[Kanese S's]

A stick-snare how?


But yeah, as everyone else said, pretty much it's no use being a god if the world gets destroyed, including all your worshipers. All the gods who had been feeding off Kaminsod are now severely weakened, and some are dead, and thus without actually attaining more power, ST and Cots become more powerful relative to all the gods who have just lost a big source of power. And straightens out the pantheon somewhat.

[D'rek]

 Abey1245, on 07 May 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Kind of off-topic but does anyone else think Shadowthrone is a stick-snare now? He practically admits it himself in TCG... (I feel it in my bones (cotillion: I didn't know you had any...) My sticks, then. I feel it in my sticks!) when they talk about how they believe Tavore & co will make it across the glass desert.

If you take everything ST says literally he is about four dozen completely different things by now...

[tiam]

 havenophear, on 25 August 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Still, why the opening with Edgewalker and Cot:

"You can't win."
"That doesn't mean I have to lose!"

Seems like they won though...

 Sinisdar Toste, on 26 August 2011 - 12:09 AM, said:

 havenophear, on 25 August 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Still, why the opening with Edgewalker and Cot:

"You can't win."
"That doesn't mean I have to lose!"

Seems like they won though...

won what? the power, the prize, the big score, it all got sucked away into a jade statue.

maybe you could say they won freedom from the CG's incessant chaos, but that was something the world had brought on itself.

The Edgewalker quote of 'even if you suceed beyond all measure they will still speak of your failure' line bugged me aswell and I think it goes like this.

TCG was being used as a power source for the gods that chained him. They were,and had been since the first chaining, using him as a chained elemental power, a substantial power up. Now it is likely that ST, having amassed alot of of throne (Imass Shadow) would want in on this game. However as others have sad they are new, much newer then the realm they represent and newer than their rival gods. They could not force them to share such power. So what did they do? They freed TCG and levelled the playing field again. This saved the world but also took the ace in the whole away from the more established gods. However, in essence, they still failed. They could not impose impose themselves onto the other gods to get in on draining TCG of his power so they 'changed the game', which was a massive theme of the series, by making sure no one could use him. So the other gods will note that ST failed to get in on the current game so simply changed it.

Thats one of the reasons the gods didnt want TCG into the Pantheon. As Paran says in MOI TCG is simply kicking the 'game board' because the other gods wont let him play and by allowing him to play they allowed him an even chance which the gods didnt want to give him, though the benefit was it bound him to their game.

As for the nature of the Pantheon. The Nameless Ones and the Jhistarri cult of god chaining, that Mallick Rel was a part of, were exterminated by ST while he was Emperor. He was disgused by their cult in chaining gods however the gods themselves were no bette, interfering and ruining mortal lives for petty causes esp. in war. So ST and the events of TCG book marks the end of the gods of war, war now being in the hands of mortals and hence the cyclical nature of the book. In the GOTM prologue WJ says (doesnt say actually but its implied) The world doesnt need another soldier but it ofcourse it will. At the end of TCG Fiddler states that the lad should join the army as the world will always need soldiers. The Perish plotline was also about this to an extent but tbh I found that section incredibly muddled. We also see the added responsibility of gods through the actions of others though no doubt ST manipulated this to be so. For example the Parans seething rage at Poliel taking credit for every soldier that fights of infection on his own strength and focing her to heal the Host on 7c. It was a running theme throughout that power is now in the nads of mortals but only Krul seems to recognise this as early as GOTM. Everyone else is either trying to keep what theyve got in terms of the newer gods, get what they once had in terms of the EG or change the game completely either because theyve tired of it (Hood) or theyre disgusted by it (ST possibly Rake who hates the idea of godhood throughout the books)

I actually have a much wider theory about this ill get round to posting soon enough but ill say this

I actually think the chainings were more of a negotiation. They were to check the bindings of TCG but they are also a meeting place were the balance of power was discussed and reflected by what they could take from TCG. To me it explains why Cotillion was at the last chaining and why there was so many chainings in the first place. These chainings dont seem to stop him gaining worshippers, as we see TCG pilgrim ships landing on the southern coast of genabackis, and also his netherworlds still wanders so I believe the chainings were more than simply checking the bindings.

[worry]

"...power is now in the nads of mortals..." -- tiam, May 2012

[Abey1245]

If he has no bones, he has no "physical" body... after the comment alluding to being made of sticks, it made me think of Talamandas and Hairlock. Why not take SE literally? He would not put a comment like that for no reason whatsoever, they tend to hint at some hidden mystery. QB has dolls of various people including Bottle. Perhaps ST prepared ahead of time for the event of the loss of his body when Laseen kills him so he can ascend. I know, I'm stretching it, lol!! But that is how I understood SE's message during my 2nd reading of TCG.

[amphibian]

I am editing your post to make more sense:

 Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 08 May 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

The Edgewalker quote of 'even if you suceed beyond all measure they will still speak of your failure' line bugged me as well and I think it goes like this.

Kaminsod was being used as a power source for the gods that chained him. They were, and had been since the first chaining, using him as a chained elemental power, a substantial power-up. Now it is likely that Ammanas, having amassed a lot of thrones (Imass, Shadow) would want in on this game. However as others have sad they are new, much newer then the realm they represent and newer than their rival gods. Ammanas and Cotillon could not force the other gods to share such power with them.

So what did Ammanas and Cotillon do? They freed Kaminsod and upset the gameboard. This saved the world from future chain-breaking attempts/wars among mortals and gods created and run by Kaminsod, but also took the ace in the hole away from the more established gods. However, in essence, they still failed.

They could not beat the other gods in the game of draining TCG of his power - so they blew up the game and started a new one without a chained Kaminsod. This changing of the game was driven by Ammanas, Cotillon, Hood, Anomander Rake, Tavore, K'rul, Fener and Kaminsod. However, Hood, Rake and Fener died. Kaminsod went free and with him went the power the other gods leeched. Shadowthrone and Cotillon lost the Azath they planted at the gate to Starvald Demelain and appeared to gain nothing but the destruction of the various Malazan armies in a mutual massacre with the Watered, human slaves and the true Forkrul Assail. Thus, with no visibly concrete gains given to Ammanas and Cotillon and the loss of the power source (the current games), the (idiotic) other gods will believe that Ammanas and Cotillon failed in their game play.

The Nameless Ones and the Jhistal cult of god chaining that Mallick Rel was a part of were hunted and driven deep underground by Ammanas while he was Emperor. He was disgusted by the continuance of the gods' game, interfering and ruining mortal lives for petty causes especially in war and more disgusted by the willing mortal participation and assistance in such games.

The game Ammanas and Cotillon played had a side effect of killing most of the gods of war (Fener, Treach, one of the Wolves of War, the old bear god Paran threw into the plains outside Darujhistan). The war gods have been greatly reduced or humbled and more power is now accumulated in the NADS of mortals worldwide.

In the GoTM prologue, Whiskeyjack says to young Paran:

Quote

Ganoes shrugged. 'It's said [Dassem Ultor] betrayed a god.'
Finally the man faced him. His face was scarred, and something that might have been a burn marred his jaw and left cheek. For all that, he looked young for a commander. 'Heed the lesson there, son.'
'What lesson?'
'Every decision you make can change the world. The best life is the one the gods don't notice. You want to live free, boy, live quietly.'
'I want to be a soldier. A hero.'
'You'll grow out of it.'

[...]

'One day I'll be a soldier,' Ganoes said.
The man grunted. 'Only if you fail at all else, son. Taking up the sword is the last act of desperate men. Mark my words and find yourself a more worthy dream.'
Ganoes scowled. 'You're not like the other soldiers I've talked to. You sound more like my father.'
'But I'm not your father,' the man growled.
'The world,' Ganoes said, 'doesn't need another Izrine merchant.' The commander's eyes narrowed, gauging. He opened his mouth to make the obvious reply, then shut it again.

At the end of TCG, Fiddler talks to a boy on a pier in Malaz City:

Quote

The boy snorted. He was always getting advice. 'I won't be like you, old man. I'm going to be a soldier when I grow up. I'm going to leave this place. For ever. A soldier, fighting wars and getting rich and fighting and saving people and all that!'

The old man seemed about to say one thing, stopped, and instead said 'Well, the world always needs more soldiers.'

The boy counted this as a victory, the first of what he knew would be a lifetime of victories. When he was grown up. And famous. [...]

We also see the incredible shittiness of the current crop of gods throughout the books. For example, Ganoes Paran's seething rage at Poliel taking credit for every soldier that survived the plague infections on their own led to him forcing her to heal the Host. Other similar events of the gods not giving one fig for mortals, despite the tribute and worship given to them by the mortals was a running theme throughout the books. What is so odd about this is that the power is truly in the NADS of mortals, but only K'rul seems to recognise this as early as GoTM. Everyone else is either trying to keep what they've got in terms of the newer gods, get what they once had in terms of the Elder Gods or the older gods, or to change the game completely either because they've tired of it (Hood/Kaminsod/) or they're disgusted by it and want true change (Ammanas/possibly Rake, as he hates the idea of assuming godhood throughout the books)

The lines that need further extrapolation and explanation from you are these:

"The Perish plotline was also about this to an extent, but to be honest, I found that section incredibly muddled."

I do not believe that the Perish plotline was about needing more soldiers. That was much more of a one time much-needed boost to Tavore's army and cause going awry because the soldiers were so withdrawn into their screwed up heads that they could not trust Krughava and by extension, Tavore, to lead them in the correct way. Soldiers lose faith in their leaders and not all stick until taken down like Blistig. Some big groups just defect to the other side and war away (much like the Black Company did early on in the books).

I also have no idea what you are saying at the end about the chainings being perceived as "checking the bindings". They were the repeated subjugations of Kaminsod, a powerful god not supposed to be there, by other gods and ascendants in a manner which allowed several gods and ascendants to draw power from Kaminsod. Of course there were ongoing negotiations and jockeying - that's what the weird ghostly Place of the Gods is all about. The chainings were the old game being played to their conclusions and started anew. Ammanas and Cotillon smashed the game and forced an entirely new set of rules and freedoms upon the entirety of Wu.

[Bonecaster]

I quoted this before, but it seems relevant here.


From the last few pages of Chapter 12 of The Bonehunters:

Quote

'Shadowthrone, and I,' he looked up, then half-shrugged, 'our path to ascendancy was through the Houses of the Azath. There were years - a good number of them - in which neither I nor the man who at that time was known as Emperor Kellanved were to be found anywhere within the Malazan empire. For we had begun another quest, a bolder gambit.' Firelight gleamed in his dark eyes. 'We set out to map the Azath. Every House, across this entire realm. We set out to master its power-'

'But that is not possible,' Mappo said. 'You failed - you cannot have done otherwise, else you both would now be far more than gods-'

'True enough, as far as it goes.' He studied the tea in the clay cup nestled in the bowl of his hands. 'Certain realizations came to us, however, earned from hard experience and somewhat unrelenting diligence. The first was this: our quest would demand far more than a single, mortal lifespan. The other realizations - well, perhaps I had best leave those for another night, another time. In any case, in comprehending that such a gambit would enforce upon us demands we could not withstand - not as emperor and master assassin, that is - it proved necessary to make use of what we had learned to date.'

'To make yourselves gods.'

'Yes.'

Here's how it looks to me... They decided to go for something even cooler than the Malazan Empire. Mapping the Azath Houses, and mastering their power. Becoming "far more than gods." Metagods? As they were going about this gambit, they realized they couldn't accomplish it as mortal humans. So they used what they had learned so far to become gods, so that they could accomplish it. THIS is what they're up to, in the long run. Is it what they're up to at all times? Maybe. Maybe we just can't see how various things they've done, or had done for them, will advance this gambit. Maybe the things said about TCG being a power source for the other gods was holding them back. One of those "realizations". So resolving that was removing an impediment to their quest.

And maybe some things they've done weren't for this end at all. They might have other fun things they want to accomplish along the way. They don't need to rush so much, now that they're potentially immortal.

[Kanese S's]

Yes. I've said before that I see no reason why Shadowthrone and Cotillion can't have several schemes all going at once.

[Sinisdar Toste]

So what we're looking at is this:

Step 1: Create mortal empire that churns out badasses and badass armies. lead it to glory then die and become gods.

Step 2: Using the mortal servants you knew while living, continue scheming in both realms, mortal and divine, to remove the biggest obstacle to the overall goal.

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Profit!

seems simple enough to me!

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 09 May 2012 - 11:09 PM

[Bonecaster]

I suspect they had only planned the empire. I doubt they knew for sure they'd even be able to get into the Azaths, much less what would be revealed to them once they were in. My guess is that, once they understood what they had stumbled on, they said, "Malazan, Schmalazan! Let's map these babies, and gain power beyond the gods!"


Thanks for the rep, Kanese.

[tiam]

Amph

Perish Plotline- There is speculation at the end that the mortals army of the Wolves of Winter would always be needed. As in they could not be discarded after the FA have cleansed the world as they would always be needed to re cleanse it in favour of the Wolves, if that makes sense. What I mean was it was that the Perish plotline was about the changing role of mortals in relation to the gods. It was slightly different than armies simply being manipulated by the gods, per my FIddler quote at the end in relation to GOTM, but as I say related somewhat with the Perish acknowledging that they themselves would be needed despite being human, thus part of the problem. Essentially they were part ofthe changing game.

Chainings- We have no idea about any actual events to do with the chainings so you saying that it wasnt 'checking the bindings' and that it was 'repeated subjugations' isnt really changing anything. I ofc meant checking the bindings figuratively and adding any layers of defense rather than simply checking. The point I was making is one of negotiations reflecting the balance of power. I dont think it has anything to do with the Place of the Gods which is simply different aspects of certain gods that have been discarded i.e. Dassem may have discarded his arrogance when he broke his vows to Hood. I wouldnt say that has anything to do with TCG that I cant remember if anything is mentioned in that section.

[D'rek]

 Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 11 May 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Perish Plotline- There is speculation at the end that the mortals army of the Wolves of Winter would always be needed. As in they could not be discarded after the FA have cleansed the world as they would always be needed to re cleanse it in favour of the Wolves, if that makes sense. What I mean was it was that the Perish plotline was about the changing role of mortals in relation to the gods. It was slightly different than armies simply being manipulated by the gods, per my FIddler quote at the end in relation to GOTM, but as I say related somewhat with the Perish acknowledging that they themselves would be needed despite being human, thus part of the problem. Essentially they were part ofthe changing game.

Agree somewhat.

The "big thing" with the Perish conflict in TCG (and earlier but it's revealed in TCG) is that the Wolves are bloodthirstiy and want to kill more or less all sentients. It's not a reasonable position to take, and one that's hard for their human servants to empathize with, but most of the Perish soldiers aren't in such close communication with their gods. Krughava, being the Mortal Sword, leader of the human army and close to her gods, is trying to temper her own gods' will. It's a great case of mortals trying, but failing, to shape their gods, and when Setoc, a human with no problems following the Wolves' will, comes along it gets turbulent.

 Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 11 May 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Chainings- We have no idea about any actual events to do with the chainings so you saying that it wasnt 'checking the bindings' and that it was 'repeated subjugations' isnt really changing anything. I ofc meant checking the bindings figuratively and adding any layers of defense rather than simply checking. The point I was making is one of negotiations reflecting the balance of power. I dont think it has anything to do with the Place of the Gods which is simply different aspects of certain gods that have been discarded i.e. Dassem may have discarded his arrogance when he broke his vows to Hood. I wouldnt say that has anything to do with TCG that I cant remember if anything is mentioned in that section.

My pet theory is that each Chaining is for different pieces of the Crippled God. When they did the first Chaining they gathered all the pieces they could, and then each time they found more they would do another Chaining to suck the power out of that piece as well. And this pattern would have kept on going until they found all the pieces (including some main piece the CG uses for his usual manifestation, plus the three of the Blessed Lady and whichever others might be out there).

[tiam]

Perish- Yes at the very end they accept that, despite the Wolves wanting and end to all sentient life as you say' they will always be necessary to maintain that balance. Its sort of a compromise. But ofc with one of the Wolves potentially dead who knows. I was just geting at this compromise represents a change and thus fits with the thematic overview of changing relations.

Chainings- The concept of finding new pieces leading to new changes is likely a sound one. I dont know how long youve had this theory but I suppose it only became tangible after a SW read where we discover pieces of TCG can become sentient entities in there own right, apart from the usual wandering CG manifestation we see from MOI onwards. I suppose this theory leads on.

Is it simply the entity that finds the TCG pieces that drains (or simply has the monopoly of) that piece of TCG and has there been parts of history that have led to almost a TCG gold rush where ascendents have clustered round areas of potential? Its plausible. It could even be, as I said above, the same entities keep finding them and negotiate for the privilege of using this power. I tend to favour the second option of negotiation simply because of the information we have of alot of people being present at the chainings, such as Feners Mortal Sword, Destriant and others. However its possible a mix of both options is right.

For example, in MOI when Lady Envy visits Callows and Krul claims that he will no longer brook her lack of interest in events she muses that she may be to blame for the loss of Dassem Ultor. Now this is pure speculation but it could be that Dassem leaving Hood weakened his position at the last chaining and thus left the balance of power in the favour of another, thus allowing this other to use that power for their own personal gain. It is even possible that Hood, Rake and the other allies mentioned by Hood to Shurq Elalle, including Krul, were gathering the remains of TCG so they could not be used for personal ascendent ambition.

I look forward to learning more about the chainings and hope we see one. Maybe in ICEs new book in a Kallor flashback

[worry]

Oh yah, I'd love to see at least one chaining too. Imagine the possibilities for tense semi-hostile banter!

[kcf]

I'll be pretty simple with my thoughts as I haven't taken the time to work out the details.

But, They are not done, ST and Cot have much to do still and this one only the biggest step along the way. Think meta as has already been mentioned in this thread. They are more than Gods, they are the creators - literally, as ST is ICE and Cot is SE. And look at the point of the series - it's a heroes journey, a humanistic journey into what is humanity, all of its ugly truths, yet in the end it's hopefull that the best of humanity can chart a path forward. This is what ST and Cot are about - finding the best in humanity and putting in charge. And they will do anything to achieve it (kind of ironic, that, but it's appropriate). To do this they have to identify the best in humanity - they have to bring out the best in humanity (I use the term humanity, though in the case of this series, it's not necessarily species specific, but a broader concept of moral good). It turns out that it's a very difficult and painful process to bring out the best. At they same time they have to clear the way of what would get in the way of their idea - basically the existing powers (gods and ascendents). Not all, but most.

So, the series changed the game, it brought gods to more or less equal footing and allowed ST and Cot to gain relative power. It also happened to kill a few along the way. Now that the game is changed, it's time for them to win the game they really want to win. So, more gods will be killed. Lots more. Power will be further concentrated. And eventually, if they are successful, it will be controlled by the best of humanity. And that could very well mean the eventual elimantion of all gods - including ST and Cot.

We'll see how it goes - I see two potentials. First (and most likely) an open ending that has the elimination of most gods, and a huge power vacuum. The tiles have been laid for the best of humanity to hopefully take things in the best direction. But this is not shown and there is plenty of doubt.

Second - all gods are dead, including ST and Cot. There is a complete blank slate. Probably not even room for gods as they were known. Maybe even no warrens. conversly - all gods are killed and ST and Cot refuse the final step and take over (not very likely, but possible).

I think the first is more likely, simply because there is another trilogy coming from Erikson. And I think that having no gods as part of the trilogy would be kind of boring and I don't think SE will go there. But I could be wrong.

One thing this idea doesn't really account for is the whole balance between light and dark that is a prevailing theme through the series.

[Migol]

Just a note: if mastering the Azath is such a huge deal...where does that place Gothos on the scouter reading? Because he's not only part of their system, he was in charge of the guy -making them-