[Maark Abbott]

Haven't been able to get a reliable mirror for PrinPrin6 yet which sucks. In the meantime, I've had a looksee at Knight has & Magic (that FUCKING apostrophe) and it was pretty good. Yeah, it's Isekai, but the protagonist isn't made into a bland everyman and at least in episode one he's got a relatively balanced cast around him (so hopefully no harem). He just wants to play with massive goddamn robots. It was a promising start.

[LinearPhilosopher]

So somethings been bugging me about Jojo

One of the villains in the sub, is clearly beign reffered to as oingo and boingo. In the subtitle it says Mondatta and zenyatta which sounds NOTHING like that. Does some research.

Turns out there was a bit of a copyright issue with the band called oingo boingo.(despite the fact everything in Jojo is a reference to popular culture)

The more you know.

[Maark Abbott]

LinearPhilosopher, on 15 August 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

So somethings been bugging me about Jojo

One of the villains in the sub, is clearly beign reffered to as oingo and boingo. In the subtitle it says Mondatta and zenyatta which sounds NOTHING like that. Does some research.

Turns out there was a bit of a copyright issue with the band called oingo boingo.(despite the fact everything in Jojo is a reference to popular culture)

The more you know.

Incidentally this sort of crops up in Overwatch with Zenyatta the monk and his brother Mondatta.

New Game this week was unexpectedly dramatic towards the end. Really want to see what happens next.

[Maark Abbott]

Still can't find a good mirror for PrinPrin 6, Drek-sama help pls ;_;




Bit of a roundup:

HNG - The main character is actually developing into a decent person which is a nice change to this genre. Purposefully took a hit to not protect his lady, but her friends. This show keeps developing nicely.

TDC - Oh goodness, that texting scene was absolutely hilarious. Very good episode this week, made up for the slow start of the series.

Aho-Girl - Surprisingly slow this week and a bit short on funny moments. I guess it was never going to maintain that pace all the way through.

Sakura Quest - the episode started with some feels and then buoyed itself up with some positivity. There's a very good chance this show will wind up as my pick of the year, it's been brilliant throughout and hasn't lulled once.

INS - It was always going to be very much a harem series, but it's fun nonetheless. At least the MC isn't an overly lecherous perv.

[Maark Abbott]

Found a mirror and holy shit that ending was DARK. Predictable but dark. And the end credits being black silence...

[LinearPhilosopher]

Maark Abbott, on 16 August 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 15 August 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

So somethings been bugging me about Jojo

One of the villains in the sub, is clearly beign reffered to as oingo and boingo. In the subtitle it says Mondatta and zenyatta which sounds NOTHING like that. Does some research.

Turns out there was a bit of a copyright issue with the band called oingo boingo.(despite the fact everything in Jojo is a reference to popular culture)

The more you know.

Incidentally this sort of crops up in Overwatch with Zenyatta the monk and his brother Mondatta.

New Game this week was unexpectedly dramatic towards the end. Really want to see what happens next.

Vanilla Ice is subbed as Cool Ice

Also the video game Stand battle is likely one of the better fights to date. Only one more stand user left and we finally get to meet DIO and get to witness the power of ZAAA WORLDOOOOOOO!

one of my cosplay buddies keeps commenting on the fact despite Dio is English born and raised, he has this unexplained japanese accent when speaking english

Also once done with Jojo my next show is initial D. With all the memes going around i gotta do it.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 17 August 2017 - 11:21 PM

[D'rek]

Maark Abbott, on 17 August 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

Still can't find a good mirror for PrinPrin 6, Drek-sama help pls ;_;

[...]

Found a mirror and holy shit that ending was DARK. Predictable but dark. And the end credits being black silence...

Sorry! I'm travelling(ish) and not able to check in as much!

I like how the last couple episodes have become Best Dad Contest 2017. That finale of episode 6 was indeed dark, but also wonderfully produced with the juxtaposition of church scene and the song and how it leaves certain things hanging. Chilling.

Maark Abbott, on 17 August 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

Sakura Quest - the episode started with some feels and then buoyed itself up with some positivity. There's a very good chance this show will wind up as my pick of the year, it's been brilliant throughout and hasn't lulled once.

This latest episode (20) was really strong. Not only the audition at the start, but the passion in the play and the reactions from all the graduates, and then santa's gift at the end. All solid stuff, and I dare say I got a bit sucked in and emotional myself.

[Maark Abbott]

Sometimes picking something up because the artwork looks good is a bad idea. Sometimes it's a good thing. Sakura Quest is very much the latter.

Four episodes left. I'll be sad when this one finishes. Am I right in understanding it to be an original production and not an adaptation?

[D'rek]

Maark Abbott, on 18 August 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

Sometimes picking something up because the artwork looks good is a bad idea. Sometimes it's a good thing. Sakura Quest is very much the latter.

Four episodes left. I'll be sad when this one finishes. Am I right in understanding it to be an original production and not an adaptation?

Yup, it's original.

[Maark Abbott]

Picked up School-Live on the back of a NEO review.

Spoiler

I have to say, this shit is dark, like... Bakker dark. There's so much psychological horror / disconnect going on with the main character.

Four episodes in and it's definitely a winner.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 21 August 2017 - 01:52 PM

[Silencer]

Watched the first episode of Kuzu no Honkai/Scum's Wish.
My biggest take away from the episode has very little to do with the show, though. Namely, it's that the subtitles really drive home my belief that honorifics are best left untranslated. By all means, keep using the word 'brother' there. First of all it makes the dialogue stilted (needs some sort of possessive to make the sentence work, like 'my'), and second of all it makes the relationship seem... Er... Weirder. Just because the word 'onii-chan' primarily translates to brother doesn't make that work in the English translation. Because it's specifically used in this context as an older male friend to whom one is very close/looks up to like they would a sibling. But that is almost totally lost in translation. XD hell, 'onii-san' can be used to very politely replace "young man" or similar if used by an older person to refer to someone they don't know the name of. What would they translate it to in that context?

[D'rek]

Maark Abbott, on 21 August 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Picked up School-Live on the back of a NEO review.

Spoiler

I have to say, this shit is dark, like... Bakker dark. There's so much psychological horror / disconnect going on with the main character.

Four episodes in and it's definitely a winner.

Yes! Finally someone watches it after I raved about it like 2 years ago. It's so good!

Silencer, on 21 August 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Watched the first episode of Kuzu no Honkai/Scum's Wish.
My biggest take away from the episode has very little to do with the show, though. Namely, it's that the subtitles really drive home my belief that honorifics are best left untranslated. By all means, keep using the word 'brother' there. First of all it makes the dialogue stilted (needs some sort of possessive to make the sentence work, like 'my'), and second of all it makes the relationship seem... Er... Weirder. Just because the word 'onii-chan' primarily translates to brother doesn't make that work in the English translation. Because it's specifically used in this context as an older male friend to whom one is very close/looks up to like they would a sibling. But that is almost totally lost in translation. XD hell, 'onii-san' can be used to very politely replace "young man" or similar if used by an older person to refer to someone they don't know the name of. What would they translate it to in that context?

I think it just comes down to bad/dumb translation. So many subtitlers just opt for the most literal of translations instead of smarter options. Gurren Lagann used "bro" for its onii-san replacement, and it worked just fine, and I'd rather that than the jarring-ness of inserting "onii-san" into the middle of an Engish sentence. The context isn't quite the same in Scum's Wish so maybe not "bro" for it, but I'm sure there's another good choice they could have used instead of the literal "brother".

[Silencer]

D, on 21 August 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 21 August 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Picked up School-Live on the back of a NEO review.

Spoiler

I have to say, this shit is dark, like... Bakker dark. There's so much psychological horror / disconnect going on with the main character.

Four episodes in and it's definitely a winner.

Yes! Finally someone watches it after I raved about it like 2 years ago. It's so good!

Silencer, on 21 August 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Watched the first episode of Kuzu no Honkai/Scum's Wish.
My biggest take away from the episode has very little to do with the show, though. Namely, it's that the subtitles really drive home my belief that honorifics are best left untranslated. By all means, keep using the word 'brother' there. First of all it makes the dialogue stilted (needs some sort of possessive to make the sentence work, like 'my'), and second of all it makes the relationship seem... Er... Weirder. Just because the word 'onii-chan' primarily translates to brother doesn't make that work in the English translation. Because it's specifically used in this context as an older male friend to whom one is very close/looks up to like they would a sibling. But that is almost totally lost in translation. XD hell, 'onii-san' can be used to very politely replace "young man" or similar if used by an older person to refer to someone they don't know the name of. What would they translate it to in that context?

I think it just comes down to bad/dumb translation. So many subtitlers just opt for the most literal of translations instead of smarter options. Gurren Lagann used "bro" for its onii-san replacement, and it worked just fine, and I'd rather that than the jarring-ness of inserting "onii-san" into the middle of an Engish sentence. The context isn't quite the same in Scum's Wish so maybe not "bro" for it, but I'm sure there's another good choice they could have used instead of the literal "brother".

It's funny, I'm the complete opposite RE: jarring. I find the total frustration at using, say, someone's first name when I'm clearly hearing last name-san in the dialogue, way more off-putting than reading an honorific in the subtitles. I mean, it's not just sibling terminology with its multifaceted layers of meaning - I find translations of sempai and kouhai to be quite frustrating as well, as literally referring to someone as "senior" makes almost zero sense in an English sentence, but I'm used to the word and its implied meanings well enough that I'd rather just read the word itself. I fully admit I could be in the minority here (though I have seen a few places where the comments sections have echoed my sentiments - enough to get the subs changed, in some instances! XD) but it just seems to me like there are too many layers to the words for a direct English translation outside of their literal usage (sometimes, for example, I'm OK with "bro" being used, other times it REALLY doesn't fit the relationship being expressed, especially as onii-san is the more formal version of the word, maybe bro for onii-chan or similar?) and then, as I said, you have words like sempai where it varies despite the word being used consistently - in a work place, you might very well use "sir" or something to indicate the respect of the term, but in high school literally no-one calls an older student "sir", and I've only ever heard "senior" used to refer to a group of students, never an individual. It just doesn't map in English because we're very name-heavy.

But yes, a lot of it is exacerbated by bad translations, where the problem would be more on a technical, Silencer-is-being-pedantic level if they just used a decent substitute instead of an idiotic one. XD

And I guess I now have to try out School-Live? I honestly don't remember you reco'ing it, D'rek, so my bad on that one.

[Maark Abbott]

Feel free to rave about most anything if I'm about, your recommendations usually fit with things I'll enjoy and as our resident anime queen it behoves me to listen.

As to KNH, I'm pretty sure the term is used in the English translation of the manga as well. Not sure how they'd get around that to be honest, because in context, 'brother' was 'one who is close enough to be my brother but isn't biologically related to me'. Kind of a mouthful.

[D'rek]

Silencer, on 22 August 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

D, on 21 August 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 21 August 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Picked up School-Live on the back of a NEO review.

Spoiler

I have to say, this shit is dark, like... Bakker dark. There's so much psychological horror / disconnect going on with the main character.

Four episodes in and it's definitely a winner.

Yes! Finally someone watches it after I raved about it like 2 years ago. It's so good!

Silencer, on 21 August 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Watched the first episode of Kuzu no Honkai/Scum's Wish.
My biggest take away from the episode has very little to do with the show, though. Namely, it's that the subtitles really drive home my belief that honorifics are best left untranslated. By all means, keep using the word 'brother' there. First of all it makes the dialogue stilted (needs some sort of possessive to make the sentence work, like 'my'), and second of all it makes the relationship seem... Er... Weirder. Just because the word 'onii-chan' primarily translates to brother doesn't make that work in the English translation. Because it's specifically used in this context as an older male friend to whom one is very close/looks up to like they would a sibling. But that is almost totally lost in translation. XD hell, 'onii-san' can be used to very politely replace "young man" or similar if used by an older person to refer to someone they don't know the name of. What would they translate it to in that context?

I think it just comes down to bad/dumb translation. So many subtitlers just opt for the most literal of translations instead of smarter options. Gurren Lagann used "bro" for its onii-san replacement, and it worked just fine, and I'd rather that than the jarring-ness of inserting "onii-san" into the middle of an Engish sentence. The context isn't quite the same in Scum's Wish so maybe not "bro" for it, but I'm sure there's another good choice they could have used instead of the literal "brother".

It's funny, I'm the complete opposite RE: jarring. I find the total frustration at using, say, someone's first name when I'm clearly hearing last name-san in the dialogue, way more off-putting than reading an honorific in the subtitles. I mean, it's not just sibling terminology with its multifaceted layers of meaning - I find translations of sempai and kouhai to be quite frustrating as well, as literally referring to someone as "senior" makes almost zero sense in an English sentence, but I'm used to the word and its implied meanings well enough that I'd rather just read the word itself. I fully admit I could be in the minority here (though I have seen a few places where the comments sections have echoed my sentiments - enough to get the subs changed, in some instances! XD) but it just seems to me like there are too many layers to the words for a direct English translation outside of their literal usage (sometimes, for example, I'm OK with "bro" being used, other times it REALLY doesn't fit the relationship being expressed, especially as onii-san is the more formal version of the word, maybe bro for onii-chan or similar?) and then, as I said, you have words like sempai where it varies despite the word being used consistently - in a work place, you might very well use "sir" or something to indicate the respect of the term, but in high school literally no-one calls an older student "sir", and I've only ever heard "senior" used to refer to a group of students, never an individual. It just doesn't map in English because we're very name-heavy.

But yes, a lot of it is exacerbated by bad translations, where the problem would be more on a technical, Silencer-is-being-pedantic level if they just used a decent substitute instead of an idiotic one. XD

Hmmm, I guess I both agree and disagree.

I'm not quite sure how to say this, but I feel like I don't mind if there's a separation of "dialogue translation" and "culture translation". Sure, a junior high school student calling a third-year "senior" isn't a phrase you would naturally hear in any English-speaking country so in that sense it feels like an awkward phrasing. But if Australia *did* have a school culture similar to Japan, then that phrasing wouldn't be awkward for Australians at all, right?

So using the word "senior" in a translated show doesn't really affect the cultural context for me. I still in my head see the same interactions and context, just with alternate terms that mean exactly the same (even if the way those words are used in *my* country aren't exactly the same as how they are used in the show).

It's wonkier when the words used have much more specific meanings in English. Like, no one uses "senior" when addressing people at all in English, really, so it's easy to give it an "in-Japan meaning" for that situation, but something like brother or sister is much more specific in English usage, hence translators should pick terms that are more fluid when they need them for things like this.


Name honorifics are a bit of a grey area. Do they count as being part of the language, and therefore should be translated? Or are they part of the culture, and should be maintained? I don't really have much of an opinion (but usually when they're translated via titles like Mr it's done pretty poorly).

A lot of translators do seem to want to "westernize" their shows, such as with switching the dialogue to using first names when the original used surnames. That's beyond my preferences.

On the flip side, there are translators (especially some fansubs) that are a lot like you Silencer, and won't replace any word that has even the slightest perceived difference from it's English equivalent. Some of them go pretty overboard with it...

Silencer, on 22 August 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

And I guess I now have to try out School-Live? I honestly don't remember you reco'ing it, D'rek, so my bad on that one.

I mentioned it very briefly when you returned recently, but my big gushing over it was a couple years ago when you weren't active here.

BUT YES! YOU SHOULD TRY IT! Pull up the first episode post-haste!

It's one of the bestest, cutest, most attention-grabbing "high school girls in a club" show ever. And in a couple ways it really sets itself apart from other shows of that format like, say, K-On. Plus the directing/cinematography are really good, the OP changes a little bit almost every episode, and even though it's mostly episodic it actually has a really good climax near the end (unlike most light-hearted club shows)!

The default description block used on most websites has spoilers in it, though, so I'd recommend avoiding any websites/wikis for it! (If you need the Japanese name, it's Gakkou Gurashi.)

[D'rek]

Maark Abbott, on 22 August 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

Feel free to rave about most anything if I'm about, your recommendations usually fit with things I'll enjoy and as our resident anime queen it behoves me to listen.

Have you seen the Tatami Galaxy yet?

Maark Abbott, on 22 August 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

As to KNH, I'm pretty sure the term is used in the English translation of the manga as well. Not sure how they'd get around that to be honest, because in context, 'brother' was 'one who is close enough to be my brother but isn't biologically related to me'. Kind of a mouthful.

"Blood-brother" is a not-uncommon term for actual siblings or non-related-siblings who have sworn an oath or something like that. Is there some sort of opposite term in English, like "spirit-brother" ?

[LinearPhilosopher]

In regards to our linguistic discussion i find myself leaning towards d'rek opinion. When i first started watching subs i had to invest time researching Japanese honorifics and their meaning. This does pose an intitial barrier to understanding subs.

Once over the hurdle, i think the important question is does it make for effective communication?


Having Simon callin Kamina Aniki (which was translated as bro) was pretty spot on and keeping the original "aniki" wouldnt have added much value. Now in other contexts where the person is called Onii-san or Onii-sama, i think there is some differentiation going on, at which point keeping the honorifc in the sub communicates more than just brother.

Similarly, i don't think translating senpai/kouhai as senior/junir in a highschool diminishes in any way the meaning of the original word as its communicating the exact same thing. There is no lost in translation moment in this thing.

Where meaning may be loss is when people go from calling someone kaori-senpai to kaori, where there is either the change in or the absenting of an honorific. This is a cultural thing though and unless the translator wants to put notes (which is totally acceptable way of doing subs btw in moderation),this is the case where leaving the honorific in from the beginning would be an easier way to communicate this. This requires the subber knowing 100% how the relationship will end start to finish... May not be feasible.


it should also be considered that if we want 100% reliable translation, every single sentence would have apostrophes and notes, which would make subtitles not appealing. Example, In MHA, Deku uses "Boku" and Bakugon use "Ore" when using the first person singular. If we start transposing those on there, i don't see the light at the end of this tunnel.



As such I am fine with or without honorifics doesn't impact me too much but leaving honorifics in increases the faithfulness of the translation but it also hurts the accessibility of the translation.

Also reversing names is a no go, stick to translating what the characters are saying, not what they would say if they were westerners (WHICH AINT THE CASE). By doing so you are creating a disconnecting between what is being said phonetically and what is being subbed which is bad. Names are phonetical, say what the actual name is phonetically. We don't want to open the door to characters who are named phonetically "yuki" being subbed as snow.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 22 August 2017 - 07:56 PM

[D'rek]

LinearPhilosopher, on 22 August 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

We don't want to open the door to characters who are named phonetically "yuki" being subbed as snow.

Oh god, I never even thought of that. Please no.


And while we're on the topic, last season's Dragon-Maid had an... interesting difference between the English subs and dubs:



By all means, everyone's entitled to their own socio-political soapbox, but a random scene from episode 12 of a not-especially-popular anime seems like a weird place to put it

[Silencer]

LinearPhilosopher, on 22 August 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

We don't want to open the door to characters who are named phonetically "yuki" being subbed as snow.

Not a shadow of a lie, I swear I have seen this done...somewhere. But I can't remember what bloody anime it was in. Whatever it was, it wasn't great, but the sub was the kicker. XD



On a slightly related but different topic:

https://www.theverge...ing-controversy

Not sure if Lakeith Stanfield doesn't understand what "whitewashing" is, or if *I* don't understand what "whitewashing" is.

(In either case, "people can make up their minds after they go see it" is complete and utter bullshit - oh, we can tell you whether we thought your movie was socially toxic or not AFTER we pay to see it and send the only message the producers really ever get? Yeah, that's a swell idea. /s)

I'm also not sure how I feel about the argument from adaptation. On the one hand, it's not like Journey to the West or something hasn't been adapted and re-adapted countless times into different cultures and settings, mostly without *too* much fuss. On the other...that's a pretty strong argument to turn away fans of the source material. "The adaptation is so fundamentally different that the original culture it was set in is now irrelevant"? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. (More importantly, does simply setting a movie somewhere undercut accusations of whitewashing? Or IS that part of the whitewashing? For example, Ghost in the Shell already had a setting where the culture and ethnicity of the characters could be questioned or re-interpreted, the far-flung future where there is only beige and cobbled together cultural soup, plus, you know, extensive advancements in artificial bodies and genetic manipulation...thus at least partially opening the door for transplanting the actors (though still problematic as highlighted at the time). But this? Sure, taking the plot and wholesale transplanting it doesn't undercut any key elements of the story but does that obviate any social quandary or implication? Argh. My head.)

[D'rek]

Silencer, on 23 August 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

On a slightly related but different topic:

https://www.theverge...ing-controversy

Not sure if Lakeith Stanfield doesn't understand what "whitewashing" is, or if *I* don't understand what "whitewashing" is.

(In either case, "people can make up their minds after they go see it" is complete and utter bullshit - oh, we can tell you whether we thought your movie was socially toxic or not AFTER we pay to see it and send the only message the producers really ever get? Yeah, that's a swell idea. /s)

I'm also not sure how I feel about the argument from adaptation. On the one hand, it's not like Journey to the West or something hasn't been adapted and re-adapted countless times into different cultures and settings, mostly without *too* much fuss. On the other...that's a pretty strong argument to turn away fans of the source material. "The adaptation is so fundamentally different that the original culture it was set in is now irrelevant"? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. (More importantly, does simply setting a movie somewhere undercut accusations of whitewashing? Or IS that part of the whitewashing? For example, Ghost in the Shell already had a setting where the culture and ethnicity of the characters could be questioned or re-interpreted, the far-flung future where there is only beige and cobbled together cultural soup, plus, you know, extensive advancements in artificial bodies and genetic manipulation...thus at least partially opening the door for transplanting the actors (though still problematic as highlighted at the time). But this? Sure, taking the plot and wholesale transplanting it doesn't undercut any key elements of the story but does that obviate any social quandary or implication? Argh. My head.)

The term whitewashing doesn't mean anything anymore. By my understanding, the term really/originally means casting white actors to play non-white characters, like when John Wayne played Genghis Khan. But that has nothing to do with whether the source material is an adaptation or not. Hollywood doesn't usually do that so much anymore, so now people seem to throw the term whitewashing around at anything, like Ghost in the Shell being called whitewash even though it is set in a fictional future, had a very diverse cast, and its main character is *supposed* to look like a European white woman.

This Death Note adaptation isn't keeping the story in Japan and pretending that Light is still a Japanese boy while having him be played by a white actor - they're changing the story so the character is a white American and is being played by a white American. Likewise for the other characters.

IMO a "re-localized" adaptation (or to use a TVTropes term, I guess this would fall under "Setting Update") is a totally different thing than whitewashing and every culture does it. There's a Chinese version of What Women Want set in China with Chinese characters. Bollywood Superman is Indian, in India. There's a Korean movie version of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly set in Manchuria with Korean characters. Name any modern artistic culture and I'll bet it has a re-localized version of Hamlet or MacBeth, if not twenty.

So sure, maybe some people wanted Hollywood to make Death Wish a much more ambitious (and expensive) project that was still set in Japan, with all Japanese characters and therefore a Japanese cast. But I guess the Hollywood producers think doing a less-exact adaptation that is re-localized to Seattle will be more likely to sell and succeed with theatre-goers (and they're probably right). Doesn't make it white-washing, just makes it a re-localized adaptation. The source-material/anime fans can be upset by this if they want, but that doesn't make it wrong.