[Grief]

HiddenOne, on 24 February 2011 - 03:57 AM, said:

So now what?

I go to sleep.

I'll try and get on in the morning.

[Hugin & Munin]

Scene posted for PB's death. And with that I'm probably going to head home then go to bed, myself!

[Mentalist]

soo..... Guanxi= Ma Teng?

yes, no?

[MTS]

Mentalist, on 24 February 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

soo..... Guanxi= Ma Teng?

yes, no?

I assume so, I'm not getting a definitive answer from the wiki.

[ansible]

Mentalist, on 24 February 2011 - 03:57 AM, said:

giving scum two kills a day is ridiculously OP-ed, if you ask me.

Why are you downplaying this? You have taken every opportunity to suggest that the recent kills have been vig's - in fact, you suggested it here even before there was a third kill for the day. Trying to suppress the idea of two separate killers before it gathers momentum, perhaps? Let's look back.

Mentalist, on 21 February 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:

Hey, all, I told you I won't be on till noon.

so what if it's almost 2? I have a week off.

now, since i'm not dead yet, Vengy is not a killer.
SInce the Dude voted me, HE's not a killer either.

this leaves Silencer as the most likely scum. he's being way too smooth and not making any waves whatsoever.

vote silencer

From your very first post, you suggest who is or isn't a killer - and by doing so imply that you aren't a killer, either.

Mentalist, on 21 February 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

The Dude, on 21 February 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

I'm at work. Here off n on.

So reading up on the rules. Iron man is different than what I thought. No nights what-so-ever. interesting.
So I guess i'll get the ball rolling. 17 players ( wtf at this by the way. 17 for a mini and can barely get enough together for a high tmdi game... so sad ) typical Town vs. Scum would say 13 town and 4 scum? Maybe 12-5?

i'd say 2 killers 1 symp. maybe 2 symps.
ofc, this depends on waht roles D'rek gave town.

It's weird that you are speculating about scum numbers and identities so early. You've been posting lots of (mis?)information. Perhaps to build your credibility...

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Tapper, on 22 February 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

Besides, lynching PB would have been a complete shot in the dark, playing the odds, lynching Silencer might nail a symp, which means he CFs inno anyway and leaving us with no clue to his master. Ment... well, I still don't understand why we'd want to lynch him.

Mental should be lynched on his scummyness alone, same thing for silencer. If PB is town then the scum will kill him off. If he isn't then we might have to lynch him for not being killed off.

sigh. lookit, venge. the killers can daykill this game. yet the Dude is still alive. and so am I. This narrow the suspect pool down by at least 3 people.
And I would also like to know what I did this game to warrant such suspicion from Tattersail. I'm pretty sure that I called him out when he called me your symp, and asked why he isn't voting you. he never bothered to respond to that.

Italics/underline are mine. Vengy speculates on PB's death while accusing Ment of being scum... and then Veng dies. Then later, PB dies, and he appears to be town.

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

hey, i'm back (the girl actually had a shopping list this time, so it didn't take that long)
seems a lot of things are happening. our primary targets appear to be Silencer and tattersail. of the two, I'd be inclined to vote off silencer today. Why, you may ask?
for this:

Ace Hunter, on 22 February 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Vote Mentalist

Don't like his comments earlier in the day. Now I'm off to bed.

now, if that's not a "i'm a lazy scum, so i'll just vote where other scum are voting" type of vote, I don't know what is.

At that point, the only people voting me were the Dude and Silencer., both joke/OMGUS votes. oh, and ainsible, who though I was symping Venge, but doesn't think so anymore.

if my vote wasn't already on Silencer, it would be now.

This...was a very odd post. You essentially said your entire reason for voting Silencer was because someone else voted for you? You also took the time to declare your innocence with the "thought I was symping Venge, but doesn't think so anymore" bit.

Tapper, on 23 February 2011 - 10:06 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 23 February 2011 - 09:08 PM, said:

Tapper, on 23 February 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

Vote The Dude.

Based on gut, certainly not enough to make a case, but there is way too much I don't like about the way you play right now. Here's the list of what I dislike and sets my scumdar off.

First there was the rather convenient leaving out of Roldom on your thoughts post. Guess who is killed? Roldom. OK, you might be framed, but hey, so what.

Second, you try to lend some weight to Venges kill. No problems in itself there, but hey.

Third, you go after people early on the Tatts train of yesterday. Now, thanks to the massive amount of discussion on whether or not it deserved to be a lynch, that was the only truly meaningful train. But you don't try and distill much from it, do you? Just looking at who was the earliest non-joke vote and tying it to your own gut (see point 1).

If we look where your vote was... well, it was on the Silencer may be a symp train. Which, as we all agree, even if he was a symp, would have given us a CF of inno and nothing more to work with.

I agree to a certain extent with dibs on the fearmongering you've done.
There is just too much stuff in your posts that makes you look like you want to smell of roses, and by the two targets you went for, it seems you might well try to steer everyone into happy town by lynching one of the culprits for yesterdays lynch of an inno without being too picky about who gets lynched, either.

Sure, dibs is a threat whenever he plays, and sure, Shin fucked up on an accusation against you. But the two combined... I'm starting to feel there is more to it than simply wanting to call attention to two people.

thats a quick agressive leap there, taps. is he getting close to your masters?

I htink the Dude may have hit a nerve here.
vote Shinrei

to see wherethis goes.

Man makes and pushes a case and suddenly he's a symp? Wow, what do you want, Ment, a wankfest? Read back on The Dude and tell me there's nothing there... as I said, it wasn't much of a case, just gut, but I severely dislike how he's attacking yesterday's lynch train with hardly an argument.

Also, the masters comment you made there can cut two ways. Why the fuck are you defending him after there is just 1 vote on him?

Couldn't agree with Tapper more on this. Ment's response after this was weak and unconvincing. And now, after the Dude has bitten the dust:

Mentalist, on 24 February 2011 - 04:02 AM, said:

HiddenOne, on 24 February 2011 - 03:57 AM, said:

So now what?

now, we go back to the drawing board.

in fact, i'm tempted to vote shin again, just to test Dude's theory.

The Dude's "theory" is based on 1) Shin's accusation about the Dude's vote time, which Shin later admitted he was wrong about; and 2) Shin's self-admitted joke vote for Tattersail. Not that convincing. But somehow enough to keep voting on? I don't buy it.

Ment, I think you know too much and you're trying to hide the fact that there is another killer (you, perhaps?). You've been too insistent and defensive, your reasons for voting are obscure, and you're too close to the Dude, who I'm still convinced is scum.

Vote Mentalist

[ansible]

MTS, on 24 February 2011 - 04:03 AM, said:

Grief, on 24 February 2011 - 03:59 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 24 February 2011 - 03:57 AM, said:

giving scum two kills a day is ridiculously OP-ed, if you ask me.

Well, we only had one kill yesterday, and you'd expect them to use both if they had them. It's probably best just to go with the worst case scenario though.

There could've been a heal or a guard, but I take your point.

What about this? Early in Day 1...

Ace Hunter, on 23 February 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

Right, I've been reading the posts made by Mentalist to see why I distrust him...so far not much on my radar, but still looking.

Also, call me slow, but I'm certain the scenes depict an action of some kindbeing performed. So what was this one about:

Hugin & Munin, on 22 February 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

In the surrounded city of Di Dao, an official of Zhang Xiu was contemplating charging the besiegers with their elite guard to break through and flee south. On the morning of their planned attack a messenger charged into the compound bearing a message that had been fired over the walls by arrow during the night. The message read "If your esteemed self is planning to force your way through the blockade, you may not be aware that Ma Teng's nephew, Ma Dai, commands an elite cavalry force just east of Di Dao that will easily catch you once you break out. Consider instead how you may better serve our Lord by remaining among the enemy forces, gathering intelligence and exchanging secret messengers with our generals. I pray that you see the wisdom in this and do not sacrifice yourself needlessly." Reading the message and wondering what advisor of Zhang Xiu saw matters so clearly, the official ordered their guards to put away their weapons and begin disguising themselves as peasants.

[Mentalist]

Okay....

so, for starters.

mafia 101. Again.
this is a "mini" i.e, simple game. i.e., TMDI 2-4.

traditional approach to those setups is: scum to town ratio no more that 2:1. Hence my suggestion early on, of 2 paired killers + symp. Because, you know, that's the vanilla mafia setup in a nutshell.

to continue, shared kill b/w killers is, once again, standard vanilla set up. it's what i'd expect from game like this.

my first post/vote--day 1 meta/joke. you have to be part of the in crowd to understand, but it'll come, with time.

now, the post about Acehunter. that's exactly right. Acehunter made a lazy vote at me. I interpret that as a symp following the master (Silencer), and I vote the perceived master. instead of voting the symp, which is useless.

after this, my response to Tapper is unconvincing. How about you quote it and tell me why it is so? that part adds nothing to your case.
Also, you are convinced the Dude was scum. yet he CFs inno. I fail to see your logic.

as to your initial question, of why I am downplaying the 2 killers possibility, it's because i'm trying to work out the set up. the setup must needs be balanced when designed. unless the town has some major roles, if the killers have 2 seperate kills, to be used each cycle, we are looking at 3 deaths a cycle.
with those odds, if there is at least 1 symp, we are looking at the following WCS

day 1: 14 town, 3 scum
Day 2: 11 town, 3 scum
Day 3: 8 town, 3 scum
Day 4: 5 town, 3 scum. 2 kills, scum win.

that is not a balanced set up, which is why i'm not considering it seriosly. add in even a single vig, a modkill, and game could effectively be over by Day 3.

now, to get away from a crashcourse on game design, my vote for Shin was not caused by Dude's case. read the thread. I stated several times, it was caused by Tapper's reaction to said case. A reaction even shin characterized as symping.

[Trull's son]

Just got in. Can't believe I missed the damn end of day vote, but I've been out for a few hours. Going to bed. I'll catch up in the morning.

[drinksinbars]

Jesus I missed a hell of a lot, not sure where the fuck that swing came from, but another kill to stop the train! Thats a serious amount of bodies, with at leats one of those day kills coming from an over zealous vig. It looks like we were wrong about shared kills though so as ansible quotes above there must have been a save on day 1, looking at the quote he produced it does seem like someone stopped an action or protected someone from a kill.

Hugin & Munin, on 22 February 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

In the surrounded city of Di Dao, an official of Zhang Xiu was contemplating charging the besiegers with their elite guard to break through and flee south. On the morning of their planned attack a messenger charged into the compound bearing a message that had been fired over the walls by arrow during the night. The message read "If your esteemed self is planning to force your way through the blockade, you may not be aware that Ma Teng's nephew, Ma Dai, commands an elite cavalry force just east of Di Dao that will easily catch you once you break out. Consider instead how you may better serve our Lord by remaining among the enemy forces, gathering intelligence and exchanging secret messengers with our generals. I pray that you see the wisdom in this and do not sacrifice yourself needlessly." Reading the message and wondering what advisor of Zhang Xiu saw matters so clearly, the official ordered their guards to put away their weapons and begin disguising themselves as peasants.

It mentions one of ma tengs force, and someone in the palace forseeing danger, seems like a successful heal to me.

looking at the deaths then

day 1 roldom (came at crucial time for lynch)
day 2 veng ??
day 2 silencer ?? (killed by li tong)
day 2 pb (came at crucial time for lynch)

fuck it i will go find the scenes.

[drinksinbars]

Hugin & Munin, on 22 February 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

In the capital Han Zhong, the loss of Jin Cheng put an end to all discussion of an eastern campaign. Zhang Xiu summoned general Zou Jing and Zhuge Jin. Zhuge Jin was currently serving as Grand Administrator, but had a history as an excellent military advisor in previous campaigns. He instructed them: "Ma Teng is no fool, he will try to prevent our main army from reinforcing the north. Take a force of ten thousand and head immediately to San Pass and hold it for ten days. Be especially wary of ships sailing down the Wei River. After ten days your responsibility ends. Wei Xu will bring up the main army." The two officers sped to the pass with their orders. On the ninth day, a flotilla of ships arrived on the Wei River and a force of five thousand men disembarked carrying the banners of Ma Chao. Ma Chao led his troops below the pass and loudly defamed Zhang Xiu, his father, and his uncle. Outraged, Zou Jing called for horses and detailed three thousand to go down from the pass and slaughter the enemy. Zhuge Jin lit out after him to call him back, but shouts to the rear brought him up short. Cavalry lead by Ma Chao had hid in the forests to either side and now attacked Zhuge Jin's forces from both sides. A frenzied clash ensued. Half of Zhuge Jin's men were lost before he broke through enemy lines and bolted for the pass. Ma Chao pursued the fleeing soldiers, who fled the pass while the Xiliang troops raided the supplies and commandeered the defenses.

Roldom is defeated. He was Zhuge Jin,Grand Administrator

killed by ma chao

Hugin & Munin, on 23 February 2011 - 08:51 AM, said:

Since declaring himself Emperor, Zhang Xiu had sent representatives and gifts to all the tribal nations surrounding his dynasty. As soon as news of Ma Teng's assault was received in Han Zhong, word was spread to all of Zhang Xiu's foreign representatives. Several nations pledged their support in soldiers and supplies, including the Xiongnu, nomadic tribesmen living north of the Great Wall. The Shanyu (chieftain) of the Xiongnu, Liu Bao, sent his brother Qubei with five thousand horse archers to ambush Ma Teng's supply convoys. For ten days Qubei's warriors roamed the region north of the river, ambushing and looting Ma Teng's supply convoys. On the eleventh day, Qubei's lieutenant spotted an unusually large group of supply wagons in a shallow valley. The Xiongnu warriors charged down the mountain, loosing arrows. The wagon drivers turned their wagons to the sides of the trail, then fled into the hills. Qubei's horse warriors poured into the center of the convoy, hurling torches. Suddenly a hissing sound erupted on all sides. Qubei drew his sword and sliced open the canvas of a wagon, revealing only open casks of black powder. There was no time even to turn away before the casks detonated and scorched the valley clean.

Vengance is dead. He was Qubei, brother of the Xiongnu Shanyu Liu Bao.

i dont know it looks like he died attacking ma teng?

Hugin & Munin, on 24 February 2011 - 12:56 AM, said:

As spring arrived in the north, heavy rain and thunderous storms blew across the land in all directions. Ma Teng, sleeping soundly in the center of the loudest storms, dreamt that he was a tiger drowning in a river made of phoenixes. His cries brought his daughter, Ma Yunlu, who awoke her father. Teng related his dream, and Yunlu said: "The tiger can run free in any rain, but cannot swim across the river. Father, could this be an omen of looming danger at the river?" Suddenly wary, Ma Teng summoned his general Pang De and bid him investigate the river nearby.

At a camp along the river, the Lu general Li Tong was inspecting the finished dam. A messenger from a secret Lu official had given him the location of Ma Teng's main camp, hidden in a deep valley north-east of Jin Cheng. Satisfied from the inspection, Li Tong ordered his forces into their positions to prepare for diverting the river into the valley of Ma Teng's camp. As the soldiers were quietly getting into position, reports arrived of guards found dead at the southern gate of the camp. Suddenly the main supply tent burst into flame and black-clothed figures emerged from the shadows on all sides to cut down Li Tong's staff and guards. Drawing his sword into his left hand and his battle axe into his right, Tong fell upon the assassins, gutting and mauling the enemy wildly.

Li Tong called to his soldiers to retreat northward across the dam, while Guanxi troops entered the camp from all sides. "Finish them all!" called Liu Ba, a subordinate general, who then called his guard into a defensive line. While Ba held off the enemy, Li Tong brandished his axe and smashed aside the locking pins. With a rush, the dam's gate fell and the river rushed southwards, drowning Liu Ba, Lu and Guanxi soldiers alike.

Silencer is dead. He was Liu Ba, General Who Dominates the North of the Lu Dynasty.

li tong killed him?

Hugin & Munin, on 24 February 2011 - 03:37 AM, said:

News of the fall of San Pass was reported in Tian Shi, so the general Pang Yi lead his army out of the city and south. In San Pass, Ma Chao could do little but watch while the Lu main army from Han Zhong blocked the pass to the south and Pang Yi's army to the north. Ma Chao's officers advised they break out before the encirclement was complete, so Chao had his soldiers sabotage the southern gate of the pass and charged the northern army. Pang Yi's forces set spears to hold back Ma Chao's advance, but the Guanxi soldiers feinted to either side. Pang Yi's forces spread to match the Guanxi offense, at which point Ma Chao personally charged the center of the Lu troops and pushed back the center line. Falling in behind their commander, the Guanxi charged the Lu troops, broke through the center and raced for their ships. Pang Yi's troops pursued, leaping onto the enemy ships.

Battles raged on every ship, until each was secured for one force or the other. Then the ships set upon each other with ballistae and rams. Ma Chao's ship fled north but Pang Yi's ship had more rowers and caught the fleeing Chao swiftly. Leaping aboard, Pang Yi found heaps of straw and an enraged Ma Chao holding aloft a torch. The Guanxi general let out a thunderous laugh then threw the torch into the straw and leaped overboard. Pang Yi fled to his ship, but the flames followed and burned it down. Unable to swim, Pang Yi drowned in the swift currents.

Peanutbutta is dead. He was Pang Yi, General Who Suppresses the North of the Lu Dynasty

---

ma chao again.

Ok it seems certain that ma chao is the killer, possible that li tong is the vig and either veng was also a vig but attacked ma teng and died trying to do it or there is a second killer who drek just doesnt mention.

[Tapper]

The Dude, on 24 February 2011 - 03:13 AM, said:

you guys are being silly. I am a RI General. Thats how I knew that Roldom was RI.if you think it will helpthe cause I will vote myself. But I have no role, take a look at tapper and shin when I am gone.

The underlined is pretty much Le Sigh... if we're back to RI scouting to determine who's roled, we did a step back in time. But ehm, wasn't Roldom the grand administrator and Tatts a general?

[Tapper]

Mentalist, on 24 February 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

Okay....

so, for starters.

mafia 101. Again.
this is a "mini" i.e, simple game. i.e., TMDI 2-4.

Get of your fucking high horse, Ment. The guy is new to the game, yeah, but he made a case against you that has all the proper characteristics and you start by sighing and telling him to leave the serious business to the old hands. If you want to do it, do it in a PM to SH so he can read after the game what he missed, in your opinion, but give it some more respect on thread.

Quote

traditional approach to those setups is: scum to town ratio no more that 2:1. Hence my suggestion early on, of 2 paired killers + symp. Because, you know, that's the vanilla mafia setup in a nutshell.

to continue, shared kill b/w killers is, once again, standard vanilla set up. it's what i'd expect from game like this.

First, we started with 17 players, so dont you think 3 scum is a tiny, eensyweensy bit too low? My own count is 5 scum.

Quote

my first post/vote--day 1 meta/joke. you have to be part of the in crowd to understand, but it'll come, with time.

More high horse. Get off it.

Quote

now, the post about Acehunter. that's exactly right. Acehunter made a lazy vote at me. I interpret that as a symp following the master (Silencer), and I vote the perceived master. instead of voting the symp, which is useless.

Throwing compliments around now?

Quote

after this, my response to Tapper is unconvincing. How about you quote it and tell me why it is so? that part adds nothing to your case.
Also, you are convinced the Dude was scum. yet he CFs inno. I fail to see your logic.

Might be his way of saying The Dude was a symp? Sure, the story doesn't suggest it as he's a general and not a traitor or spy or whatever, but I think that's what he means.

Quote

as to your initial question, of why I am downplaying the 2 killers possibility, it's because i'm trying to work out the set up. the setup must needs be balanced when designed. unless the town has some major roles, if the killers have 2 seperate kills, to be used each cycle, we are looking at 3 deaths a cycle.
with those odds, if there is at least 1 symp, we are looking at the following WCS

day 1: 14 town, 3 scum
Day 2: 11 town, 3 scum
Day 3: 8 town, 3 scum
Day 4: 5 town, 3 scum. 2 kills, scum win.

Your numbers are off, imho.

[Tapper]

Also, 3 kills is a lot on one day. If there's one vig, it was probably used on Silencer, which could be the vig thinking it was best to close one avenue of speculation... but since all we thought about Silencer was symp at best, that wouldn't deliver immediate pay off anyway. Would probably have been better to hold it until end-game.

The train stopping through a kill seems to be a deliberate scum strategy... twice now. Whether that is to deflect attention, as PB initially suggested, or an attempt to get us to get no lynch, I don't know, but it is somewhat interesting. And worrying.

[Shinrei]

Hugin & Munin, on 21 February 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

It is Day 1. 30 hours remaining.

17 Players alive:
Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, PB, Roldom, Shinrei, Silencer, Tapper, Tattersail, The Dude, Trull's son, Vengeance
No one has voted.

I suppose 5 scum is a fair worst case scenario, 3 is a little underpowered for scum with 17 players to start, but I was operating in my head on a 4 player scheme. It is a low TDMI, but does that mean that a symp couldn't have a power, like 1 time vig or something? That could explain an extra death.

[Shinrei]

Tapper, on 24 February 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

The train stopping through a kill seems to be a deliberate scum strategy... twice now. Whether that is to deflect attention, as PB initially suggested, or an attempt to get us to get no lynch, I don't know, but it is somewhat interesting. And worrying.

Or both.

[Tapper]

Shinrei, on 24 February 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

Hugin & Munin, on 21 February 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

It is Day 1. 30 hours remaining.

17 Players alive:
Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, PB, Roldom, Shinrei, Silencer, Tapper, Tattersail, The Dude, Trull's son, Vengeance
No one has voted.

I suppose 5 scum is a fair worst case scenario, 3 is a little underpowered for scum with 17 players to start, but I was operating in my head on a 4 player scheme. It is a low TDMI, but does that mean that a symp couldn't have a power, like 1 time vig or something? That could explain an extra death.

It's a 2.5:1, whereas 4 would be 3,something : 1.

TMDI is role/rule complexity, not difficulty for town to overcome scum.
Were this a regular game, I'd possibly go with paired killers, a scum guard and two symps who each know one killer and the guard. Maybe 3 killers connected, sharing one kill.

Given yesterdays three kills, both scenarios now seem unlikely, though.

[Hugin & Munin]

It is Day 3. 24 hours and 25 minutes remaining
11 Players still alive: Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, Shinrei, Tapper, Trull's son

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

1 vote for Mentalist - Ansible

Players not voted: Ace Hunter, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, Shinrei, Tapper, Trull's son

[drinksinbars]

Tapper, on 24 February 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

Also, 3 kills is a lot on one day. If there's one vig, it was probably used on Silencer, which could be the vig thinking it was best to close one avenue of speculation... but since all we thought about Silencer was symp at best, that wouldn't deliver immediate pay off anyway. Would probably have been better to hold it until end-game.

The train stopping through a kill seems to be a deliberate scum strategy... twice now. Whether that is to deflect attention, as PB initially suggested, or an attempt to get us to get no lynch, I don't know, but it is somewhat interesting. And worrying.

its creating a massive amount of confusion so i would guess its a deliberate attempt to keep us off balance. I dont see the advantage though in scum stopping a lynch? Surely us lynching town by mistake is their goal? I would suggest we ignore it tbh, as the wifom regarding their motivation will lead us nowhere.

there is plenty of content on thread regarding shin and ment this morning to worry about, without trying to determine if the scum had the dude or tattersail down as a symp. Hell taking out someone on a train is acting more like a catalyst than a block.

As for yesterdays vote, trull made a few mistakes and I liked shins case. He never really responded to it either in a way I found satisfactory, but i think there isnt enough there to convince people as he just hasnt been about enough and like myself missed the end of yesterday. As for the ment vote, i think there is some merit in the case, and the heavy handed response to what i felt was a good case built by ansible stunk of smugness, but i cant help but think tapper is acting very protective of shin and is putting pressure on people in reaction to accusations. Ment seems to have been defending himself since the beginning, even before i felt there was any real pressure. Shin has been involved in making a few cases and although he is accussed of pushing or leading, it seems like he has been getting in early and riding the wave more than anything.

[Ace Hunter]

I'm back, reading up.

[Grief]

Sorry, I don't have time play before I leave. I'll be back in a few hours.