[acesn8s]

I almost threw Crossroads across the room when I finished it (been reading the series from when it was first released). I was very unsatisfied with the level of plot resolution. It does serve as a "line the ducks up in a row" kinda book. I don't think a first time reader would find it as frustrating now, since the series is complete and they haven't waited for that book or have to wait for the rest.

For those of you not looking forward to rereading the earlier books, I suggest checking out the encyclopaedia-wot. The chapter summaries are pretty detailed and most of the characters have hyperlinks to their own pages.

[Fid]

Mikkelinski, on 18 February 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

When I eventually start up again I won't be re-reading the first 9, If anything I'll just consult with the internet (the Wiki is quite detailed) if I so require. Sure I might miss out on some foreshadowing, but I do that anyway.

I am reading the chapter summaries on the WOT Encyclopaedia and then reading the decent chapters with the set piece battles etc - no braid tugging!

[braders1234]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I am not sure that I can face nearly 2 or three books of meandering plot lines and clichéd behaviour. There is however still enough about the series that makes me want to know what will happen. I am seriously considering reading the chapter summaries and then getting back in at book 10 or 11.

First though I will read something else.

I have heard good things about The Black Company by Cook. Is it any good or perhaps another recommendation?

[Ukjent]

Go for it, tBC is fantastic.

[Tehol the Only]

Black Company is great... some of the books are slightly-lower quality but overall it's incredibly original, funny and enthralling. It'll also give you the chance to see where many elements of tMbotF come from.
It has absolutely nothing in common with Wot though so if that's what you're loking for, you may want to look elsewhere.

[Macros]

If you're looking more farmboy heroesque stuff, eddings belgariad ticks the boxes.

but yes, tBC is awesome (especially the first set)

[lastname]

I don't mean to pile on - in a comatose thread that too - but this was just too damn funny.

CoT review on Amazon by Ian Marquis (hoping it's OK to post that excerpt here with that 'citation'):

Quote

Phone Rep: "Hello, this is ****, representing Bigelow Tea and other fine beverages. How may I help you?"

Caller: "Well, see, I have this problem with my tea..."

P: "Which variety of tea are you having the problem with?"

C: "Bigelow Blueberry Blast."

P: "Alright...what seems to be the problem?"

C: "See, there was this one batch of tea I brewed for myself one morning. I brewed it into a gleaming silver pitcher with a matching silver ropework tray and a set of three silver cups, each with its own saucer that was engraved around the perimeter with tiny flowers. I had bought the set in Saldea. Oh, the Sea-folk porcelain is wonderful, but I'm prone to breaking it. Anyway, I poured myself a cup of tea. There were piping hot scones in a silver bowl on the tray next to the tray that held the tea. The basket was covered with a white embroidered cloth slashed with blue silk, much like my dress. Oh, the neckline is a bit too low-cut for some of my acquaintances, who prefer good stout woolens to that Arad Domai silk that clings to the body in such a way as to leave very little to the imagination. So, as I was eating a scone and drinking my cup of tea, the steam from each rising and intertwining together like dueling serpents, I noticed a peculiar taste in the tea: it was cool and refreshing, with a hint of mint. Of course, I thought nothing of it. Giving my earlobe a tug and my braid a pull, I remembered the idiocy of every one of my male friends, indeed every male I have ever come into contact with, or ever will for that matter. The lot of woolheads can never compete with the superior logic and rock-solid reasoning that every female in the known universe possesses. It's no wonder we all behave the same."

P: "Um...what was your problem with the tea?"

C: "Oh yes, I'm sorry. After I had consumed the tea, I placed the cup on the silver ropework tray and covered the gleaming silver basket of scones again with the white embroidered cloth slashed with bands of blue silk, much like my dress. I remembered the stout man in the streets of Tar Valon: a vendor of sausages he was. Though I know I will never see him again, I felt it necessary to familiarize myself with every aspect of his appearance and personal history. He was a short, stout man with black hair that was beginning to grey at the temples, slicked back on his head in the manner of warriors, though it was obvious he was not one. He wore brown shoes of stained leather that rustled softly against the dirt of the streets, kicking up clouds of dust that lingered in the air even after he had passed. His pants were of stiff wool, dyed green and patched in many places. He wore a leather jerkin over a soiled white peasant's shirt, the cuffs of his sleeves rolled up and out of his way. Around his neck was a silver chain with a medallion attached to it that bore the image of a bear. He spoke with a gruff voice..."

P: "The TEA, ma'am."

C: "Well you don't have to be rude about it. I was only filling you in on the relevant details."

P: "I don't have all day, ma'am."

C: "You do remind me of a lad I once knew, back when I used to frequent the palace in Camelyn..."

P: "Look, we'll send you a case of Blueberry tea, alright?"

C: "Oh...alright then, I suppose that will do nicely."

P: "Do you have any other problems?"

C: "Well, there is this one other problem I have, but it's not with your tea. The other day, I was pouring myself a goblet of spiced wine. Only the wine had grown cold after being left on the windowsill for whatever reason. So I siezed hold of saidar. It was pure rapture...like opening all of my petals to the sun, for I am a flower. It was like floating in a river that tore along with great speed: resist it and you would be consumed by it. So I accepted it and was consumed by the sweet joy. I sent a tiny thread of fire into the pitcher to warm the wine. Soon, steam rose from the pitcher of gold, sunlight rebounding on the inset gems. I removed the pitcher from the stark Cairheinien plinth of the finest marble and poured myself a glass. But the use of saidar had turned the spices bitter..."

*CLICK*

C: "Hello? Hello? Wool-headed sheep-herder..."

[Illuyankas]

Hinter, on 18 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Perhaps we need a thread entitled "How far through WoT did you get before jacking it?"

That first Faile spanking scene. Rrrrrrrrrrrr.

Wait, jacking it in?! Oh dear.




(also that review is tedious, repetitive, tells us nothing informative and is perfect)

(PERFECT)

[Tehol the Only]

I come here to read this review every few weeks because it' s friggin hilarious.

Quote

Perhaps we need a thread entitled "How far through WoT did you get before jacking it?"

I kept reading till the end, but there was a moment i had to start powering through because i really had enough.
And that moment is Perrin's walk in the snow-covered camp. (in book 9??) I only remember he takes about half the book to go from one tent to another. Even after months, that memory is still painful.

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 03 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I loved the review - can't argue with very much of it.

I kept going until the end of WoT but it took me some ten years (and not just because of the wait until AMoL). I seem to remember I gave up at book nine, came back to book ten some years later..... wondered why I bothered but read book eleven anyway. Then I picked the first one of Sanderson's up in an offer and couldn't put it down.

Sanderson sure has his own writing issues, and I'd never say his books were anything like perfect but he saved the series for me in some ways. Injected some much needed rocket-up-the-arse pace and cut out a lot of the infinite embroidery details.

If you tell me they're wearing clothes, I'll believe you. You don't have to go on to tell me their exact nature down the teeniest tiniest thread :-P

[Orlion]

I got about halfway through ten before I decided to give up and wait for it to be finished. That was sometime in 2002-03.....whelp, it's finished, but I've decided to start right back at the beginning. Le sigh.

[Macros]

masochist?

[The_Wanderer]

That was brutal ... but I couldn't stop laughing either. I'm fan of Wheel of Time, I was able to look past the flaws, but the writer is correct with his claims ... especially the way gender is handled in the series. Jordan should have definitely cut the series down, too.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The_Wanderer, on 03 December 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm fan of Wheel of Time, I was able to look past the flaws, but the writer is correct with his claims ... especially the way gender is handled in the series.

You know, I used to think so too. But now that I'm older (I began WoT 15 years ago, as a young teen), smarter, more experienced, actually aware of issues in feminist theory, and now that I've lived past the age of most of the main WoT cast, my thoughts on the matter have changed.

The WoT is set in a world that is, in many respects, matriarchal: women are at the top of the political pyramid (Aes Sedai rule the main continent, Wise Ones govern the day-to-day affairs of the Aiel, the Sea Folk are governed by women, one of the most important nations--Andor--is ruled by Queens, and many lesser nations are also queenly/woman-governed [e.g. Ghealdan, Altara/Ebou Dar, the Merchant Council of Arad Doman, the Women's Circles of the Two Rivers, the Panarch of Tarabon]). Women have a huge role to play in that world, and the series actually features a number of strong female role models.

At the same time, it is still a fundamentally sexist world divided along heteronormative and stereotypical gender boundaries (e.g. nations such as Arad Doman where women are the primary traders are considered kinda weird, women seldom fight except for Maidens, Seanchan, and Saldeans, which characters think is weird, women typically seem to take on the usual panoply of household chores, etc.). On the other hand, throughout the series we see characters come into contact with these stereotypes, and they eventually come to resist them (Elayne even goes so far as to explicitly start recruiting women for her armies). Female characters chafe at gendered expectations, and male characters take some time to come to terms with more enlightened modes of thinking, though in the end they often come 'round.


As far as individual characters are concerned... yes, many of the women can be kind of annoying, especially early on (upon re-reading, actually, I didn't think so at all, except for Egwene when she becomes Amyrlin). But as I re-read the series these last few months (my first full re-read of all the books, and my first re-read as a proper adult), I realized something: they act that way because of their age, not their gender. The men are exactly the same: everybody thinks they have all the answers, and know exactly what needs doing. They're brash, arrogant, and totally inexperienced--just as I was when I was their age. Those are traits associated with youth. To a large extent, I'm still like that--I suspect we all are, to some extent. It's part of being human. The older men and women, however, are... well, their behaviour is different. Sure, it's often still informed by sexist stereotypes, and they've internalized some patterns of behaviour, but by and large, they're just older, more experienced, and thus more palatable. If you look at the world around you, you'll find it's much the same way. Some of us have a feminist consciousness, but mostly we don't. And mostly, we don't pause to reflect on how our behaviour expresses internalized gender stereotypes. Upon re-reading, I actually thought Jordan's characters were far more realistic (and had far more depth) than I had initially thought.

[Macros]

Strange, all I got was a bunch of bitchy women who think and claim men are incapable.even when there rescuing aforementioned bitchy womenfolk.

age does not seem to be a barrier for being a snotty bitch, indeed Cadsuane is a perfect example of an old bitch.

men are quite realistically portrayed in the fact the older men are beaten down and well used to women being bitchy so just take it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I quite disagree. The young men in the series (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Gawyn, etc.) all behave in the same privileged, arrogant, and snotty way as the young women sometimes do. The majority of the older women don't, or at least, don't do so consistently. I certainly don't read Cadsuane as being "bitchy"--she's a commanding presence used to being in charge. Sure, she's not particularly sympathetic as a character. Sure, she's bossy. But don't forget that any number of studies have shown that we tend to perceive men who behave that way as assertive while women are classed as bitchy. I suspect that much of the "bitchiness" we perceive(d) in the WoT's women was due in part to gender bias on our own parts.

This post has been edited by Goaswerfraiejen: 19 December 2013 - 02:23 PM

[Macros]

Guess its a perspective thing here.

I read the young men as being yong dickheady men.
the older men basically scared of the women folk (ok lets justify this with Aes Sedai being powerful women folk). But at the end of the day, the Aes Sedai are bound by oath not to hurt you, so they shouldn't have the entire male cast entirely whipped.
Faile was an unmitigated bitch, Perrin rolled over and took it.
All three of Randys wives were bitches in their own way (Min the least, incidentally my favourite female character in the series)
If I was faced with such a condescending attitude as 99% of the women in the WoT have (in a man or a woman) I would politely tell them to go fuck themselves and ignore anything they tried to tell.me to do. The ammount of douchebaggery evidenced in some characters just makes one wonder why more than just the island people (who we didn't care about or know) didnt commit mass suicide. The manipulation and general bastardyness evidenced by the Aes Sedai would characterise a master villan or rapist in a male character. Possibly both.

This post has been edited by Macros: 19 December 2013 - 02:57 PM

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Yeah, I don't expect we'll agree. I don't really have a problem with the Aes Sedai being cutthroat realpolitikers, or with folk being on-the-scared-side-of-wary of them despite the three oaths: that just strikes me as pretty realistic given their mental power, political power, wealth, and upbringing. It's worth pointing out that Quick Ben and Shadowthrone are pretty manipulative and Machiavellian in the MBOTF (and we spend a decent amount of time with them), but there's no sense of them being particularly evil or rapisty. The Aes Sedai strike me as wily politicians, but nothing worse. And certainly not "bitchy" (although definitely annoying and frustrating!--but I think that's completely disconnected from their gender, and totally connected to their AS privilege).

As far as Faile goes... I know that she's a favourite target of fan hate, but to be honest I'm kind of puzzled as to why. She doesn't get much screen time prior to Malden, and during and after Malden she seems perfectly fine/reasonable to me: her arc kind of mirrors Egwene's in the Tower (she's growing into leadership, becoming strong, etc.). Perhaps that's the problem? That is to say, perhaps the problem is that during her limited screen time prior to Malden, she's mostly instigating fights with Perrin (especially over Berelain), and those fights are told to us via Perrin's confused and hurt perspective? I suppose I could see why that might be frustrating. Then again, it's made pretty clear to us that the reason for those fights has to do with her wanting to be treated with respect, as an equal and not a bauble whose acquiescence is to be taken for granted. Faile's motivations strike me as perfectly reasonable, even if there's an element of culture shock involved (since we spend most of our time with Andorans, not Saldaeans).

By the end, Perrin learns the same lesson with respect to women (and the world) that Rand does: you can't just shut them away in a castle's tower to protect them. You have to let them fight and bleed for themselves, and make their own choices, mistakes, and sacrifices. They're people and endowed with free will, and that's the whole point of the Wheel's turning. It's not that wanting to protect people or prevent them from coming to harm is in itself a bad thing, it's just that the attitudes informing those desires (as Rand and Perrin evinced them) are themselves blind/arrogant/ignorant/mysogynistic/etc., and prevent them from being proper, fully-actualized human beings.


Finally, so far as Rand's women are concerned... again, I'm not really sure where the hate comes from. Min doesn't really get any screen time aside from her lovey-dovey interactions with Rand (and if that's part of the problem with her, then I'm happy enough to agree). Elayne gets plenty of time as a novice/accepted, and then later as daughter-heir/queen. The latter screentime seems perfectly fine and non-bitchy to me (she mostly just manoeuvres politically and takes part in fighting). The former screentime does smack of childish arrogance/condescension, but it's one of those things that struck me as being the result of immaturity (Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene are new to the Tower and new to their powers, as well as full of their strength, of which everyone makes a big deal) rather than RJ's way of characterizing women. Aviendha... shrug. I have a hard time imagining/remembering what she did that may have seemed objectionable.

[amphibian]

The thing is that Perrin asking Faile to stay home and be the administrator of his domains/people makes a ton of sense. Perrin is basically a full time soldier at that point. He knows that he has to be practical or people end up dead. Faile is not practical in the least in what she wants from him personally.

Faile was trained for years in how to run places because her brothers died. She knows how to fight - using knives, which means fuck-all in war. It's actively detrimental to her safety that she knows the knife fighting stuff, because later on her own knives nearly kill her. In fact, each mission she takes upon herself to do ends up with her nearly dying and/or being raped. Perrin rescues her several times. He knows her skill-set. He thus sends her to where she is most useful - organizing shit and being a quartermaster/in charge of the withdrawal of forces.

That's being smart. That's not being sexist or disrespecting his woman's skillset.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

amphibian, on 19 December 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

That's being smart. That's not being sexist or disrespecting his woman's skillset.

With what are you taking issue? If it's my claim that Rand and Perrin espouse excessively paternalistic attitudes towards their female companions at the start of the series, then your example from the end of the series (when I claim they've largely learned their lessons and stopped) isn't really relevant.

This post has been edited by Goaswerfraiejen: 19 December 2013 - 08:03 PM