[Aptorian]

I've been thinking about this since somebody wanted to do a "Best Assassin" thread.

I mean, in terms of sheer size and strength the thing is perhaps as much as 6 meters tall (based on it being twice the height of a Kell Hunter), faster than a Kell Hunter and as strong/stronger than a Ve'gath (I'm guessing). It has venomous claws. Super vision. Super smell. God knows what kinds of magical senses. It can fly. It can camouflage itself. It can excreet sleep inducing chemicals. Seems to be able to mutate to adapt to its environment/needs going by the wing growth. What the hell can't it do?

Is a who'd win contest even fair considering its size? I mean, at full stretch, it's maybe twice the height of Karsa. Fucking thing is HUGE. Versus a humanoid I would imagine it would squash a human like a gnat. I am sure that the big players of the Malazan World could manage to fuck it up, a la Ryllandaras, but still, it sounds formidable.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The only problem is that apart from the sleep inducing chemicals,it would be rather easy to avoid him. I mean,you'd have to be rather stupid to not notice a giant flying lizard. And that's bad for an assassin.

[Aptorian]

Well, the thing moves with out making a sound (discernible by human ear anyway). It can probably go invisible against a back drop. The human warriors out on patrol, or were those barghast, never noticed it even though they moved close to it and it wasn't even hiding. Human beings are not used to looking up for danger. If it maintains an altitude of a several thousand feet you'll never even know it is there before it lands on you like a thousand pounds of angry lizard. Just imagine how fast it runs.

[Abyss]

Awesomely formidable, no doubt. That said, Gu'rull did all kinds of nasty things but he had the most success when he had surprise on his side.

But Mappo and Gruntle gave Gu'rull a fight and the Bole brother actually hurt him, so Shi'gal are far from unstoppable.

It wasn't entirely clear, but it seemed that the Nah'ruk skykeeps knocked Gu'rull for a loop in DoD, suggesting that given some time to prep and sufficient power to work with, the primary advantage of any assassin, that being 'surprise', can be countered. When he outright attacked the TTG wagon, he did all kinds of damage but they did manage to fight him off.

[Shansteeth]

Abyss, on 24 June 2011 - 04:39 PM, said:

Awesomely formidable, no doubt. That said, Gu'rull did all kinds of nasty things but he had the most success when he had surprise on his side.

But Mappo and Gruntle gave Gu'rull a fight and the Bole brother actually hurt him, so Shi'gal are far from unstoppable.

It wasn't entirely clear, but it seemed that the Nah'ruk skykeeps knocked Gu'rull for a loop in DoD, suggesting that given some time to prep and sufficient power to work with, the primary advantage of any assassin, that being 'surprise', can be countered. When he outright attacked the TTG wagon, he did all kinds of damage but they did manage to fight him off.

I am not sure any being in the Malazan world is unstoppable. As unstoppable as say Draconus seems, he was stopped at least once. Anomander may have offed, fairly easily, a couple of hounds of shadows, but neither ST or the Hounds tend to throw themselves into an absolute unwinnable fight, so while he may have won that skirimish, i find it plausible that the hounds and ST thought they would at least have a chance to win.


Icarium seems unstoppable when he is angry, and I suppose of all of them if you were just pitting an enranged Icarium vs. whoever in a vaccum he would be the closest.



What makes me put the SA near the top of the list and on par with some of the most powerful beings is his level of comfort around the reincarnated Hood.



Perhaps the single binding connection between the truly powerful beings is self-awareness. Beings like the Liosan are clearly powerful, but they are not self-aware. They have this belief they are the ultimate power, and are unstoppable. Confidence in your abilities are nice, but there is a difference in the Liosan arrogance(or the FA arrogance) and self awareness of the truly powerful like Rake, Hood, Draconus and yes, the SA.(I could see the Liosaon, while being killed, thinking to themselves "how is this happening, what is going on, this is impossible!!!, while I see the 4 I mentioned, if ever put in a position where they were fighting and dieing, having understood that their death was a true possibility a gainst the one killing them)



edit: recall throughout the series all the stuff the Bole brothers have done, and imo they are the most under-rated "power" in the world. Consider who they've been able to lockdown, injure, kill etc. and you may consider them, as I do, as amongst the most powerful beings in this universe.

This post has been edited by Shansteeth: 24 June 2011 - 06:52 PM

[Aptorian]

The Shigals ease within the presence of Hood is not due to its own understanding of its strength or skill IMO. Rather it is simply its animal nature. It does not think like a human. Hood is not its enemy and it does not sense any threat from the Jaghut, so it doesn't show fear. Fear would be a sign of weakness. Also, traditionally, the Jaghut and KCCM have been allies in the past.

About the Boles. They are just strong and durable. Not anywhere near the top tiers. Nothing special when you take away the element of surprise of a dumb grunt suddenly revealing himself to be able to punch like a steam engine. I would put them on the level of an avowed or Mortal Sword. Probably a bit more durable since they are designed to take punishment. They are still flesh and blood. The Jaghut made them. They can unmake them again. Any skilled sorcerer aware of what he is facing could wipe them out. A sword will kill them. So will a broken neck.

[Abyss]

I suspect the point with the Sigal, as with many other serious powerhouses in the MBF, is that it is vastly superior to any single or even group of foes, but it's far from unstoppable and given some prep time and resources, even a group of relatively 'normal' humans, in the sense that a group of Malazan infantry would be normal, could have a decent shot at taking one down.

Pennyapt, on 24 June 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

...About the Boles. They are just strong and durable. ... Any skilled sorcerer aware of what he is facing could wipe them out. A sword will kill them. So will a broken neck.

I think you're wrong on the magic angle - they are especially resistant to sorcery, and a mage thinking he was going to take them out would probably be in for a nasty surprise. see MoI, among other things.

Similarly, in TtH the Boles showed absolutely no hesitation or difficulty in grabbing a Jaghut.

[Aptorian]

Again, I think the Boles main advantage is that they appear "mortal". You don't expect them to punch you like a crossbow bolt. You don't expect them to take a blow that would daze a Hound of Shadow and you certainly don't expect them to keep coming at you when you just threw enough magic at them to kill a column of soldiers.

They are like small Teblors. Fierce and damn hard to kill. That doesn't mean that a smart squad mage like Ebron wont still be able to fuck them up. Yes, they will shrug off magic attacks just like Karsa can, but that just means you have to get creative. Say you're a fire mage. You can't set them on fire. Fine. I'll use up all the air surrounding them. Or super heat it burning their skin and lungs. Try and kill me when your lungs are on fire. If that doesn't work, I'll set the surroundings on fire. Or melt the ground. Or use focused power blasts to throw dirt and stone at them with enough force to rip and tear. Or I will levitate something and throw it at them until it kills them or buries them. I'm sure there's lots of other dirty tricks a combat mage could come up with.

If we're talking about an actual Jaghut or similar super strong magic user, I reckon they will simply say fuck you and open up with enough magic to either kill the Bole magic resistance or not or make the surrounding country side for a hundred miles around a sad place to live for the next millennia. Anyway it goes they win or live to dominate another day.

EDIT: Unless of course there are Boles out there that are aware of what they are and are able to manipulate their ability the same way that Tool uses his T'lan warren in GOTM. Now that would be interesting.

Come to think of it. Where do the Boles come from? We know that the Jaghut made them. But there must be more of their kind than just the Bole family right? Hmmm.

This post has been edited by Pennyapt: 24 June 2011 - 07:56 PM

[Kanese S's]

The Shigal assassin could certainly be more than a match for many other characters, but I think there are even some human ones that would give it quite a difficult time. It wasn't completely unstoppable. I think Apsalar, if doing a shadow dance, could probably fight it off. Cotillion I think wouldn't fall prey to it.

Also, Karsa, just because he's too stubborn to lose to some ancient horror.

[D'rek]

Like a lot of Malazan entities, the Shigal is great on the offensive but probably doesn't have a lot of innate defense. What I mean is, it is very stealthy, great at ambushing you, has sword-length talons, super-oils to incapacitate its victim and can punch/slash/kick harder than a cusser. But Corabb could probably kill it by firing a crossbow bolt through its eye into its brain. So the assassin part certainly comes into play in a 1 on 1 situation - the Shigal will hit first before its opponent knows its even there and probably win against almost anything. Against a group it loses a lot of this advantage as it can only take down so many so fast before the others are aware and striking back, and that's when you get cussers/high magic/a mortal sword of war/bole brothers/etc flying back at it and it could be killed.

OTOH, the Shigal seems to have a lot of endurance and was healthy again shortly after it got wounded by the bole brothers, so against a group it could likely win in most match-ups by ambushing the group repeatedly and running off each time before they can hit back.

Pennyapt, on 24 June 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

Again, I think the Boles main advantage is that they appear "mortal". You don't expect them to punch you like a crossbow bolt. You don't expect them to take a blow that would daze a Hound of Shadow and you certainly don't expect them to keep coming at you when you just threw enough magic at them to kill a column of soldiers.

They are like small Teblors. Fierce and damn hard to kill. That doesn't mean that a smart squad mage like Ebron wont still be able to fuck them up. Yes, they will shrug off magic attacks just like Karsa can, but that just means you have to get creative. Say you're a fire mage. You can't set them on fire. Fine. I'll use up all the air surrounding them. Or super heat it burning their skin and lungs. Try and kill me when your lungs are on fire. If that doesn't work, I'll set the surroundings on fire. Or melt the ground. Or use focused power blasts to throw dirt and stone at them with enough force to rip and tear. Or I will levitate something and throw it at them until it kills them or buries them. I'm sure there's lots of other dirty tricks a combat mage could come up with.

If we're talking about an actual Jaghut or similar super strong magic user, I reckon they will simply say fuck you and open up with enough magic to either kill the Bole magic resistance or not or make the surrounding country side for a hundred miles around a sad place to live for the next millennia. Anyway it goes they win or live to dominate another day.

EDIT: Unless of course there are Boles out there that are aware of what they are and are able to manipulate their ability the same way that Tool uses his T'lan warren in GOTM. Now that would be interesting.

Come to think of it. Where do the Boles come from? We know that the Jaghut made them. But there must be more of their kind than just the Bole family right? Hmmm.

I reckon there are non-Boles in Mott wood, but the (very large, extended) Bole family are the only ones who are Jhag construct thingies. Sweetest Sufferance, for example, doesn't seem to have been a Bole, just a swamp witch from Mott. The Mott irregulars probably consist of all sorts from Mott wood (and the town/city of Mott?), but having seen what they can do it makes sense all the Boles in the Irregulars that we've heard of were High Marshalls.

[Kanese S's]

I thought Precious Thimble was the swamp witch.

[Ulrik]

Pennyapt, on 24 June 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

Again, I think the Boles main advantage is that they appear "mortal". You don't expect them to punch you like a crossbow bolt. You don't expect them to take a blow that would daze a Hound of Shadow and you certainly don't expect them to keep coming at you when you just threw enough magic at them to kill a column of soldiers.

They are like small Teblors. Fierce and damn hard to kill. That doesn't mean that a smart squad mage like Ebron wont still be able to fuck them up. Yes, they will shrug off magic attacks just like Karsa can, but that just means you have to get creative. Say you're a fire mage. You can't set them on fire. Fine. I'll use up all the air surrounding them. Or super heat it burning their skin and lungs. Try and kill me when your lungs are on fire. If that doesn't work, I'll set the surroundings on fire. Or melt the ground. Or use focused power blasts to throw dirt and stone at them with enough force to rip and tear. Or I will levitate something and throw it at them until it kills them or buries them. I'm sure there's lots of other dirty tricks a combat mage could come up with.

If we're talking about an actual Jaghut or similar super strong magic user, I reckon they will simply say fuck you and open up with enough magic to either kill the Bole magic resistance or not or make the surrounding country side for a hundred miles around a sad place to live for the next millennia. Anyway it goes they win or live to dominate another day.

EDIT: Unless of course there are Boles out there that are aware of what they are and are able to manipulate their ability the same way that Tool uses his T'lan warren in GOTM. Now that would be interesting.

Come to think of it. Where do the Boles come from? We know that the Jaghut made them. But there must be more of their kind than just the Bole family right? Hmmm.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Boles..."tamed" Yaghut woman (and didnt tear her apart only because of rest), killed necromancers (because they simply dont like them), forced our beloved ubermotherfuckers Korbal and Bauchelain to retreat, gave more serious wound to Shigal than Mapos centuries old warrened mace and have Wolverine bones (which is kinda ubercool:)).


Oh yeah, they can be killed...but anyone can be killed. Boles are one of SE´s best jokes, breed of super hunters with rather special social behaviour:) And they would eat Ebron alive...especially Ebron who is too stupid to duck n cover...poor sod, I liked him.

[Luzburg]

A squad mage would get destroyed by a Bole with ease. Come on be realistic.

[Aptorian]

Luzburg, on 25 June 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

A squad mage would get destroyed by a Bole with ease. Come on be realistic.

Why?

[MTS]

I'm thinking because squad mages cannot in a general sense throw around the kind of firepower you are advocating upthread.

[Ulrik]

Yup, there are only two kinds of squad mages I bet against Boles:
- Quick Ben
- the one with cusser

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ulrik, on 25 June 2011 - 05:57 AM, said:

[

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Boles..."tamed" Yaghut woman (and didnt tear her apart only because of rest), killed necromancers (because they simply dont like them), forced our beloved ubermotherfuckers Korbal and Bauchelain to retreat, gave more serious wound to Shigal than Mapos centuries old warrened mace and have Wolverine bones (which is kinda ubercool:)).


Oh yeah, they can be killed...but anyone can be killed. Boles are one of SE´s best jokes, breed of super hunters with rather special social behaviour:) And they would eat Ebron alive...especially Ebron who is too stupid to duck n cover...poor sod, I liked him.

First of all, I believe it was implied that the Jaghuts in that town were a watered version of a true jaghut. Do you really believe the Bole brothers would survive someone like raest?Really?

Second,true, Amby hit the Shi'gal harder than anyone else, yet it took just one slash of his talons to fatally wound Jula,while Gruntle easily survived being thrown from a great height. As such,I believe that being able to get hit harder trumps being able to hit harder.

So,in the end I agree with Apt,if you know they are actually crazy Jaghut creation and not just dumb woodsmen,avoid sorcery and stay away from their fists you should be able to manage them. A crossbow bolt or a spear should do the trick.

[Gust Hubb]

I would like to see Gesler sucker punch a Bole.

And I've been thinking, and Apt brought it up so aptly, why are magic practitioners so limited by their skills. I mean, why don't we see more physical attacks (like thrown up dirt) that are backed by magic? Has SE or any other author toyed with the alternative indirect uses of magic? If this too tangential, please, let me know an I will start it (or find someone's original thread along these lines).

I am not sure we got to see the SA's full potential though. I mean, it was designed to be super incredible and we mostly saw it being buffeted about by various surprising entities. And what are we using as a means of rating dangerousness? Is it all out awesomeness of power like holds versus warrens, or is it more who has more brains times power?

[Ulrik]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 26 June 2011 - 08:56 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 25 June 2011 - 05:57 AM, said:

[

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Boles..."tamed" Yaghut woman (and didnt tear her apart only because of rest), killed necromancers (because they simply dont like them), forced our beloved ubermotherfuckers Korbal and Bauchelain to retreat, gave more serious wound to Shigal than Mapos centuries old warrened mace and have Wolverine bones (which is kinda ubercool:)).


Oh yeah, they can be killed...but anyone can be killed. Boles are one of SE´s best jokes, breed of super hunters with rather special social behaviour:) And they would eat Ebron alive...especially Ebron who is too stupid to duck n cover...poor sod, I liked him.

First of all, I believe it was implied that the Jaghuts in that town were a watered version of a true jaghut. Do you really believe the Bole brothers would survive someone like raest?Really?

Second,true, Amby hit the Shi'gal harder than anyone else, yet it took just one slash of his talons to fatally wound Jula,while Gruntle easily survived being thrown from a great height. As such,I believe that being able to get hit harder trumps being able to hit harder.

So,in the end I agree with Apt,if you know they are actually crazy Jaghut creation and not just dumb woodsmen,avoid sorcery and stay away from their fists you should be able to manage them. A crossbow bolt or a spear should do the trick.

Raest? Argument with Raest in case of Jaghut is like use Mok in case of Seguleh. Or Silchas for Andii. Next one please.


Well, the one who really forced GuRull to withdraw was Bole. They forced him run in panic. End of fact.
One slash of talons was four scimitar long adamant claws impaling one Bole.


Gruntle iirc didnt easily survived falling from great heigh, Mappo just says Trake intervened and even so was Gruntle all bruised.

And I never said they are invincible killmachines or equal of Mortal Sword of desperate god, I leave it to fanboys... They just are very strong, very funny and great part of Malazan world.

So, yeah, spear should do the trick...tell it to silchas...or Clip...or Jaghuts...spear always do the trick...So pls, read what I write and argument with it, not something I didnt said. Like making Ebron into Raest... I understand - thats how big heroic songs begin, but... I dont like the trick

EDIT: Thanks! My it gave me another impulse to reread TCG! It is time!

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 26 June 2011 - 09:10 PM

[Macros]

I think its foolih to try and rate any super power in MBoTF as being safe from any other character.

If I recall correctly didn't one Masan giliani do some serious damage to dejim nebral (terrible attempt at spelling) before he scarpered?
Power and ability seem to mean jack shit in the Malazan Universe