[Rhand]

Something I never understood while reading MoI, Anaster is born from a woman using a dead man to impregnate herself and who (based on the few appearances she makes) is a friggin looney. He's also born in a society that's devoid of any humanity.
How is he able to talk? Who would've educated him, and how? If I remember correctly (has been a few weeks since I read the book) he even had a few philosophical discourses.

I find it hard to grasp how exactly he has come to this level of intelligence in a "world" where everything is based upon destruction, not building.

[Kanese S's]

His mother can talk. Why would it be surprising that he can?

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 14 May 2011 - 09:10 PM

[Rhand]

Kanese S, on 14 May 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

His mother can talk. Why would it be surprising that he can?

Granted, 'talking' in itself is not thát strange. It's more his level of intelligence that surprises me. There's absolutely no reason why he's taught more than the absolute basics of speech, especially when you look at the Tenescowri-society and how it's organised.

[Aptorian]

His inception was supernatural. He's a mage/priest. Mages are often shown having an ability to soak up knowledge of the world and the beyond just through affinity. Also, who is to say that he never conquered any cities with libraries?

Intelligence is not based on your level of education, all though that will certainly help it mature, intelligence is something you're born with. Some kids are brighter than others.

[LordofTheFallen]

Assume that Anaster is twenty years old at the very youngest. That said I predict that the Pannion Domin isn't nearly that old, maybe 5-10 years at the oldest. So it would make sense that there was a period where he lived normaly, or as normal as you can with a mother like that, before the Pannion Domin was formed. Also, his mother is one of ten (I think) important witches or something, so that would explain why he has his elevated status. He was probably just handed the Tenescowri like any other noble born gets an army.

So he was probably taught proper speech and language well before the war simply as part of his upbringing.

[amphibian]

LordofTheFallen, on 15 July 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

Assume that Anaster is twenty years old at the very youngest. That said I predict that the Pannion Domin isn't nearly that old, maybe 5-10 years at the oldest. So it would make sense that there was a period where he lived normaly, or as normal as you can with a mother like that, before the Pannion Domin was formed. Also, his mother is one of ten (I think) important witches or something, so that would explain why he has his elevated status. He was probably just handed the Tenescowri like any other noble born gets an army.

So he was probably taught proper speech and language well before the war simply as part of his upbringing.

It's a good thing that you're being active in the forums, but when you "answer" a question with wrong information, it crosses a border. If your memory is fuzzy, I ask you to look up sources or quotes either online or in the books for what you state as fact. It helps to keep things straight in people's minds.

What I'm referring to is that Anaster never had a normal life. His mother was one of the first Tenescowri and he was the first of their children to be born. The handing of the Tenescowri command to him may not have been earned by deed, but as a religious symbol, it was important that he assume overall leadership of the ravening horde.

The following is from page 267 of Memories of Ice:

Quote

The Faith flowered here first. A caravan from Elingarth was encamped beyond the walls. The foreigners were rewarded in a single night. And the First Child of the Dead Seed was gifted to the mortal world nine months later. That child has now come of age, an event that has triggered a renewed burgeoning of the Faith - a second Embrasure has occurred, under the command of the First Child, Anaster. You shall see him now - his mother at his side - leading his newfound Tenescowri. A war awaits them far to the north - the faithless city of Capustan must be rewarded."

The Tenescowri came about because of the Pannion Seer. They did not exist before him - although the people who would become Tenescowri did have lives before - and so Anaster had one hell of a crazy childhood in the midst of that gibbering insanity.

[Kanese S's]

It is possible that as the very first "child of the dead seed" he would have been educated by Seerdomins and such.

[Rhand]

Kanese S, on 15 July 2011 - 06:12 AM, said:

It is possible that as the very first "child of the dead seed" he would have been educated by Seerdomins and such.

That's a plausible enough explanation for me.

[LordofTheFallen]

Quote

It's a good thing that you're being active in the forums, but when you "answer" a question with wrong information, it crosses a border. If your memory is fuzzy, I ask you to look up sources or quotes either online or in the books for what you state as fact. It helps to keep things straight in people's minds.

Usually when you accuse someone of wrong information, you then prove how exactly said information was wrong, but in your case, you just re-worded it and repeated it back to me...

Lets look at what I said and what you said:
Me first.

Quote

So it would make sense that there was a period where he live normaly, or as normal as you can with a mother like that.

And now you.

Quote

What I'm referring to is that Anaster never had a normal life. His mother was one of the first Tenescowri and he was the first of their children to be born.

I thought it was quite obvious that living with an insane witch of a mother who rapes dead men would not be normal, hence the "as normal as you can get" joke, but apparently it wasn't. I will try to be less subtle in the future. As for what you said afterwards, that is simply common knowledge that, while it does support your argument, it supports mine as well considering how they are the same.

My next quote.

Quote

His mother is one of ten (I think) important witches or something, so that would explain why he has his elevated status. He was probably just handed the Tenescowri like any other noble born gets an army.

And yours.

Quote

The handing of the Tenescowri command to him may not have been earned by deed, but as a religious symbol, it was important that he assume overall leadership of the ravening horde.

Again, I did not say he got this army by any deed he performed, and in a Holy War, yes, religion will be dominant. That said, I suggested that he got the Tenescowri because he was A) The First Child of the Dead Seed, and his mother had obvious ranking, if only in the Tenescowri itself. And so they decided that he shall lead the army. Then you said, after telling me I was wrong, that he was simply a religious symbol, and no other proof besides that. I at least gave proof of my concept, and your religious symbol answer falls right into what I was outlaying. It was because of what he was and who his mother was that he got the army, not any deeds he did.

Your book passage simply outlined the beginning of his life and didn't really change much concerning this argument. I'll admit that it looked like the seer was in place at that time, but it was a flashback, and if we followed the timeline it would have placed Anastar in charge before he could walk...

Quote

The Tenescowri came about because of the Pannion Seer. They did not exist before him - although the people who would become Tenescowri did have lives before - and so Anaster had one hell of a crazy childhood in the midst of that gibbering insanity.

Again, putting words in my mouth. I never said the Tenescowri were around before the Seer, I simply said Anaster was around before the Tenescowri.

I appreciate how you are trying to keep this forum true, but when you give "corrections" that lack proof and in fact support my original answer, that crosses a boarder.

[Ilona]

I think the main difference between your and amphibian's versions is your assessment of the age/history of the Pannion Domin. I'm not sure how you meant this:

Quote

That said I predict that the Pannion Domin isn't nearly that old, maybe 5-10 years at the oldest. So it would make sense that there was a period where he lived normaly, or as normal as you can with a mother like that, before the Pannion Domin was formed.

But it looks to me as if you were implying that Anaster's mother (and the other women of the dead seed) were in habit of raping dying men just for the heck of it, before the Pannion faith came along, and then went on raising their children in normal ("as normal as can get") homes/families. Now, I'm sure you probably didn't mean it that way, since you seem to agree with amphi in your second post on how things went, but that's what the quote sounds like. To me at least.

And what amphi's then trying to correct, I believe, is that the faith came before Anaster's mother got herself pregnant by the dead man.

And yeah, I suppose I could also be misinterpreting both of you, and if that's the case, I shall apologize and shut up.

This post has been edited by Ilona: 16 July 2011 - 09:28 AM

[amphibian]

Ilona, you're fine. You got exactly what I was trying to do.

LordofTheFallen, on 15 July 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

Again, putting words in my mouth. I never said the Tenescowri were around before the Seer, I simply said Anaster was around before the Tenescowri.

Well, you would be wrong in saying that.

Furthermore, most of your post misses my points. I did not cite a flashback, as the priest is talking to Lady Envy in the present day. What timeline would place Anaster in charge before he could walk? He is the first to reach the age of majority - whatever the Tenescowri set that as - and was thus given command. He doesn't have to be 20. He could be 14 or any number that merits the frequent descriptions of him as a "young man".

Timeline: Pannion worked his way out of the Rent, along with the Matron -> establishment of the Pannion faith -> the creation of the Tenescowri -> Anaster's conception -> Anaster reaches the age of majority -> Anaster is given command of the Tenescowri.

I'll add more onto this: the Tenescowri and the Pannion faith required that they essentially act like viruses. They infected a new city, converted, killed, ate and/or raped all the inhabitants and when the people were "rewarded", they burst out and moved on to the next city/cell. You can also envision it like a coffee ring spreading outwards, with a desolate and dead center. Anaster and his mother would have been with the horde the entire way, as she was one of the first Tenescowri. Although since Anaster and his mother were religious symbols, they probably didn't have to move as quickly or have to feed themselves.

[LordofTheFallen]

At this point it seems the only thing we are disagreeing on is the timeline.

Ok, I'm saying that the tenescowri were the ones who went into poverty and starvation and had to become what they were. That doesn't mean that anaster, the first child of the dead seed, was the first of the tenescowri. So assume that his mom, who was messed up anyway, embraces the faith in its early stage (as in before they start to wage war on everyone) rapes a dead guy and then gives birth to anaster. then when the tenescowri form, however later that is, anaster takes the reins. That is my opinion.

Lets look at what your sugesting. The tenescowri are formed and anaster is born as a result of it, he is then carried around in it until he was suitable to lead it. Since he's described as a young man, you are right in the fact that he could be 14, but no younger. So that would mean that this tenescowri, and by extention the Domin, has been around for almost 15 years at the earliest. And im not talking about low-key "been around" I'm talking full out killing everyone for 15 years, otherwise the tenescowri would have no reason to exist.

That said, when the host decide to attack this "holy war" (i think it was at the end of GoTM) they said it was just starting up. That can give it about five years at the longest in its full out state, and since each book is about 6 months apart that can give it at the very most, a year before they get there. So now we have 8 years of the Domin that don't fit in anywhere.

I can't quote GoTM because I don't own it, but it you can find the part about fightiing the Holy War then feel free to post it. It might have said the war was starting up or it might not have, but I can't quote it.

[Daemonwolf]

This is an interesting topic. As was stated earlier, education is not a sign of intelligence. However, in my opinion you can likely assume that from a leadership perspective (i.e. the Pannion Seer) you would want anybody of command rank to be educated if for no other reason (seeing as its a mindless crowd of starving cannibals, I don't think inspiration is a factor) than to be able to report and receive 'orders' per se.

Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to have any more than y'all do to go off of, but as is SE's writing style, he brought the character in (much like many others) and didn't necessarily feel the need to give a complete back history. So this whole question of how does he know eveything he knows, and why does he come across as having been formally educated at some point in time, is purely speculative and open to every individuals possible explanation.

So me personally, I feel that having been born and raised as a 'special' child, he was most likely offered tutoring from the more educated among the Pannion followers. Much like if your born to any 'high profile' family, your most likely going to start being groomed from an early age to follow suit....

just my two cents...

Quote

The First Child of the Dead Seeddreams of a father's dying breath

and hears in eternal refrain

the scream trapped in his lungs –

Dare you step behind his eyes

even for a moment?

The First Child of the Dead Seed

leads an army of sorrow

down hunger's bone-picked road

where a mother dances and sings –

Dare you walk in his steps

and dearly hold her hand?

The First Child of the Dead Seed

is sheathed in the clutter of failed armour

defending him from the moment of birth

through years of dire schooling –

Do not dare judge him hard

lest you wear his skin.



Silba of the Shattered Heart

K'alass

MoI, UK Trade, p.466

This post has been edited by Daemonwolf: 17 July 2011 - 10:41 PM

[IgnatiusKruppe]

Also keep in mind that it would take the Tenescowri quite awhile to devour all the available resources & either "reward" or absorb everyone continuing to make new resources.
Darujhistan and several other large population centers are within a fairly short distance and IIRC Darujhistan wasn't suffering due to the fate of it's hinterlands
stretching southeast down the coast.

The Peasant Army may have been raping and pillaging, but there wasn't any cause for them to descend utterly into madness until they got to the point where there wasn't anything
left to eat besides each other and started going crazy from braaaaaains.

If history has proven anything, it doesn't matter how "egalitatiran" 99% of your society is. Someone is still eating well.