[Abyss]

Now that's an interesting point. it certainly seems as tho Tiam had an earlier form and a later one that was this massive five headed dragon mash-up, but between all the people sexing her, drinking her blood or resembling her i think the gestalt form came later, or is just one way she can manifest of many.

Plus, as with the 'I am Burn!' thing back in DoD, it is possible that Olar Ethil lies, is nuts, or has a very creative imagination. Add that one to the 'well never know' list.

[tiam]

 Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Now that's an interesting point. it certainly seems as tho Tiam had an earlier form and a later one that was this massive five headed dragon mash-up, but between all the people sexing her, drinking her blood or resembling her i think the gestalt form came later, or is just one way she can manifest of many.

Plus, as with the 'I am Burn!' thing back in DoD, it is possible that Olar Ethil lies, is nuts, or has a very creative imagination. Add that one to the 'well never know' list.

Actually if Tiam had to be killed for a few people to drink Tiams blood, in a specific Tiam as a dragon sense not all dragons etc, it makes sense for her to have an earlier form. In fact that 5 headed form was a consequence of ALL the dragons being there from SD. In fact id go as far to say that those drank from the original Tiam are the Ancients allowing them to supercede 'lesser' Tiam blood such as kessobahn Liosan. That might explain their dominance. If it was Rake that killed the original Tiam and the ancients drank from her, Olar Ethil could simply have been the first explaining her giant size in comparison to other soletaken and also explaining her undead twin to Tiam comment given that its tiams earlier form.

In fact could Olar Ethil have drank so much that it legitimitely adds her to that list of dragons we have in MT. Shes added as alomost as an afterthought which may suggest its becasue shes not a legitimate spawn of Tiam but has so much inside her that shes considered one of the purest Elient.

Then again she is batshit crazy

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 Clockwork Apt, on 09 March 2011 - 04:41 AM, said:

I'm honestly not sure he turned into a dragon (all though he appears in the draconic tree) What people see as he shifts is not described as a dragon. It is more like he cloaks himself in darkness and manifests wings. I also wonder what was up with his sword.

That's Ublala describing it when he goes to absorb the Jade Giant. However when he attacks Killy, she does punch a scaled chest or something, so there must also be a physical form.

Also it seemed that even if she hadn't worn herself with the wards she would have run anyway. It's pretty much clear that Draconus was the biggest badass in Elder Times and in one of Sandalath's reminiscences in Karkanas it's implied that not many believed Rake could manage to kill Draconus.

[Steve Halter]

 worrywort, on 11 March 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:

"Draconus, blood of Tiam!" is a line in Anomandaris though. (MOI Ch. 4 opening)

Good catch. Although, of course, Fisher could have been mistaken or using poetic license.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Kallor also calls him "of Tiam's brood" in MoI prologue.

[Steve Halter]

 Bauchelain the Evil, on 11 March 2011 - 09:11 PM, said:

Kallor also calls him "of Tiam's brood" in MoI prologue.

Actually, Kallor says:
Oh yes, I knew you were coming. Draconus, of Tiams kin.

The word kin is very interesting as it implies related to rather than descended from.

[worry]

The line between Elemental and Elder God is a tricky one we just don't know enough about. If I remember correctly, from different perspectives, Mother Dark either created the Elementals out of chaos and they were her true first children, and that may or may not be apocrphyal. On the other hand, MD and FL may be two primary Elementals among several sets of peers (life, death, etc.). And there's an uncertainty if even the Elder Gods took true, terrestrial shape only after being worshipped. For instance, perhaps the Elemental that would become Mael existed before intelligent mortals, but Mael himself came into being only afterward. So they're the same being, but different in the way an adult is from a baby.

This is only relevant I guess insofar as Draconus and K'rul and Nightchill are all siblings, and at least Draconus is the kin of Tiam. But as EGs they are Elementals first -- perhaps during the time of wandering -- and if they were vague, rougher shapings of chaos at that time it would make sense they were kin of Tiam. But in that light, all life -- or all matter? -- is shaped chaos, and everything in existence is kin of Tiam, but you could say the more shaped it is, the more distant the relationship. I guess it might be helpful to know just how old Anomander is, and how old the mortal world is. At least it's confirmed that Drac is MD's first boyfriend, and FL basically cuckolded him.

[Steve Halter]

Very true. Hopefully we'll find out more about the beginnings and EG in the Kharkanas novels.

[Aptorian]

 worrywort, on 11 March 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

The line between Elemental and Elder God is a tricky one we just don't know enough about. If I remember correctly, from different perspectives, Mother Dark either created the Elementals out of chaos and they were her true first children, and that may or may not be apocrphyal. On the other hand, MD and FL may be two primary Elementals among several sets of peers (life, death, etc.). And there's an uncertainty if even the Elder Gods took true, terrestrial shape only after being worshipped. For instance, perhaps the Elemental that would become Mael existed before intelligent mortals, but Mael himself came into being only afterward. So they're the same being, but different in the way an adult is from a baby.

This is only relevant I guess insofar as Draconus and K'rul and Nightchill are all siblings, and at least Draconus is the kin of Tiam. But as EGs they are Elementals first -- perhaps during the time of wandering -- and if they were vague, rougher shapings of chaos at that time it would make sense they were kin of Tiam. But in that light, all life -- or all matter? -- is shaped chaos, and everything in existence is kin of Tiam, but you could say the more shaped it is, the more distant the relationship. I guess it might be helpful to know just how old Anomander is, and how old the mortal world is. At least it's confirmed that Drac is MD's first boyfriend, and FL basically cuckolded him.

After finishing Crippled God, I've begun to doubt there being even a shred of truth in the family connection between the Elder Gods and Mother Dark. I think that Udinass theory in RG holds more truth. Darkness, or something inside Darkness (MD), changed. That change brought order out of Chaos. It brought all the elements in to play. Darkness could not exist with out an opposite, light, and shadow was the after affect, and there could not be light with out fire, and there could not be fire with out fuel, etc. These are probably the first elements, the basic ones.

Then, naturally, more come along, more complex ones building upon the first. Life, Death, Destiny, Chance, Decay, Dreams, Hope, Justice, Time, Love, Birth, Anger, Violence, etc. Mother Dark did not consciously create something like the Errant. Rather he simply personifies a need. Whether that is in a cosmic sense or one designed by the emotions of an intelligence is not really significant in any other way than the way it takes shape. There is the God and then there is the power. If you kill the god the power does not disappear it just loses its focus.

K'rul, Draconus, Nightchill, etc, call each other brother and sister because they are gods representing elements and powers that are entwined. They are all connected.That's the way I see it anyway. I sure hope Erikson will finally shed some more light on MD and FL in the Kharkanas books.

This post has been edited by Clockwork Apt: 12 March 2011 - 07:42 AM

[worry]

Yeah I think I mostly agree with you.

There's also that third cosmogony (a word I just looked up to say what I mean, as opposed to misusing "cosmology") that comes from Feather Witch's readings in Midnight Tides, when she witnesses the "Beginnings". It features the three original Fulcra: Fire, Dolmen, and Errant which are all floating through the Abyss. Errant (gravity?) brings Dolmen (the planets) into its orbit around Fire (the suns/stars) in such a way that, at least occasionally, it's rooted at a distance where life can form, all that stuff. And then The Errant creates the Holds and the other Fulcra. It's a mythology that seems at least in part to invite a Big Bang reading for the origin of the mortal universe.

[Sinisdar Toste]

I love cosmogony

[tiam]

 Clockwork Apt, on 12 March 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 11 March 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

The line between Elemental and Elder God is a tricky one we just don't know enough about. If I remember correctly, from different perspectives, Mother Dark either created the Elementals out of chaos and they were her true first children, and that may or may not be apocrphyal. On the other hand, MD and FL may be two primary Elementals among several sets of peers (life, death, etc.). And there's an uncertainty if even the Elder Gods took true, terrestrial shape only after being worshipped. For instance, perhaps the Elemental that would become Mael existed before intelligent mortals, but Mael himself came into being only afterward. So they're the same being, but different in the way an adult is from a baby.

This is only relevant I guess insofar as Draconus and K'rul and Nightchill are all siblings, and at least Draconus is the kin of Tiam. But as EGs they are Elementals first -- perhaps during the time of wandering -- and if they were vague, rougher shapings of chaos at that time it would make sense they were kin of Tiam. But in that light, all life -- or all matter? -- is shaped chaos, and everything in existence is kin of Tiam, but you could say the more shaped it is, the more distant the relationship. I guess it might be helpful to know just how old Anomander is, and how old the mortal world is. At least it's confirmed that Drac is MD's first boyfriend, and FL basically cuckolded him.

After finishing Crippled God, I've begun to doubt there being even a shred of truth in the family connection between the Elder Gods and Mother Dark. I think that Udinass theory in RG holds more truth. Darkness, or something inside Darkness (MD), changed. That change brought order out of Chaos. It brought all the elements in to play. Darkness could not exist with out an opposite, light, and shadow was the after affect, and there could not be light with out fire, and there could not be fire with out fuel, etc. These are probably the first elements, the basic ones.

Then, naturally, more come along, more complex ones building upon the first. Life, Death, Destiny, Chance, Decay, Dreams, Hope, Justice, Time, Love, Birth, Anger, Violence, etc. Mother Dark did not consciously create something like the Errant. Rather he simply personifies a need. Whether that is in a cosmic sense or one designed by the emotions of an intelligence is not really significant in any other way than the way it takes shape. There is the God and then there is the power. If you kill the god the power does not disappear it just loses its focus.

K'rul, Draconus, Nightchill, etc, call each other brother and sister because they are gods representing elements and powers that are entwined. They are all connected.That's the way I see it anyway. I sure hope Erikson will finally shed some more light on MD and FL in the Kharkanas books.

Very little to add to this but just thought id bring it up

In TCG the FA that Hood bites claims he could have been an EG. I dont think EG specifically has to be an elemental, they may not be one and the same. Its possible oof course that Hood could be a death elemental but even in this case, as you say, theres no structure behind, MD didnt produce these willingly they just manifested.

It also ties in with that 'too many peaks' idea from BH. So much power being drawn from worshippers and the fact that the powers themselves are constrained by that. We see Bugg wrestle with his worshippers in RG for control. There seems to be an imposition and then somebody embodies that role rather than the EG being born to give thos elements a face. An example would be Krul as before the warrens he was simply an EG as far as we know.

Edit- Just occured to me but given the Andii were not MD first children and it may not be the EG either. Could it possibly be the Ancients? Not simply the Soletken but the original dragons. They embody choas but are unaligned kinda thing.

This post has been edited by tiam: 12 March 2011 - 05:18 PM

[worry]

Why don't you tell us, TIAM?!?! (if that is your real name!!!)

[Rath Orlong]

 tiam, on 11 March 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Now that's an interesting point. it certainly seems as tho Tiam had an earlier form and a later one that was this massive five headed dragon mash-up, but between all the people sexing her, drinking her blood or resembling her i think the gestalt form came later, or is just one way she can manifest of many.

Plus, as with the 'I am Burn!' thing back in DoD, it is possible that Olar Ethil lies, is nuts, or has a very creative imagination. Add that one to the 'well never know' list.

Actually if Tiam had to be killed for a few people to drink Tiams blood, in a specific Tiam as a dragon sense not all dragons etc, it makes sense for her to have an earlier form. In fact that 5 headed form was a consequence of ALL the dragons being there from SD. In fact id go as far to say that those drank from the original Tiam are the Ancients allowing them to supercede 'lesser' Tiam blood such as kessobahn Liosan. That might explain their dominance. If it was Rake that killed the original Tiam and the ancients drank from her, Olar Ethil could simply have been the first explaining her giant size in comparison to other soletaken and also explaining her undead twin to Tiam comment given that its tiams earlier form.

In fact could Olar Ethil have drank so much that it legitimitely adds her to that list of dragons we have in MT. Shes added as alomost as an afterthought which may suggest its becasue shes not a legitimate spawn of Tiam but has so much inside her that shes considered one of the purest Elient.

Then again she is batshit crazy

When I read the description of Tiam as a multiheaded dragon, I thought of Olar Ethil. I can't remember which book it is (help anyone?) where she says sher tore herself from Tiam. My first thought was, "Damn! Were there 6 heads before Olar tore herself away?"

I agree though, and the Ritual of T'Lan proves it, that she is batshit crazy. Possibly a liar, too.

[tiam]

 worrywort, on 13 March 2011 - 01:46 AM, said:

Why don't you tell us, TIAM?!?! (if that is your real name!!!)

Tiam
TCG book
???????
knowledge

Edit- Rud- The only description I remember was her being undead twin to Tiam which was a while back. She been coming out with some absolute cracking lines the last couple of books though so she may have said that. I thought ripped herself from Tiam was something along the same lines as drinking her blood but as she seem the biggest Soletaken dragon/Ancient then maybe it was a different process. I still think that she was just the first Draconic soletaken and the rest (I birthed the ERES and am BURN...nurse nurse shes out of bed again...) may just be her lying.

Maybe shes not lying and simply believes she is these things. Her viewpoint in TCG makes her seem more than a little unhunged and behind the times.

This post has been edited by tiam: 13 March 2011 - 02:26 PM

[Maluz]

Here's a quote from TCG regarding Draconus and his confrontation with Kilmandaros...
"Half a league ahead, she saw hills of red sand, rippling as they climbed to the horizon. No places in which to hide - no caves, no forests - she would have to leave this realm soon. And yet - Kilmandaros glanced back over one shoulder.
A storm of darkness, boiling to consume half the sky.
Close! Close! Her breath tore at her throat. Her hearts pounded like the thunder of clashing stormclouds. She stumbled on torn, bloodied feet, her muscled burning like acid.
Where? Where to hide?
'I've done a terrible thing. And now I will pay - it was all Errastas! All his fault, not mine! I did not want her freed - I swear it!'
The slope of the nearest hill loomed before her, a sweep of red sand - how she hated this place!
'A terrible thing. A terrible thing!'
Darkness foamed up on either side. Crying out, Kilmandaros staggered to a halt, wheeled round, lifting her hands--
He struck from the sky.
Wings like flames of night. The blaze of argent reptilian eyes. Talons lunging down, impaling her shoulders, snatching her from the ground.
Kilmandaros shrieked, fists closing to smash upward into the dragon's ridged chest. The sound the impacts made was thunder.
And then, trailing ropes of blood, she was falling.
His shadow passed over her, a wheeling, plummeting presence, looming huge - jaws snapping out from a head above a lashing neck. Fangs sank into one thigh and she was thrown upward once more. Spinning, she saw gleaming bone where the muscled of her left thigh had been - saw blood spraying out from her leg. Howling, she fell earthward once more."
Sounds to me that Draconus did veer into a dragon, but he was such a badass that he also cloaked himself in darkness for extra effect and to terrorize his opponents.
This quote is from the TOR big paper back edition pg. 649

This post has been edited by Maluz: 10 April 2011 - 06:03 PM