[wabus44]

OK, this is my first post here although I have been lurking for awhile. Anyways, while I thoroughly enjoyed the series, I still have problems with the compassion generated for the Crippled God. Maybe I am way off base (and I did read Memories of Ice before Deadhouse Gates skewing my early understanding of things) but the Crippled God was behind that horror. If I am not mistaken he was also behind the epidemic in the Seven Cities which killed off large swathes of the population. Stonewileder Spoiler ahead







It is also strange that he was also behind the deception of the Wall as well. I am sure some of the keener sparks on here have an explanation for this compassion we are supposed to sympathize with, but I for one found it kinda upsetting.

[SpectreofEschaton]

Well, look at it this way.

Kaminsod was a god in his own alien realm (and whether that was another Warren world or whatever, or a totally different fantasy setting, we don't know), and by all accounts, a fairly decent god as far as gods go.

Then, one day, a huge rent opens up in his world and, curious, he checks it out, only to fall into the trap of mages who summoned him to destroy Kallor.

So, Kaminsod is forcibly pulled through the rent, and in his fall, he's torn into thousands of pieces and burned alive, then crashes into Wu, enduring and causing the devastation of several continents.

After the dust settles, the gods of that age arrive and chain him, refusing to let him heal and return to his world, forcing his worshipers to live in a world without a god. They keep him in constant agony and have since been using him as some kind of cosmic battery to increase their own power.

This goes on for... something like 150,000 years, I believe. This poor god, who never did anything wrong, has had to endure eons of anguish at the behest of the cruel and capricious gods of Wu. And it drives him mad.

So, yes, he lashes out. He tries to make them suffer. It's the only thing left to him.

And, yes, the mortals who get caught up in his assaults didn't deserve their fate, they had no hand in his torment, but... don't blame him; blame the gods and ascendants who forced him to that extremity. They (the mortals) were never his target, anyway, he was trying to reach their gods through them.

The compassion comes from the fact that Kaminsod did nothing to deserve any of what happened to him, and while his actions were abominable, they were the direct result of millennia of abuse and the refusal of... compassion.

Think about it, what kind of person not only does nothing to help someone in that much pain, but actually actively seeks to increase it and use it to their own advantage?

[worry]

Well, his was not the original sin. Nor was he exactly himself, apparently, when everything he did went down. He was at least in part driven insane. On another note, he had worshipers and responsibilities on his own world...why shouldn't he trade the lives of the denizens of the Malazan-world for his own people, when his loyalty naturally lies with them? There's also the golden rule, and the fact that you probably shouldn't go about defeating monsters by allowing yourself to become just like them. Hold yourself to a higher standard.

All that said, I'm not sure compassion was a necessary component for many of the actors here. ST and Cot's goals could have been met this way with or without the added factor of sympathy for Kaminsod. They wanted to deprive the tyrants of that power boost, and releasing Kam from the world is one good way to make sure that happens.

[wabus44]

SpectreofEschaton, on 21 March 2011 - 03:21 AM, said:

Well, look at it this way.

Kaminsod was a god in his own alien realm (and whether that was another Warren world or whatever, or a totally different fantasy setting, we don't know), and by all accounts, a fairly decent god as far as gods go.

Then, one day, a huge rent opens up in his world and, curious, he checks it out, only to fall into the trap of mages who summoned him to destroy Kallor.

So, Kaminsod is forcibly pulled through the rent, and in his fall, he's torn into thousands of pieces and burned alive, then crashes into Wu, enduring and causing the devastation of several continents.

After the dust settles, the gods of that age arrive and chain him, refusing to let him heal and return to his world, forcing his worshipers to live in a world without a god. They keep him in constant agony and have since been using him as some kind of cosmic battery to increase their own power.

This goes on for... something like 150,000 years, I believe. This poor god, who never did anything wrong, has had to endure eons of anguish at the behest of the cruel and capricious gods of Wu. And it drives him mad.

So, yes, he lashes out. He tries to make them suffer. It's the only thing left to him.

And, yes, the mortals who get caught up in his assaults didn't deserve their fate, they had no hand in his torment, but... don't blame him; blame the gods and ascendants who forced him to that extremity. They (the mortals) were never his target, anyway, he was trying to reach their gods through them.

The compassion comes from the fact that Kaminsod did nothing to deserve any of what happened to him, and while his actions were abominable, they were the direct result of millennia of abuse and the refusal of... compassion.

Think about it, what kind of person not only does nothing to help someone in that much pain, but actually actively seeks to increase it and use it to their own advantage?

Well, I get all of your points and I don't disagree with them. That is certainly, or so it seems, what the author seems to be conveying. It is the anomaly of fighting the sysptoms of his reaching out, than engaging in a plan to free him spearheaded by ST that seems out of kilter. For some reason, I also keep thinking of when Mael beats him on that island shard. It is not the fact that the compassion was there that bothers me so much as the ommission of that sympathy being evident in the previous books, at least not overtly. As for Stonewielder...well, it might explain the presence of one character among the Malazans. The stormriders were after the pieces of the Crippled God, for what purpose we did not know. Perhaps we do now.

[SpectreofEschaton]

Is it not possible for Kaminsod to have different aspects, as well? Look at Mael: bloodthirsty god of the seas and destroyer of ships, and... humble manservant and defender of Lether. Perhaps the part of the Crippled God that was acting out was a separate part of his persona, one that channeled all that agony into rage and lashed out with it at whatever was closest at hand.

Just a thought. I'll admit, his efforts seem a little too coordinated to be the product of a raving lunatic.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the shape of the pannion domin had nothing to do with the crippled god. he only supplied power. pannion made the empire in his own image, which was actually thanks to kilava sending him into the rent at morn.

you could say that he was using the entire domin as a feint to discover the forces arrayed 'against' him, but even then, how the pannion domin operated is the result of kilava's misguided kindness.

hows that for a mindfuck?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 21 March 2011 - 04:14 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

One of themes of the series is the relationship between a god and his worshipers. While the early books generally denote mortals doing things because of their god's desires, as the series progresses, we see more and more of gods being forced to make decisions because of what their followers choose.

Pannion visited upon the world his pain, much like Kaminsod does through some of his actions.

[Gothos]

I'm pretty sure that Kaminsod refer to the time before all this started "when I was nothing but pain" or something similar. As I see it, he's seen nothing but cruelty and contempt from the world for thousand of years. Only recently (I think, circa HoC/Bonehunters) has anyone come to aid him. Before, all he did was lashing out, sharing his pain with the world. Now, I think he was humbled by those who would risk everything to send him home. Which, let's be honest here, was indeed the right thing to do.

[flea]

I have to admit that I've been having some problems with Kaminsod too. Some of the plots make a lot of sense to me -- gods and humans have been using him, and others use him. In MoI, there is an insane matron and one seriously bitter and somewhat crazy Jaghut. I am sure Kaminsod sees them as kindred spirits, as beings who have also been unjustly used.

I find it harder to understand with some of the other plots. What does he really want with the Edur? I understand that an eventually unbeatable Rhuland or Karsa can aid him, perhaps even free him. What about the Whirlwind? What about that scum of a mage that Karsa castrates in House of Chains? Or the priest in TtH that touches people and gives them gangrene? I guess they are individuals using the god for their own perverse purposes, but to what extent does Kaminsod cooperate?

I guess I am answering my own questions.

I feel a bit cheated since I assume that Quick Ben and Tavore have known for a long time (how long, exactly?) what was up with Kaminsod.

[Abyss]

SpectreofEschaton, on 21 March 2011 - 03:21 AM, said:

Well, look at it this way...., what kind of person not only does nothing to help someone in that much pain, but actually actively seeks to increase it and use it to their own advantage?

Nicely put, rep'd accordingly.

SpectreofEschaton, on 21 March 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

..., his efforts seem a little too coordinated to be the product of a raving lunatic.

which is the other side of the coin.

Sinisdar Toste, on 21 March 2011 - 04:11 AM, said:

the shape of the pannion domin had nothing to do with the crippled god. he only supplied power. pannion made the empire in his own image, which was actually thanks to kilava sending him into the rent at morn.

you could say that he was using the entire domin as a feint to discover the forces arrayed 'against' him, but even then, how the pannion domin operated is the result of kilava's misguided kindness.

hows that for a mindfuck?

A little of both sides there. plus consider that ultimately QB and Paran SAVE the Pannion Seer and use him to slow the CG's infection of Burn.



But come at it from a different direction... the CG knowingly did everything he's accused of.
Was he bugnuts at the time? Oh yeah. Body shredded powers drained brain fucked and tied up just for good measure.
Does that excuse everything he did? Not really, since he seems to have retained at least some level of independence and power, arguably a lot.
Was that the Gods' faults? Well, yes, theirs and everyone else at the Chainings, which, btw, includes Rake and his Andii, ST/Cots and Hood... yes, the primary ascendent players in releasing the CG were at the last party to Chain him. Considering that particular Chaining went wrong (the whole Dassem's daughter thing), that may have been the impetus for the plans that led to freeing CG in TCG.

AFter the Fall, the various gods and co had Kaminsod, a broken, insane with pain god too powerful to let loose. AND too powerful to kill, just for good measure. And presumably they couldn't send him home. Remember his worshippers weren't trawling through the sky at the time.

So what do you do with him?

Heal him? Apparently not an option.
Gather up all his broken parts and restore him? Bad call, if you end up with a broken and still nuts uber-god, now with MORE power.
Try harder to kill him? Difficult, and likely to seriously weaken whoever tries it, assuming they suceed, leaving them vulnerable. good luck finding an ascendent ready to do that.

So, neutralize him. Chain him up and restrain his power. Except for those bits that leak out. We can USE those.

Fastforward a few millenia, and oh, look, he's not very neutralized.

So now you have an enslaved God, too powerful to kill, being perpetually tortured and used as a power source, whose going to continue to do nasty things to the world.

How do you stop him?

Two options - kill him or save him.

And killing him is the asshole's route and likely to go horribly wrong or someone would have done it already. So...

[Ceda Cicero]

Abyss, on 22 March 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

SpectreofEschaton, on 21 March 2011 - 03:21 AM, said:

Well, look at it this way...., what kind of person not only does nothing to help someone in that much pain, but actually actively seeks to increase it and use it to their own advantage?

Nicely put, rep'd accordingly.

SpectreofEschaton, on 21 March 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

..., his efforts seem a little too coordinated to be the product of a raving lunatic.

which is the other side of the coin.

Sinisdar Toste, on 21 March 2011 - 04:11 AM, said:

the shape of the pannion domin had nothing to do with the crippled god. he only supplied power. pannion made the empire in his own image, which was actually thanks to kilava sending him into the rent at morn.

you could say that he was using the entire domin as a feint to discover the forces arrayed 'against' him, but even then, how the pannion domin operated is the result of kilava's misguided kindness.

hows that for a mindfuck?

A little of both sides there. plus consider that ultimately QB and Paran SAVE the Pannion Seer and use him to slow the CG's infection of Burn.



But come at it from a different direction... the CG knowingly did everything he's accused of.
Was he bugnuts at the time? Oh yeah. Body shredded powers drained brain fucked and tied up just for good measure.
Does that excuse everything he did? Not really, since he seems to have retained at least some level of independence and power, arguably a lot.
Was that the Gods' faults? Well, yes, theirs and everyone else at the Chainings, which, btw, includes Rake and his Andii, ST/Cots and Hood... yes, the primary ascendent players in releasing the CG were at the last party to Chain him. Considering that particular Chaining went wrong (the whole Dassem's daughter thing), that may have been the impetus for the plans that led to freeing CG in TCG.

AFter the Fall, the various gods and co had Kaminsod, a broken, insane with pain god too powerful to let loose. AND too powerful to kill, just for good measure. And presumably they couldn't send him home. Remember his worshippers weren't trawling through the sky at the time.

So what do you do with him?

Heal him? Apparently not an option.
Gather up all his broken parts and restore him? Bad call, if you end up with a broken and still nuts uber-god, now with MORE power.
Try harder to kill him? Difficult, and likely to seriously weaken whoever tries it, assuming they suceed, leaving them vulnerable. good luck finding an ascendent ready to do that.

So, neutralize him. Chain him up and restrain his power. Except for those bits that leak out. We can USE those.

Fastforward a few millenia, and oh, look, he's not very neutralized.

So now you have an enslaved God, too powerful to kill, being perpetually tortured and used as a power source, whose going to continue to do nasty things to the world.

How do you stop him?

Two options - kill him or save him.

And killing him is the asshole's route and likely to go horribly wrong or someone would have done it already. So...

Way to break it down, Abyss. Have rep.

Possibly off topic, but I'd be interested to construct a rough timeline () when I'm a little more with it and try to speculate when a lot of the planning that we infer took place off-screen happened. For example if we determine that Tavore was working in tandem with ST and Cots, how and when was contact established (and wouldn't you LOVE to have been a fly on the wall.) I guess Tavore might not be the best example, though, because she tells Lostara (?IIRC) that she was set on her course "the day House Paran lost it's son." Which would, by the way, make for another interesting convo I haven't seen yet. What did she mean by that? Most likely the day that she thought he was dead, but then as tragic as it might have been, what about Paran's reported death would set Tavore on her trajectory? She could also be referring to when Ganoes forfeited a career in Unta and joined the army - perhaps Ganoes was originally meant to be in her place as Adjunct, but he got swept up in his own destiny. (Unlikely, I know.)

ANYWAY I got sidetracked. Like I said, would love to imagine when some of the off screen brainstorming took place. Rake with ST/Cots primarily. I imagine they hooked up with Rake shortly after MoI when he settled in Black Coral - would be the best all around fit, and it wouldn't contradict their oppositional relationship earlier in GotM.

This post has been edited by Cicero: 22 March 2011 - 10:34 PM

[tiam]

worrywort, on 21 March 2011 - 03:34 AM, said:

Well, his was not the original sin. Nor was he exactly himself, apparently, when everything he did went down. He was at least in part driven insane. On another note, he had worshipers and responsibilities on his own world...why shouldn't he trade the lives of the denizens of the Malazan-world for his own people, when his loyalty naturally lies with them? There's also the golden rule, and the fact that you probably shouldn't go about defeating monsters by allowing yourself to become just like them. Hold yourself to a higher standard.

All that said, I'm not sure compassion was a necessary component for many of the actors here. ST and Cot's goals could have been met this way with or without the added factor of sympathy for Kaminsod. They wanted to deprive the tyrants of that power boost, and releasing Kam from the world is one good way to make sure that happens.

To derail the thread a bit here- Cotillion and ST to deprive the other gods of a power boost. Could that not refer then to the success and failure speech Edgewalker gives in the opening of the book. So Cotillion suceeds deprives the other (probably older) gods of that power boost but its still a failure because ST and Cotillion could not find a way to usurp that power as they had been doing with everything else like the throne of Shadow First throne Etc. It does fit fairly well

Also the reason why I think empathy for TCG was on the cards was up until TCG he was a bit of a black villain when we know Erikson only works in shades of grey.

[worry]

Indeed. In their bloody, villainous hearts they would consider ST and Cot's good deed to be foolish at best, and -- cynically -- a failure. These are the shades we see at the eternal Fall. Gods are to mortal souls what vultures are to battlefields.