[Kalse]

Korabas, on 05 March 2011 - 01:37 AM, said:

Well I can't wait any longer. I didn't want to do this but for everyone's sake.

Looks like I need to pull out a reveal to save my sorry ass thanks to the epic fail by GL. Even though it will only be temporary as the FM will have to waste a night action in killing me. Since I’m on my way out I need to get some information out to the masses.

I’m Bavedict the FM hunter. My job is to find the FM. I have the ability to do a find on a player to determine if they are a shapshifter. I’ve already done finds on Rashan and Barghast and they both came up clean. At the resolution of the last card game I was informed that the FM became a member of my faction. So Team J you are now harboring the FM. Also, I was notified that he came over at the resolution of the card game and not after a lynch. So if anyone from team J knows who that player is that moved over then you now know who the FM is

I tried to trick them to reveling themselves by trying to get them to out someone from their previous faction but they probably didn’t know anybody on that faction same as me. I thought it worth an effort to see if anyone took the bait.

So if you would like to keep someone around that could help you find the FM at least maybe for one more night then please vote out Merrid. We might get lucky and the FM won’t be able to see this post until after the lynch has gone through and won’t be able to change his night action to off me.

Hrm. Interesting reveal, though a Google search for the Culture and the name 'Bavedict' returns nothing, other than references to the aforementioned alchemist.

On the one hand, you're telling the truth, and you're a valuable tool. On the other hand, you're a revealed finder who is apparently part of team J - why are you a member of Jernau? Would you not be the additional player, perhaps independent? Or was Jernau's faction one larger from the start?
Next on the list, you could very well be lying. As in, you ARE the additional number in our ranks, and are therefore a cultist, second FM, whatever.
You've also been quite aggressive, and started off randomly voting on day one, and have been quite involved today. I applaud that, the game would be dead otherwise, I'm sure, but as a FM-hunter what's your reasoning for your actions? Trying to get pressure out there? We can't really change votes over time, so if you're wrong, you're not getting any benefit out of pressuring people that way. You're basically a finder. And yet you're being aggressive. I'm the first person to admit that just because you have a certain role you shouldn't play it a certain way, but it's still interesting that you haven't been more careful.

Which brings us to the next point, I guess. Why Merrid? Why try and play the factional game with someone random like that? Indeed, if you knew the FM was in Jernau, why play against team K at all? Team J might be your own faction, but that must also come secondary to the FM in terms of immediate threat?

So, what I'm getting at here, is really that your reveal, and your sudden change in tone, and logic, have pinged alarm bells for me. Like, holy crap we've just hit on someone important who is fake revealing to survive alarm bells.

In fact, you're playing the finder reveal card. You know how we test finder reveals? We lynch the person they are pointing a finger at. Except you aren't pointing a finger. So your reveal is untestable. In fact, your reveal gives us nothing. Barghast and Rashan *aren't* the FM? Handy, but kind of meaningless, no matter murmurs on thread of suspicion towards them.

I guess what it comes down to, is that any player who wants the thread to take them at their word, trying to buy, what, another few hours of play? A last chance, assuming the FM is not on thread, or going to kill you, to look for them? Is one of the most suspicious damn people in the game. Any player who reveals with no testable information, who does so to essentially save their own ass from the noose, is freaking dangerous.

I mean, it's not even your reveal, though that is dodgy as hell, but your final paragraph. THAT has got to be the most suspicious reasoning and pleading group of sentences I've seen in a mafia game. :S
"We might get lucky"...wtf is that, even.

[Rashan]

You make a good point. It's a tricky reveal, because we can't actually test it. It could be a ballsy fake reveal, buying time, or ensuring someone a win if they think they're on the cusp.

[Merrid]

Korabas, on 05 March 2011 - 01:37 AM, said:

Well I can't wait any longer. I didn't want to do this but for everyone's sake.

Looks like I need to pull out a reveal to save my sorry ass thanks to the epic fail by GL. Even though it will only be temporary as the FM will have to waste a night action in killing me. Since I'm on my way out I need to get some information out to the masses.

I'm Bavedict the FM hunter. My job is to find the FM. I have the ability to do a find on a player to determine if they are a shapshifter. I've already done finds on Rashan and Barghast and they both came up clean. At the resolution of the last card game I was informed that the FM became a member of my faction. So Team J you are now harboring the FM. Also, I was notified that he came over at the resolution of the card game and not after a lynch. So if anyone from team J knows who that player is that moved over then you now know who the FM is

I tried to trick them to reveling themselves by trying to get them to out someone from their previous faction but they probably didn't know anybody on that faction same as me. I thought it worth an effort to see if anyone took the bait.

So if you would like to keep someone around that could help you find the FM at least maybe for one more night then please vote out Merrid. We might get lucky and the FM won't be able to see this post until after the lynch has gone through and won't be able to change his night action to off me.

I actually find this pretty convincing. It's a good reveal. You might even be telling the truth. There are a number of things to go over, though.

If you're telling the truth:


1) So not only are YOU on a faction, but the FM is on a faction too? This means all the faction math is fucked. There's no way to really tell where any team started in terms of numbers. I guess we have to assume the FM/FM Hunter are Lives? No telling which faction has the majority, either.

2) If you really are a Finder, keeping you alive isn't really a valid option anymore. You said we might "get lucky" and the FM won't kill you. That's possible, yes...but how will anyone know if he did or not? You won't die till the next day, and in the meantime, the FM will be using your account to give everyone else misinformation under the guise of being a Finder. Even if you didn't die the next day, there's always the possibility the FM just waits and takes you then. Basically, your findings can never truly be trusted because there's no way to know if it's you or the FM. Of course, everyone could just decide to go for it and hope what you say is true and not FM misdirection, but I think that's risky.

It seems like the only way to verify if you're telling the truth or not would be to get your CF. Surely, the CF will show us if we lynch the FM or not, and by extension probably if we lynch the other secret role, too. At the very least, if your CF comes back as a Finder, we can trust what you said about Barghast and Rashan. If we don't lynch you now, there can never be certainty about anything you say until we find the FM.

If I thought it would help us to lynch me, I'd say go for it. But I don't think that it will.

[Merrid]

Ok, after reading Kalse's post, I'm starting to think I don't buy the reveal anymore. The FM Hunter sounds like a real role to me...especially in a game with two unknown players, one an FM. But the Bavedict thing is interesting, after all the other named players were from the Culture books. The heavy amount of new information about the game, combined with a bit of desperation and fearmongering... very devious. I'm glad Kalse pointed this out.

Either way, though, it seems like a bad idea to leave Korabas alive - if not this lynch, then the next.

[Kalse]

Couple more problems, one of which Merrid has just touched upon. The FM is in a faction? He CHANGED FACTIONS? He hasn't changed bodies, there have been no deaths other than credit sacrifices. Which means he was a life. Weeeeeeird. I can buy it, but surely not? He's independant, trying to find a captain! Aside from his finding ability, he can just end up in a faction whose players get lynched and find the second, jump the second, jump the captain. Too easy, imo.

Next, you just told us two people who are NOT the FM. They aren't now, sure. But if you die, they're back on the bloody table, because the thread thinks they aren't the FM. So, again, useless info.



Oh, and why did you change your font for your reveal post? Just out of curiosity...

[Kalse]

The only way I can think of for a game to be balanced, with two additional roles, is for the Seconds in the factions to be those roles. Not the FM, but let's say that every second is a FM hunter? That could work. Though, blimey, three vs one, or even three vs two, is not really fair.

Which would mean that Korabas there would have to be a life. The FM would have to be a life. In which case, the obvious flaw of ladder-climbing through lynches shows through, and moreover, one faction was a man down. One was a power role up, and one had a traitor in it to begin. And the FM was high enough on the rungs that he was traded over from the crippled Team Z last night? Unless Korabas was trying to intimate that the FM jumped, but that is obviously untrue.

I'm just seeing holes in this reveal. He conveniently left after throwing down - OK, RL vs game time, but annoying as hell - and didn't even give us important info like whether he was a life or not.

Hell, we know the FM wasn't in team K's hand-outs. Or in Team J's to start with. Or else our FM hunter would have been told already, seeing as how those two teams have traded out players quite a bit, and both times team K's member has been sacrificed by the captain J. Which means the FM only could have come from team Z. Who we all agree hasn't won a hand, and is therefore down to one or two members right now?

Ugh. The possibilities are many, but with what we've been given, I'm not seeing a cohesive, coherent story. And I really, REALLY don't like the final paragraph Korabas put. Too much please, thank you, let's do this together, hoping for the best crap in one place, for me.

[Rashan]

Good points by Merrid as well. I guess I like my vote again. Fishy or not, actually lynching Korabas makes some sense.

[Barghast]

I think Korabas is the FM desperately trying to buy one more day so he can change alts tonight.

"Even though it will only be temporary as the FM will have to waste a night action in killing me." -> so unlikely, the FM would need to spend two days in your alt and there'd be a lot of danger of us deciding your reveal was shite and voting you(/the FM)off during those two days.

You, sir, are faking. Poorly. |:K

Vote Korabas

[Fener]

Are we having a weekend break?

[Omtose]

on briefly, hopeing theres a weekend break

if korabas is the finder then we should vote merrid

if he isnt, team J should vote for merrid anyway

only people who would vote for korabas are either team K or the FM

I cant think of a reason why anyone else would vote for him

catch you laters

[Kalse]

Wow, Omtose, that has to be the most insightful, well-reasoned post I've ever seen. If Korabas isn't the 'finder' - FM hunter, you mean - team J should vote Merrid regardless?

You DO realise the implication if Korabas isn't the FM hunter, right? As in, he's highly likely to be the FM or other unidentified party because he's lying to save his own ass. Unless it's because he is trying to push team J over the top, but are you seriously suggesting that any team take that risk?

You're also forgetting that Team Z, such as it is, still exists, so there's another who would vote for Korabas. Then you have people like GL who voted in error, and cannot remove. Then there are people who were voting for Korabas because his logic sucks, like me.

I mean, are we having a crappy post fest, today, or something? Korabas' reveal is sketchy, but your post is just drivel.

Let alone the fact that we have, iirc, 2 players who have yet to vote. And Korabas is L-1 while Merrid is L-2. Which means you have to rely on the other player voting Merrid to get a lynch. You have to rely on the other player to turn up. You have to assume the other player is on team J, and doesn't think Korabas is lying to cover up being the FM/cultist/etc.

So, yeah. Nice post, Omtose.

[Osseric]

Omtose, on 05 March 2011 - 07:55 AM, said:

on briefly, hopeing theres a weekend break

if korabas is the finder then we should vote merrid

if he isnt, team J should vote for merrid anyway

only people who would vote for korabas are either team K or the FM

I cant think of a reason why anyone else would vote for him

catch you laters

oh, yeah? what's Zakalve's interest in giving Jelunga majority?


also., Korabas, if you're a finder, who'ssupposed to be independent, why'd you spearhead the Craklin hunt?
and then reveal?

makes no sense, I gotta say.

[Osseric]

of course, if Korabas is the mystery cultist, makng "finds" on his recruits is a great strategy

if it works out.

his reveal stinks. I wish i'd bet more now.

[Kalse]

Osseric, on 05 March 2011 - 08:28 AM, said:

Omtose, on 05 March 2011 - 07:55 AM, said:

on briefly, hopeing theres a weekend break

if korabas is the finder then we should vote merrid

if he isnt, team J should vote for merrid anyway

only people who would vote for korabas are either team K or the FM

I cant think of a reason why anyone else would vote for him

catch you laters

oh, yeah? what's Zakalve's interest in giving Jelunga majority?


also., Korabas, if you're a finder, who'ssupposed to be independent, why'd you spearhead the Craklin hunt?
and then reveal?

makes no sense, I gotta say.

Because he's not independent. He's on team J, apparently.

[Osseric]

needless to say, i'm gonna say that's BS. becaus by outing Jelungas as harboring the FM, he's not doing them any favours.

anyhow, I really need sleep. I suppose the lurkers will settle this.
hopefully mods will be on this weekend.

[Omtose]

thanks for the sarcasm, it was a shitty post, because i have almost no time to post, I wasnt even supposed to be playing this game

so yeah, bite me.


apart from that, we have no way of checking if he is a finder, and untill we know the truth or at least have some evidence either for or against its too risky to get rid of him

Its a stupid play if he was the FM, however its a great idea for the FM to vote for him to help get rid of the finder.

If Korabas gets lynched and comes up inno then its odds on that the FM is one of you guys voting for him.

I was aware of team Z, but i think its better for them to vote merrd on the offchance that korabas is telling the truth.

[Hugin & Munin]

13 Players still alive: barghast, fener, galayn lord, hood's path, kalse, korabas, liosan, merrid, omtose, osseric, rashan, ruse, silanah

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

5 Votes for merrid ( korabas, omtose, hood's path, silanah, fener )
6 Votes for korabas ( kalse, galayn lord, merrid, osseric, rashan, barghast )

Players not voted: liosan, ruse

there are no timelimits or modkill limits so there are no weekend breaks.

[Kalse]

Omtose, on 05 March 2011 - 10:13 AM, said:

thanks for the sarcasm, it was a shitty post, because i have almost no time to post, I wasnt even supposed to be playing this game

so yeah, bite me.


apart from that, we have no way of checking if he is a finder, and untill we know the truth or at least have some evidence either for or against its too risky to get rid of him

Its a stupid play if he was the FM, however its a great idea for the FM to vote for him to help get rid of the finder.

If Korabas gets lynched and comes up inno then its odds on that the FM is one of you guys voting for him.

I was aware of team Z, but i think its better for them to vote merrd on the offchance that korabas is telling the truth.

*quietly noms on Omtose*

Exactly, we have no way of checking if he is a finder. We therefore cannot verify his reveal, besides his CF, of course, which makes it likely that he is lying to us. I think it's too risky to let him live, for those reasons - if he's lying, he's a major threat buying himself time. If he's the FM, he's jumping tonight and we lose track of him. If he's something else, like a cultist (which is really the only other option I can think of that makes sense), he's gaining another faction member. Which will make his faction very large.

And it's clearly not a stupid play for the FM, as people aren't voting for him. Merrid garnered Fener's vote shortly after the reveal. It's actually a great play. His reveal just isn't totally convincing, and has major holes in it, so far.

Also, if it's such a good idea for the FM to vote Korabas and remove the finder, but doing so will highlight him as being one of the people on Korabas' train, then it isn't such a great idea, is it? I get what you're saying, but to me, that just makes Korabas a BETTER lynch. We get way, way more info from his lynch than his life, barring a fluke wherein he is telling the truth, survives the night, and finds the FM tonight.

Hell, read your last sentence. Off chance? That makes it sound like you don't believe his reveal worth a damn, which to me means my instincts on the subject are reinforced.

Then again, we're debating, but we've both voted already. It comes down to our two absentees, who seem to share a post count. *sigh*

[Rashan]

Omtose, on 05 March 2011 - 10:13 AM, said:

thanks for the sarcasm, it was a shitty post, because i have almost no time to post, I wasnt even supposed to be playing this game

so yeah, bite me.


apart from that, we have no way of checking if he is a finder, and untill we know the truth or at least have some evidence either for or against its too risky to get rid of him

Its a stupid play if he was the FM, however its a great idea for the FM to vote for him to help get rid of the finder.

If Korabas gets lynched and comes up inno then its odds on that the FM is one of you guys voting for him.

I was aware of team Z, but i think its better for them to vote merrd on the offchance that korabas is telling the truth.

You do realize that barghast is the only person to vote for Korabas post-reveal, right? The train isn't going to necessarily show what you think it's going to show.

[Ruse]

Be nice, Kalse. Its been sleepy time here.

For:
Seconding Team J, imo
Fake Reveal - FM is factioned? Game breaker.
If its true, FM will get him anyway.

I was tempted, but lovely debunk from team K made it seem super weak. Info from CF will be helpful.

Vote Korabas