[caladanbrood]

Spoilers spoilers, eye-bleeding spoilers etc.







I reckon these guys deserve their own thread! Yedan Derryg was undoubtedly the best character in this book in my eyes. Previously the Shake storyline had been dominated by Yan Tovis, who was pretty awesome, but seemed rather weak and peripheral in this book. Her demotion was a shame, but at least it left a big gap for The Watch to step into, and oh, how he stepped! His death was incredible, and up there with Coltaine, Itkovian and Rake for dramatic impact. We had been given a good idea of what he might have been capable of with his encounter with the Liosan in the previous book, but wow. The only other person we've seen deal with Hounds so effectively is Rake, and even he sembled to a dragon to fight other dragons... he's surely right up there with Karsa for sheer kick-assery.




Somehow though, I wish the Shake storyline had been more significant earlier. While, in this book, he stole the show, I had nowhere near the emotional investment in him that Itkovian or Coltaine commanded, and I suspect that might have been because he had been wandering around for a couple of books without seemingly doing anything important. Even here, in his finest hour, it seemed something of a side-show. Yes, the Liosan would be pretty scary had they taken Karkhanas and escaped en-masse into the world, but even the idea they were all trapped was somewhat diluted by those we had come across before, especially in Stonewielder.

I guess I'm a bit saddened that such a wonderful character was rather wasted, in the overall scheme of things. If the Liosan threat had been more clear throughout the series, might this have been different. What do you think?

[Lister of Smeg]

I felt the complete opposite. I couldn't stand Yedan Derryg and I cheered when he died. Erikson has a lot of badass characters that I love, but Derryg was just missing something. He was a bit dull personality-wise and to be able to kill a FA, three dragons, four Hounds of Light and hundreds of Liosan by himself was ridiculous. Though I got the feeling that the sword did most of the hard work rather than Yedan himself.

[MTS]

I think it would've been great to have the Liosan break out of Kurald Liosan and help in the fight against the Spire. It seemed quite detached from everything else that was going on (in my eyes anyway), so it was difficult to make sense of how it fit in the wider context. The whole time I was pretty much thinking 'this is cool and all, but why is this important?' I never really did get my answer, and the fact that there were 13 new Soletaken Liosan didn't really come into play in the end, which was disappointing. They pretty much just got slaughtered without really doing much. At the start I was like 'holy shit, thirteen Soletaken Eleint? The Shake are screwed, they are going to tear shit UP!' But that never happened. So I agree with you in that it was disappointing that the relationship between that storyline and the others wasn't more clear, and that the new threat didn't really amount to much at all, so it was hard to feel satisfied with that at the end of the book.

[Luzburg]

He didn't have the sword for the Assail, and where did it say that it was a Pure?

I loved the Shake parts, except for the mad woman on the throne. I was dissapointed that nimander turned out to be just another soletaken. I thought he was going to be a pure andii king for a new age of darkness.

[Edonidd]

I thought this whole arc was pretty bad, and none of it made sense to me. SE stated that the TL if they made it through would sweep across all the realms or something like that... Uh how?

The "army" of the Shake and some non combatant Leth were all at least their equals 1vs1. We have seen plenty of other armies that would have had no problem standing against them. And even with 13 (newborn) soletaken Elient, we have seen more than a few people capable of at least putting a dent in them. Just Ryadd (who stated he could have easily taken Silchas Ruin in the past before being written off in this book?) And Silchas could have probably taken out all the TL Elient leaving the TL as little more than a week mercenary company level army. Probably not even capable of "sweeping over" Letherii like the TE and then Bonehunters did.

Just didn't make much sense to me.

[Iamme]

Luzburg, on 03 March 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

He didn't have the sword for the Assail, and where did it say that it was a Pure?

Assail's name, behavior and the simple fact that Watch recognized him as Assail was dead give away.

[Iamme]

Edonidd, on 03 March 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

I thought this whole arc was pretty bad, and none of it made sense to me. SE stated that the TL if they made it through would sweep across all the realms or something like that... Uh how?

The "army" of the Shake and some non combatant Leth were all at least their equals 1vs1. We have seen plenty of other armies that would have had no problem standing against them. And even with 13 (newborn) soletaken Elient, we have seen more than a few people capable of at least putting a dent in them. Just Ryadd (who stated he could have easily taken Silchas Ruin in the past before being written off in this book?) And Silchas could have probably taken out all the TL Elient leaving the TL as little more than a week mercenary company level army. Probably not even capable of "sweeping over" Letherii like the TE and then Bonehunters did.

Just didn't make much sense to me.

I sense too many assumptions and too much frustration;)
1) We have not seen Ryad, ever, in action. His claims mean nothing.
2)There is no reason to believe that those 13 Eleint ST TL were weak just because they got killed.
3) It was Assail plan to destroy every human and look what happened to them so there is no reason to not think big. Just because TL thought they will take over everything doesn't mean they could.

There are bunch of points I can make but I just wanted to give you an idea.

[Ulrik]

OH, come on, Yedan was great character! Man "forged" to only one thing - fighting. He doesnt know love, because he cant, he doesnt have home, he isnt leader and must lead... he earns nothing. He is great tragic character. And totall badass too...Watch...

[Ceda Cicero]

Edonidd, on 03 March 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

I thought this whole arc was pretty bad, and none of it made sense to me. SE stated that the TL if they made it through would sweep across all the realms or something like that... Uh how?

The "army" of the Shake and some non combatant Leth were all at least their equals 1vs1. We have seen plenty of other armies that would have had no problem standing against them. And even with 13 (newborn) soletaken Elient, we have seen more than a few people capable of at least putting a dent in them. Just Ryadd (who stated he could have easily taken Silchas Ruin in the past before being written off in this book?) And Silchas could have probably taken out all the TL Elient leaving the TL as little more than a week mercenary company level army. Probably not even capable of "sweeping over" Letherii like the TE and then Bonehunters did.

Just didn't make much sense to me.

Couple of points:

1.) On your first issue (the TL sweeping across all realms), this was discussed significantly on two occasions, most notably between QB and Paran at the beginning of the last book. According to Paran, their goal was to conquer Kharkanas, then hit Kurald Emurlahn and depose Shadowthrone, then march down the Road of Gallan (the same way the Shake came to Kharkanas) to enter the human realm. So the "how" of it is pretty obvious to me. There's even hints dropped here and there (someone with better quote fu on the Just Wars or whatever they were called, back me up) in earlier books that the TL and FA have worked in tandem before.

2.) Saying that because the Letherii were "swept over" by the TE and later the Bonehunters and as such it makes it unfeasible that they could hold against TL for any amount of time doesn't work for two main reasons. One, these were Letherii islanders, a lot of them prisoners and ex-cons (which to me could imply a level of badassitude) and two, they were incredibly motivated to fight for Yedan and Twilight, first because of their efforts on the Road of Gallan, and moreso once the battle began and they witnessed the Watch in action.

3.) I have no idea what point you were trying to make by bringing up Ryadd or Silchas Ruin in relation to the TL/Soletaken Eleint. Explain?

4.) As was mentioned numerous times in PoVs from Aparal Forge, the majority of the TL that we actually saw engaging the Shake/Letherii were "fodder." They were commoners. Farmhands, shop-owners, random inhabitants of Saranas who not only had no interest in Kadagar Fant or his devices, they were outright terrified of him and reviled him. The only reason they marched through the Breach was because of the threat of dying on the White Wall like thousands of others. This was contrasted extensively with the motives of the Shake/Letherii army, who were incredibly motivated to fight for their newfound home/leaders. And if that latter part doesn't make sense to you, my first question would be: what do you make of the Bonehunters' initial, virtually inexplicable loyalty to Tavore?

On the whole I thought the whole thing was well-planned, well-executed, and entirely necessary to bring the series to a close. One of the primary, ongoing themes of the series was the conflict between Light/Dark/Shadow, and in some ways this was a partial resolution to that theme. The fact that SE did manage to tie it in to the conflict revolving around tCG/tBH/the FAs by unveiling an alliance between the FAs and the TL makes it all the more sweet in my mind.

My only gripe would echo Brood's - though the whole arc does make sense to me and I felt that it was well-handled in this book, I wish that at least a few of these revelations and tensions had been dealt out more gradually and deliberately. For me it doesn't ruin the storyline - it's just a shame that something I think of as great could have been even greater.

This post has been edited by Cicero: 03 March 2011 - 08:37 PM

[epicfantasynerd]

Lister of Smeg, on 03 March 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:

I felt the complete opposite. I couldn't stand Yedan Derryg and I cheered when he died. Erikson has a lot of badass characters that I love, but Derryg was just missing something. He was a bit dull personality-wise and to be able to kill a FA, three dragons, four Hounds of Light and hundreds of Liosan by himself was ridiculous. Though I got the feeling that the sword did most of the hard work rather than Yedan himself.

Although I totally liked Yedan and his overall incredible badassness as well as the whole Shake story arc - I agree on the sword also being a big part of it. There are signs that it is fighting on its own: page 565 - "So swiftly did it slash that Yedan almost lost his grip." page 550 - "A face she barely knew, so twisted was it, the Hust sword dragging him past exhaustion..." Kinda shows that it wasn't sheer martial skill - nonetheless that he would make that sacrifice full-well knowing the end result speaks volumes.

Perhaps the coolest quote came from the TL soldier that had been misplaced in the pile of dead because half his head was cut off:
page 557: Aparal mentions the Hust LEGION

"Oh, you'd like that, wouldn't you? But there's no Hust Legion. There's one man. One Hust sword. Slayer of dragons and slayer of hounds, slayer of a thousand Liosan ... one man."

[Edonidd]

As for points #1&2, I had to look it up, but the actual quote was;
"Unobstructed they will breach the gate to your own world, and they will lay waste to every human civilization, until nothing remains but ash. And then they will slay the gods themselves. Your gods."

I just didn't see that capability from the TL army. Even if the army defending that gate was the Bonehunters with the Bridgeburners instead of regulars, and commanded by Dessam and his Sword bodyguards; being able to overcome one army is A LOT different from taking on every human civilization, and the gods.

Point #3 I was just bringing up 2 random people that could have put a hurt on at the very least the Soletaken Elient among them. Since their armies didn't seem badass enough to pull off killing all of the humans even without taking the gods into account. And their only hope of taking out gods would have been those dragons. Rudd Elalle is a badass with nothing to do. And Silchas is an ancient and could have dominated at least some if not all of the new elient. Even if the TA themselves had just waited and never gone to Kharakas Silanah and the TA soletaken could have themselves killed all of the TL soletaken, and then laid waste to the army.

Sure as for point #4, they started with just the farmers and bakers and "regular" TL, but by the end they were sending all of their elite soldiers. And yes the Shake were more motivated, and the regular TL weren't. But if they had actually breached the gate to Wu, I'm assuming the people there would be motivated too.

I'm not saying they were wimps or anything. I just didn't buy the whole Wu busting, God killing, holy army of awesomeness angle. In fact, in the grand scheme of things that we have seen so far, the TL army seemed pretty mundane and everyday. 2 shake witches were able to wreak some havok on them for a while, what are they gonna do against a High Mage or two backed up by a mage cadre and squad mages in every squad?

Just didn't work for me.

[Ulrik]

So far, every time we saw Liosan, they were arrogant as hell...and got spanked for it accordingly...

[tiam]

Edonidd, on 04 March 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

As for points #1&2, I had to look it up, but the actual quote was;
"Unobstructed they will breach the gate to your own world, and they will lay waste to every human civilization, until nothing remains but ash. And then they will slay the gods themselves. Your gods."

I just didn't see that capability from the TL army. Even if the army defending that gate was the Bonehunters with the Bridgeburners instead of regulars, and commanded by Dessam and his Sword bodyguards; being able to overcome one army is A LOT different from taking on every human civilization, and the gods.

Point #3 I was just bringing up 2 random people that could have put a hurt on at the very least the Soletaken Elient among them. Since their armies didn't seem badass enough to pull off killing all of the humans even without taking the gods into account. And their only hope of taking out gods would have been those dragons. Rudd Elalle is a badass with nothing to do. And Silchas is an ancient and could have dominated at least some if not all of the new elient. Even if the TA themselves had just waited and never gone to Kharakas Silanah and the TA soletaken could have themselves killed all of the TL soletaken, and then laid waste to the army.

Sure as for point #4, they started with just the farmers and bakers and "regular" TL, but by the end they were sending all of their elite soldiers. And yes the Shake were more motivated, and the regular TL weren't. But if they had actually breached the gate to Wu, I'm assuming the people there would be motivated too.

I'm not saying they were wimps or anything. I just didn't buy the whole Wu busting, God killing, holy army of awesomeness angle. In fact, in the grand scheme of things that we have seen so far, the TL army seemed pretty mundane and everyday. 2 shake witches were able to wreak some havok on them for a while, what are they gonna do against a High Mage or two backed up by a mage cadre and squad mages in every squad?

Just didn't work for me.

I see your point and I felt the same when the KCCM and FA were 'nerfed'.

But this isnt the first time time we get a POV of someone with the arrogance that cant be backed up. Dejihm Nebrahl in BH was supposed to be unstoppable and there are other examples from those who have been outside the game too long still believing there dominant.

Even Kilava was supposed to 'rival the gods with her power' (not exact quote) and she was nearly taken down by a mortal Sword not even an ascendent. In theory Kilava, having given birth to the god Gruntle drew his power from, she would be more powerful but it didnt pan out that way. The TL believed they would sweep aside the 'corrupt' human civilisations with the justice just like the FA did but again arrogance does not lead to efficacy.

[D'rek]

Since the Liosan were teamed up with the "we're going to kill all humans" Forkrul Assail, I don't see why sweeping across Wu would be so hard, once all the humans in it are dead. Killing gods probably gets fairly easy when all their worshippers are dead, too.

[Abey1245]

I seriously can't believe I missed that he is gay on my first read though... feeling like a dirty ole skimmer right now!! It stopped me dead on my 2nd read through, thinking how the hell did I catch that. Yedan sure is a BMF and I would have liked to see more of him in the previous books, I feel we didn't get a chance to know him at all then he kicks serious ass with help from that Hust sword and he's dead.

[worry]

Yah, but I like that there are so many blank spots with him. And we can infer the content of his character just by what he does for Yan Tovis and the other Shake, often off screen, and often enough in spite of her rejecting him for a long while. Sometimes the small reveals can tell a whole lot about an otherwise man of mystery.

[gandrin]

Yedan was a great character. He fit his role perfectly as the tragic superhero. Very sad to see him go.

But I think he was nothing but a setup for an even better part--that speech that the Tiste Andii gave smashing the shield bearer. "this is OUR FIGHT!!!" That totally brought chills down my spine.


However, I agree with the OP--what exactly was the whole point of this story arc? Shake-TA-TL-Kharkanas-....then what? It's just a blind deadend storywise, and had nothing to do with the CG, except perhaps distracting the soletaken from joining the Storm.

[worry]

It's because the TL/FA were interested in taking over all warrens, not just the mortal world. They were two fronts of the same war.

[Sinisdar Toste]

not to mention we are about to dive into the storied early epochs of grand kharkanas, with the sundered shadow storyline very much still running

[D'rek]

Also not to mention that we've had the story of the Tiste Andii, spurned by their goddess and now tragic wanderers without a good cause, since GotM. After Rake's colossal gesture in TtH the Andii needed some closure.