has the motive to do something about TCG early on.

[LordofTheFallen]

I think tehol knew the malazans would need water when they were discussing the whole 'crossing the glass desert" plan. If not then why would Mael send the knife? Especially when he was so hesitant to used it.
I'm not sure what the Imass and Jaghut made mortal has to do with this, but i think they were there because they knew what the Forkrul Assail were planning and capable of, and simply didn't want it to happen.
And I gave a whole list of reasons why each and every party chose to help her, even though she didn't ask any of them.

[Bonecaster]

Here's one of Tavore's greatest moments.

Quote

"Your transfer to under my command was in fact the only means of keeping you alive, Fist Blistig. The fourth time your life was saved was at Malaz City; had we failed in extricating ourselves you would have been arrested and executed. Now, you may choose to believe that I undertook such efforts because I value you as a commander, and be sure that to this day I remain impressed and admiring of your quick wit and decisiveness when refusing to yield Aren to the rebels. But that was not my primary reason for saving your life. Mallick Rel, High Fist Korbolo Dom and their interests would seek to revise the events at Aren - the outlawing and castigation of the Wickans was but the beginning.

"Fist Blistig, there are few who know the truth of those events. I saved your life to keep that truth alive."

[nacht]

You give too much credit to Tavore. (I personally like her immensely too)
This was a "world war" with the FA being the evil Nazis and the cause was more important than characters
So a lot of gods such as Hood and D'rek, civilizations (such as Perrish, Bolkanado) and people lined up on Tavore's side. Some joined because of open admiration for her (D'rek) and some joined because nobody liked a world ruled by FA (Hood)

[LordofTheFallen]

I think it was more allong the lines of this:

The Crippled God is causing a continent-wide clusterfuck with everyone and raising a lot of enemies (Letherii, Perish, Malazan)
So these groups decide to all kill the crap out of him if only to stop him dicking around in their worldly affairs.
Then they get close to him and find out that the CG is infact being used by an even bigger dick who isn't content with simply fucking around with civilization, but wants it dead. All of it.
And now the CG, who brought all these heavily armed and seriously pissed off people to their doorstep, doesn't seem so evil anymore.

[iRFNA]

I'm pretty sure tavore knew her interests aligned with ST/cot, since before the last battle at the end of the book

Quote

Reaching inside, she drew out a necklace - a simple leather string and an eagle's talon of brass or gold. Then she turned to the captain. 'Would you tie this for me, please?'
But Lostara simply stared at the talon.
...
The Adjunct sighed. 'I am a child of the Emperor - what more is there for you to understand, Lostara Yil?'

[LordofTheFallen]

We all knew that ST and Cotillion were behind most of this, but there isn't much proof of Tavore knowing the whole plan until the end. There is another thread called Tavore's Agenda which questions all her motives and how everything she did ended so perfectly. But for the record I don't think she was a mastermind in league with ST who was aware of the entire plan from beginning to end.

[Sapper JHall]

I think she was in communication with ST and Cotillion. She has the necklace with the talon at the end there and I thought that was to show us that she was part of Dancer's secret club of killer's. She also says that she was/is one of the emperor's children or something to that effect telling us that she has def been in league with them since the beginning probably...

[ragnar]

Just finished the series a few days ago and jumped back into GotM. One thing that jumped out at me is the descriptions of Tavore and Laseen by SE. They are virtually identical, minus the blue skin. Does Tavore idealize Laseen? Is there more to this. Why is the physical appearance so similar? I know the necklace represents Tavore's connection to the Talon and ST, but at first I had one of those no way moments. What if Tavore really was the love child of ST and Laseen. I know that's not the case, but it popped in my head.

[blackzoid]

Nah. Its the same way many of SE's marines are so similar. SE has this idea of a severe warrior woman and its applied to the two of them.
They are essentially the same character type. Unpopular assassin/woman leaders trying to run male-dominated hierarchies. Ya, thats a gross generalisation but its apt.

[worry]

Apt is not a generic warrior woman. He's totally unique!