[QuickTidal]

Watching the HBO show I liked the guy they chose to play Benjen Stark as he looks like a cross between Sean Bean (his onscreen brother obviously) and David Thewlis, and it set me wondering...

We know, as First Ranger, he was sent looking for Waymar Royce (who was killed in the prologue for AGOT by White Walkers right? Or was he just missing?) by Mormont north of the Wall but since then his whereabouts are unknown right? Mormont refuses to name a new First ranger as Benjen is not officially dead. I have always wondered about when we will see or hear about him again. Would it be too much of a dream to have a POV for him in ADWD?

I dunno.

Anyways, any other characters we last heard about and don't know about currently status-wise?....

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

I always mentally envisioned that Coldhands chap as carrying a huge neon saying saying "HI I'M BENJEN STARK HI HI HI". Just a thought, though.

[QuickTidal]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 25 April 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

I always mentally envisioned that Coldhands chap as carrying a huge neon saying saying "HI I'M BENJEN STARK HI HI HI". Just a thought, though.

Haha, nice. I think the biggest issue with theory is Samwell and Bran seeing Coldhands and Bran did not recognize him as his uncle at all....but Samwell saw older Watch members as Wights...so by that rationale I'd say that Coldhands probably isn't Stark simply cause Bran didn't recognize him. He's a herring methinks.

I dunno. I just think it's very telling that he's yet to show back up/we haven't found out his fate...it seems purposeful on Martin's part to leave him so open ended.

He also could just be dead too...I dunno.

I usually follow the whole "if you didn't SEE the death it didn't happen" TV trope for books too.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 April 2011 - 07:50 PM

[End of Disc One]

One death we didn't see is Syrio Forel. Some people think he's Jaq'en H'Ghar (sp?), but I say he's dead.

[QuickTidal]

I think Forel is dead. I think he existed to set Arya on her path to sword-fighting and the faceless men of Braavos, but that he served his purpose. It'd be nice if he lived, but his death meant a lot to Arya's survival in ACOK as she keeps channeling his wisdom during her march north with Yoren, Hot Pie et al.

What about Arthur Dayne? I have a haunting suspicion that the most famous and awesome swordsman in the realm is still around as the events surrounding his death are foggy at best, even VIA Ned's info in AGOT. I am also a proponent of HIS sister Ashara Dayne being Jon Snow's mother (as opposed to the commonly held fanfic theory that his parents are actually Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen) and I actually think the resolving of Jon's parentage might bring about something about Arthur Dayne's supposed death or not-death.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 25 April 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

I think Forel is dead. I think he existed to set Arya on her path to sword-fighting and the faceless men of Braavos, but that he served his purpose. It'd be nice if he lived, but his death meant a lot to Arya's survival in ACOK as she keeps channeling his wisdom during her march north with Yoren, Hot Pie et al.

What about Arthur Dayne? I have a haunting suspicion that the most famous and awesome swordsman in the realm is still around as the events surrounding his death are foggy at best, even VIA Ned's info in AGOT. I am also a proponent of HIS sister Ashara Dayne being Jon Snow's mother (as opposed to the commonly held fanfic theory that his parents are actually Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen) and I actually think the resolving of Jon's parentage might bring about something about Arthur Dayne's supposed death or not-death.

I think Dayne is dead. He made his last stand out of honour and from all the descriptions of him and the other two members of the Kingsguard, they wouldn't count offering token resistance and then surrendering as doing their duty. Also, were I the ones who fought them, I'd make damn sure they're dead, too. Unless he is Illyn Payne... name sounds like Arthur Dayne but said without a tongue (Impossible, because the mad Targaryen had it pulled out).

I agree about Dayne's sister being the likely mother. For one, Jon does not have the Targaryen eyes. For another, Robert would have wanted any Targaryen dead, especially a son of Rhaegar. Robert aside, there were plenty of others who would have wanted that, too. As a third, but here my memory is getting hazy, wasn't Lyanna kept under lock and key somewhere by Rhaegar? That would imply guards, servants, et cetera, all of whom would know whether or not she was pregnant.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Tapper, on 25 April 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

I agree about Dayne's sister being the likely mother. For one, Jon does not have the Targaryen eyes.

Not all Targaryen have white hair and purple eyes. Baelor Breakspear from THE HEDGE KNIGHT was perfectly normal. Robert also has Targaryen blood.

Anyway, what about Davos? Manderly(?) says he killed him but dif he?

[Isa]

QuickTidal, on 25 April 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

I agree about Dayne's sister being the likely mother. For one, Jon does not have the Targaryen eyes. For another, Robert would have wanted any Targaryen dead, especially a son of Rhaegar. Robert aside, there were plenty of others who would have wanted that, too. As a third, but here my memory is getting hazy, wasn't Lyanna kept under lock and key somewhere by Rhaegar? That would imply guards, servants, et cetera, all of whom would know whether or not she was pregnant.

Don't know about lock and key, it's mentioned somewhere Rhaegar had 'the Tower of Joy' built, presumably for Lyanna and himself? Assuming she died giving birth to Jon and Ned found her, I don't think he would have told anyone, knowing what that would do to Jon's chances of ever growing up.

If it turns out Rhaegar and Lyanna is not Jon's parents I will be very surprised, there's just too many clues pointing in that direction. On the other hand, this might be an intentional trick on Martins part, but unless he is being really smart about it it's gotten to the point where I would think it was a dirty trick.

[QuickTidal]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 25 April 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

Anyway, what about Davos? Manderly(?) says he killed him but dif he?

Another good question. I'm on my re-read and will have to chime in about Davos afterwards as my memory is foggy (I read ACOK, ASOS and AFFC once each when they came out).

[acesn8s]

What about Loras Tyrell? We heard he was either killed or majorly maimed at Dragonstone (don't have the books with me). Anyone think this is a ruse?

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 25 April 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

Anyway, what about Davos? Manderly(?) says he killed him but dif he?

Another good question. I'm on my re-read and will have to chime in about Davos afterwards as my memory is foggy (I read ACOK, ASOS and AFFC once each when they came out).

Davos is definitely still around.

There's just no chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon's parents. If it turns out not to be the case, there's a strong possibility I'll think of it as a retcon that GRRM contrived once he realized how incredibly obvious it was to everyone just to fuck with our heads. The only evidence that points away from Lyanna and Rhaegar is Jon not having the Targaryen eyes/hair, but it could just be that he takes after Lyanna, who is said to have looked like Arya, and Arya is said to look like Jon. And that's not even getting in to the particulars of all the other easter egg hints. Which I won't do because this topic is discussed to the point of complete and utter absurdity/exhaustion at Westeros.

I didn't realize until my last reread of FFC's prologue that the

Spoiler

mystery Alchemist who kills Pate and infiltrates the Maester's Citadel is Jaqen. Very cool. Jaqen is the MAN.

The Hound is a big question mark at this point as well, right? Arya ditches on him in ASoS then in FFC Rorge and company are wearing his helmet. Most think he's dead, but I think Sandor's still kickin' somewhere.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Many think he's thr limping gravrdigger Brienne sees in that monastery she visits in AFFC. Notice how thr abbot says that the Hound is dead, not Sandor Clegane is dead

[QuickTidal]

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

There's just no chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon's parents.

This is one of those things we will have to RAFO...and I hope that Martin will solve it for us at some point.

The Lyanna + Rhaegar theory has the whole romantic tragedy aspect to it. My issue with it being that Catelyn doesn't have nay need to be so mean about Jon if this is the case as Ned didn't cheat and is merely taking care of his sisters child. It also would make Jon not a bastard at all, not to mention put him in line for the throne of the seven kingdoms as a Tary heir...and then you have to think about Ned even ALLOWING Jon to be deemed a bastard, let alone take the black and join the Night Watch. I always thought of Ned as altruistic in his actions and therefore letting his nephew be treated differently by being a bastard not only by others but by his own wife when he isn't one...seems out of character.

Dunno man...

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

There's just no chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon's parents.

This is one of those things we will have to RAFO...and I hope that Martin will solve it for us at some point.

The Lyanna + Rhaegar theory has the whole romantic tragedy aspect to it. My issue with it being that Catelyn doesn't have nay need to be so mean about Jon if this is the case as Ned didn't cheat and is merely taking care of his sisters child. It also would make Jon not a bastard at all, not to mention put him in line for the throne of the seven kingdoms as a Tary heir...and then you have to think about Ned even ALLOWING Jon to be deemed a bastard, let alone take the black and join the Night Watch. I always thought of Ned as altruistic in his actions and therefore letting his nephew be treated differently by being a bastard not only by others but by his own wife when he isn't one...seems out of character.

Dunno man...

Ned made a promise to Lyanna before she died. He has perpetual flashbacks to the moment. What was that promise? To hide the identity of her son by Rhaegar. Ned knows Robert, knows that he has an unhealthy obsession with Targaryens, especially Rhaegar. What do you think Robert would do if he knew that Rhaegar produced a male son off of Lyanna of all people? He would kill the shit out of Jon, that's what he would do. Ned is being as altruistic as he can. Lie to Jon about his heritage and pack him off to take the black, or tell him the truth, risk Robert and all the other faction heads in the Seven Kingdoms finding out, and end up putting not only Jon's life, but Ned's as well in danger? Allowing Jon to be "treated differently be being a bastard" is shitty, sure. But if it's the only way that Jon can have a normal life? Or a life at all? When the alternative is to put him at risk with Robert and make him the most controversial figure in the Seven Kingdoms?

The fact that Jon is Rhaegar's son by a noblewoman is an incredibly, incredibly dangerous, volatile secret. It is totally within Ned's character to go to whatever lengths he has to to keep this information on the down-low, even from his own wife. I'm sure there were times when he was tempted to tell Catelyn just to get her off his ass, in fact he probably wanted nothing MORE than to tell her (one of the few times we see him really close to losing his shit early in the book is when he tells Catelyn never to ask him about Jon's mother.) But telling her would have made her complicit and - in the event that Robert ever found out - likely a victim of Robert's punishment.

Edit: On the subject of the "promise," there's a scene in GoT where Ned's in the dungeon and he has a fever dream where he's promising Lyanna on her death bed. He wakes up from that dream and on the same page he's thinking about how he wishes he could see Jon once more to talk with him. I don't think this is coincidence.

This post has been edited by Neocount Cicero: 26 April 2011 - 08:07 PM

[QuickTidal]

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

Ned knows Robert, knows that he has an unhealthy obsession with Targaryens, especially Rhaegar. What do you think Robert would do if he knew that Rhaegar produced a male son off of Lyanna of all people? He would kill the shit out of Jon, that's what he would do.

See, now I have a different view of that. I think that Ned is well aware of Robert's love of Lyanna and this boy is not only her son, but his best friends nephew to boot...I think that would outweigh any Targaryen anger on Robert's part. Kill the son of your once true love? That's effing cold man. IMHO anyways.

You could be totally right though, I'm just saying we shouldn't discount other theories entirely is all.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 April 2011 - 08:07 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2011 - 08:06 PM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

Ned knows Robert, knows that he has an unhealthy obsession with Targaryens, especially Rhaegar. What do you think Robert would do if he knew that Rhaegar produced a male son off of Lyanna of all people? He would kill the shit out of Jon, that's what he would do.

See, now I have a different view of that. I think that Ned is well aware of Robert's love of Lyanna and this boy is not only her son, but his best friends nephew to boot...I think that would outweigh any Targaryen anger on Robert's part. Kill the son of your once true love? That's effing cold man. IMHO anyways.

You could be totally right though, I'm just saying we shouldn't discount other theories entirely is all.

I tend to agree with you on the first point, but from Ned's POV, in GoT he is consistently disapproving of and mentioning Robert's hatred of Targaryens, and that conflict between them is explored nicely (and I think tellingly) when Robert wants to assassinate Dany and her unborn child and Ned accuses him of obsession and being blinded by rage. We even saw it a bit in the first episode of the TV show with Robert's "In my dreams, I kill him every night." And regardless of how we think Robert might react, you have to take into account Lyanna. It's possible she was convinced Robert would kill Jon even if we as readers disagree. And maybe even Ned disagreed with her. But he did promise, and one thing we can say with certainty, motherfucking Ned Stark is not going to break his promise.

And I agree that we shouldn't discount other theories. I just happen to be kind of a lunatic about this one. (dead horse) <----Me

This post has been edited by Neocount Cicero: 26 April 2011 - 08:15 PM

[QuickTidal]

How about Ned's thoughts in AGOT when he says to himself that "You fathered a bastard"...

[Ceda Cicero]

Hate to be a dick, but gimme some quote fu on that one, Scott. I vaguely recall that line, but I don't remember it being Ned's thinking. Or if it was, I remember it being in a context that didn't necessarily point to him actually being Jon's father.

Tangentially, I didn't mention yet what I think is the biggest weapon in the arsenal of the Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon theory, even though it's a comparatively small detail. In Dany's vision in the House of the Undying in ACoK, she sees a blue rose growing in the ice of the Wall. The blue rose is explicitly and exclusively associated with Lyanna and Lyanna only time and time again. Ned has visions of winter roses at her deathbed, and we know that Rhaegar rode with/used winter roses at the tourney where he crowned Lyanna rather than his own wife.

And of course there's also the issue of why on earth three members of the Kingsguard (including the Lord Commander and Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning) would be guarding the Tower of Joy where Ned found Lyanna dying in a "bed of blood" if not to protect a potential heir to the Iron Throne. It would be highly uncharacteristic of Rhaegar from what we know (especially with some of the character revelations in FFC) to send three of them just to guard his girlfriend/hostage.

This post has been edited by Neocount Cicero: 26 April 2011 - 09:58 PM

[QuickTidal]

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:

Hate to be a dick, but gimme some quote fu on that one, Scott. I vaguely recall that line, but I don't remember it being Ned's thinking. Or if it was, I remember it being in a context that didn't necessarily point to him actually being Jon's father.

Tangentially, I didn't mention yet what I think is the biggest weapon in the arsenal of the Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon theory, even though it's a comparatively small detail. In Dany's vision in the House of the Undying in ACoK, she sees a blue rose growing in the ice of the Wall. The blue rose is explicitly and exclusively associated with Lyanna and Lyanna only time and time again. Ned has visions of winter roses at her deathbed, and we know that Rhaegar rode with/used winter roses at the tourney where he crowned Lyanna rather than his own wife.

And of course there's also the issue of why on earth three members of the Kingsguard (including the Lord Commander and Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning) would be guarding the Tower of Joy where Ned found Lyanna dying in a "bed of blood" if not to protect a potential heir to the Iron Throne. It would be highly uncharacteristic of Rhaegar from what we know (especially with some of the character revelations in FFC) to send three of them just to guard his girlfriend/hostage.

Yeah, I can't back it up right now. I just recall it, and I recall someone bringing it up over at Westeros too in one of the L + R=J threads...that said, I'm not going to troll the book for the quote, so you win man. LOL



I agree that R + L = J makes the most sense and would please endless fans, but Martin may get pissed that people figured out his little mystery and change it.

It's hard to say at this point if the answer one of the biggest mysteries that has such a hardline fanbase who adamantly believe they are right, will turn out to be accurate or if Martin has purposely red herring'ed everyone.

The blue rose in the wall is also mentioned in a story Ygritte tells Jon about a King in the north from a long time ago.

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2011 - 10:44 PM, said:

you win man. LOL

VICTORY!!!!

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