[Abyss]

It's sort of the point tho', isn't it?

We see the BB's in GotM and tho' we're told they're something special, aside from Kalam and QB and to a lesser extent Hedge (nuking Raest in blind screaming panic), there isn't much to make them all that legedary. Quite the contrary, they're a bunch of goofballs.

DG tells us a lot about why Malazan marines and soldiers are something special, and then we get to MoI and see just why the BB's are more than your typical soldier, but also fairly normal people at that. As impressive as they are, in Coral they are decimated.

So... then we have the BHs. we actually see them 'grow up' over the remaining books. By the end, specifically the core group of Fid's marines and heavies and relateds, after Yghatan, Malaz Island, Leth and the Nah'ruk, they're as hard as the BBs ever were. They just don't know it.

But because we've seen the BHs get there, as opposed to the BBs who we saw more or less in their closing days AFTER the glory, they're also more human.

Which tells us in turn something about the BBs and 'legends'. Tavore's speach just before the Regulars' Stand against the FA brings home nicely the point that there are heroes all over, we just don't see them, and sometimes the ones we see aren't quite what we think they are.

[Kanese S's]

Pretty much what Abyss and King of Chains said, especially that last paragraph.

The Bridgeburners and Bonehunters are similar (though there are, of course, big differences, too), it's just that we started at different places in their stories. We started the story of the Bridgeburners somewhat near the end, at least as far as their story as a mortal, active army.

The Bonehunters' story we began at the actual beginning, when they were recruits. I doubt the Bridgeburners were any more impressive when they were recruits. We saw them do all the things for which they would probably later become legendary, maybe in part of Seven Cities and almost certainly in Lether, and probably in Bolkando and Kolanse as well. With the Bridgeburners, on the other hand, why they're legendary, except for the very end, is pretty much the backstory.

Will their story ever become well known in the land of their birth? Who knows. Perhaps. Seems to be implied that at least a few of them returned to Malaz City.

I would quip, though, that they were not technically exiled. They chose to leave rather than lay down their arms and be butchered by mobs. Not much of a choice, but still, I don't think there was an official exile. Off topic, I'm somewhat interested in what happens to the Malazan Empire politically at this point, both its most powerful armies (the Bonehunters and the Host) having left.

Anyway, the point is that I think the big difference between the Bonehunters and Bridgeburners is more perspective in how they're presented because of where we start their stories.

[The Tiger of Summer]

My whole take on the Bridgeburners is that, in Gardens we as the reader are just dropped into the middle of their later days. We hit the ground running with some diabloical plot already underway... a betrayal for reasons completely unknown, a soul shifted Chaos Puppet Mage, ANOMANDER RAKE? I believe the intended sentiment is that the Bridgeburners are just soldiers, but soldiers that can stand against these enemies are worthy of legend. So you're stuck in. I was in love with the Bridgeburners from day one, and although none of my friends had read the books, I would reference them in all matters and was happy to explain then story behind it. I got at least three guys hooked just by letting them read 'the Assassins on the Roof vs. Quick and Kalam'... I cried when Whiskeyjack died. I cried at the end of MoI and almost shat my pants when that character is looking out on Black Coral and turns his back just in time to miss seeing the last of the Bridgeburners go in on Black Moranth quorl. I literally almost shat. I remember standing up and grabbing my stomach. But they were so legendary. I should have seen that Erikson intended to kill them off. I should have known.

Then the Bonehunters came along. I only cared about Strings and Tavore because she was Paran's sister. I was having a hard time latch on to any of the Bonehunters, likely because I didn't think many of them would last. I liked Ges, and Stormy but they were Chain of Dogs... Cuttle, Chain of Dogs.... I hated the rookies. I hated Smiles. Wanted her to die. I was offput by the fact that every time Bottle was in the narrative some ghost was giving him a handjob. That was definitely a low point. I hated Faradan Sort, she stomped out Joyful Union. Kindly? Reminded me of my Uncle Steve. Boring. But then something changed when they launched the Lether Invasion. They became true soldiers. I grew to LOVE Hellian, probably more than Urb but thats between him and me. How she basically went on a giant pub crawl across Lether running an underground PR campaign for the Malazans. What a great character. Throatslitter was good too, I liked his style and I liked how he was the new Kalam, coming up. Tarr and Koryk were alright but it wasn't until Dust of Dreams that those two turned glorious. In the Nah'ruk pit.

That event elevated them past Bridgeburners in my eyes. The Nah'ruk easily trump any of the Bridgeburners opponents, any Barghast, or Rhivi, or Tiste Andii. They certainly trump any Mott Regular. The Bridgeburners failed against the Pannion Domin... A bunch of zombies. The Bonehunters were mauled yes, but they were not decimated. They were tempered. But then the hard part came. The Glass Desert. I thought the Bonehunters were all going to be eaten by The Snake of Kolanse... But then Erikson changed direction with those kids. When he said that Fiddler was out leading the army of bonehunters through the desert I imagined that he was going to be the first victim of the Snake, eaten alive by hungry children would have been a suprise and I thought Fid was going to bite it there big time. I was wrong. I often am. It would have made for a good read though. I'm happy with the way the Bonehunters went out. I am glad that Erikson decided to leave some of them alive because maybe oneday we'll see them again. Maybe oneday he'll write another book about the Host and what happened next. Maybe we'll go to Stratem to take on the last refuge of the Forkrul Assail. It can't just end like this.... some party in the Ewok Village with fireworks and lots of bongos. Wait, that was Return of Jedi. But that's what it felt like. Like the whole cast gathered up around Tavore at the end and had a big 'after battle' hug and a cast photo with the ghost of Whiskeyjack standing on the berm behind them making out with Korlat.

Ah well, Erikson I love your stuff man. I will buy them all. Keep em comin.

[Kanese S's]

You... you hated.... Smiles? My heart?

[Ilona]

I still hate her. Being mean to Corabb. The bitch.

[Kanese S's]

But she's such an awesome bitch!

[Tuberski]

It's because there is no "Lay of the Bonehunters" video.........

[corabb bhilanthenu'alas]

I liked the Bridgeburners more than the Bonehunters. Fiddler and Hedge. But I loved Corabb. I figured his number would be up sometime, but I was still sad that he died.

[Gatekeeper]

Tuberski, on 15 May 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

It's because there is no "Lay of the Bonehunters" video.........

Ahahaha, EPIC post!


Ps. I love the fact that SE made us love these fuckers so much that we keep on coming back to the boards to fight it out about things. SE and ICE are such mind ninjas!!

[blackzoid]

Its simple.
There are far too many Bonehunters.

Look at the list of characters in Reaper's Gale. Than compare it with Memories of Ice or Gardens of the Moon for the
Bridgeburners. In The Bonehunters/Reaper's Gale and Dust of Dreams the amount of Bonehunter characters was at least twice the amount of Bridegburners shown. Maybe even 3 times. SE was always jumping from squad to squad to squad in those books. Thats why you don't care about them as much, not as much time was spent on the individual soldiers. (With the exceptions of Fiddler's squad and maybe Gesler's)

[Bonecaster]

Haven't read the other posts yet.

The Bridgeburners is an extraordinary group, and many of the individual Bridgeburners are extraordinary. Their origin sets them apart from any other. Crossing Raraku isn't just an incredible physical thing. The holy desert changed them in other ways. They were no longer typical people. They even age more slowly than normal. And they were no longer a typical unit. They'd been united in ways that nobody else had been. And the culling/refining in Blackdog united them even more. Quick Ben saw all this when they caught up to him.

Kimloc also saw it. He knew there was something about them that demanded an act of power from him. It helped that he had the very best of them in front of him when he did it, but many of the others would probably have been sufficient. (And I imagine at least most of the others would have been standing in front of Kimloc for the same reason. For their sense of right and wrong that lead Fiddler there.)

That we get to see so much of some incredible individual Bridgeburners helps us feel as we do toward the group. If Whiskeyjack, Fiddler, Kalam, Quick, are so amazing, and so noble, we can't help think that the others are somehow worthy of their company. And Trotts' fight to lead the White Face Barghast shows some great qualities in him.

The Bonehunters wouldn't exist if not for the Bridgeburners. Specifically, Fiddler. He's the reason for their name. He helped guide Bottle. He got many a group of them through the fire of Y'Ghatan. Etc, etc, until he lead them all through the Glass Desert, and saved Kaminsod.

[Asharak]

As others have said we meet the BB when they are legends, and only the verry elite of them are still alive(post battle of Pale). Futhermore we are introduced to them through Parans thoughs, and he heroeworships them at first. Its hard not to be smitten.

Assuming the Bonehunters story got famous in the Malazan empire, someone describing them from the outside would probably make them sound just as hardcore legendary as the Bridgeburners. They destroyed the Seven City rebelion,they defeated the Tiste Edur Empire, survived a battle against the Na`hruk, and fought the armies of the Forkrull Assail. Insanely impressive.

As a reader its a bit easier to get invested in the Bonehunters, who seam like normal human beings, than in the larger than life Bridgeburners. Screentime wise I felt I got verry close to the squads ledd by Fiddler, Balm, Gesler, Badan Gruk, Sinn, Helian, Urb and Borduke(for as long as that squad lasted).

This post has been edited by Asharak: 29 September 2011 - 12:21 PM

[Kanubis]

Plus, and well... someone has to say it, but the Bonehunters' trek across the wastelands probably made crossing Raraku seem like a day out at the beech.

[Kanese S's]

Indeed. The wastelands and the glass desert are not pleasant.

[Kanese S's]

blackzoid, on 16 August 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

Its simple.
There are far too many Bonehunters.

Look at the list of characters in Reaper's Gale. Than compare it with Memories of Ice or Gardens of the Moon for the
Bridgeburners. In The Bonehunters/Reaper's Gale and Dust of Dreams the amount of Bonehunter characters was at least twice the amount of Bridegburners shown. Maybe even 3 times. SE was always jumping from squad to squad to squad in those books. Thats why you don't care about them as much, not as much time was spent on the individual soldiers. (With the exceptions of Fiddler's squad and maybe Gesler's)

As a group I actually care about the Bonehunters more.