[Silk]

General rambling about nothing important

Was taking a re-read through DOD the other day and something jumped out at me more than it had in the past...

Within the BH's there a few possible almost ascendant type people within the ranks:

Gessler
Stormy
QB
Fiddler
Hedge

Now right at the beginning of the book, prior to the reading when they were tracking Fiddler down... there was an altercation, Stormy got a bloodied nose, Gesler was dropped by a knee and left all glazed over (last time these two were laid low like this was upon meeting Coltaine)....

Now I'm firmly of the belief that QB and his power ups also have something to do with him being an Unascended BB as wella sother elements... but Fiddler seems to be more than just this... he is Worshipped as the God of Sappers, is a Bridgenburner, went through the fires of Yghatan, further annealed by Beak.... Could Fiddler be the most powerfull of the next wave of ascendants as he is aspected to more than most? (lets not forget his amazing fiddling and his ability as a most terribly adept reader of the deck (according to Mael)......

[Tattersail_]

Yes, I do believe he is one of many powerful beings, he is not quite ascended yet as he has not died, he is powerful anyway, I like your thoughts. I do not believe I have thought about him with all the connected dots this way, he has just got better throughout the series, but like you point out, it wasn't just one thing that defined him, it was many.

[HiddenOne]

 Silk, on 15 February 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

... he is Worshipped as the God of Sappers,

Where did this come from? Quote Fu, please. I know he is highly regarded by some other sappers, but a god?

[ShadowRaven]

I'm not sure but I think it's in tBH or RG that some character thinks that if sappers had a god it would be (or would have been) FIddler and Hedge, but it is not said that they are worshiped as such or anything like that.

[Silk]

Well In DOD Fiddler does turn to Cuttle and tell him to stop worshipping the ground he walks on......(after the chat with Brys).

In essence he is worshipped but declines the worship same as some others... but ok maybe not on the same level.... still doesnt take away from him being what I term to be the possible Greatest of the next wave of ascendants.

Its kind of like a cleaner worship as its a chosen worship in relation to respect of the person being worshipped and not just being worshipped for worships sake like Hood, MD and FL

This post has been edited by Silk: 15 February 2011 - 04:13 PM

[Fodder]

 Silk, on 15 February 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:

Well In DOD Fiddler does turn to Cuttle and tell him to stop worshipping the ground he walks on......(after the chat with Brys).

In essence he is worshipped but declines the worship same as some others... but ok maybe not on the same level.... still doesnt take away from him being what I term to be the possible Greatest of the next wave of ascendants.

Its kind of like a cleaner worship as its a chosen worship in relation to respect of the person being worshipped and not just being worshipped for worships sake like Hood, MD and FL

I thought there was a quote somewhere that spoke of "if there was a patron god of sappers, Fiddler would be him"

As for Stormy and Gesler, you could reference Deadhouse when Coltaine punches Gesler in the yap and breaks his wrist. I can't remember off the top of my head but they look at Gesler and make the reference to Ascendants blood coming from his broken nose, then seem surprised when Coltaine only broke his wrist in being able to knock him down.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think its koryk being sarcastic that gives us the "lord of the sappers" thing. something like, "Hail Fiddler, Lord of the Sappers! Hie and fall on your knees!" though cuttle might have similar thoughts in a less irreverent way at some time in RG.

[Silk]

well it was pretty clear when they were doing the drum how much Cuttle Worships him....

Besides, all we are having debate on is the level of his potential ascendancy when he dies as we know he already is lined up to ascend......

This post has been edited by Silk: 15 February 2011 - 04:38 PM

[worry]

He could be ascending in the same way Dassem did, I think is the point. He's nowhere near as far along in terms of esteem from everyone in the army, but he does have other factors in play like the Tanno song and his adeptness. So I like the idea, even though I agree with those who don't take the "worship" lines so literally.

[D'ivers Leopard Sith]

 Tattersail, on 15 February 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes, I do believe he is one of many powerful beings, he is not quite ascended yet as he has not died, he is powerful anyway, I like your thoughts. I do not believe I have thought about him with all the connected dots this way, he has just got better throughout the series, but like you point out, it wasn't just one thing that defined him, it was many.

I'm not sure but from my reading of the books, humans don't have to die (in the literal sense) to ascend. Prime example being ST and Cot, they just perpetuated the rumour of their death but according to NoK they were very much alive when they ascended.

Although if you're thinking of Treach/Trake that, I think, would be the exception and not the rule.

[Tattersail_]

 D, on 16 February 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:

 Tattersail, on 15 February 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes, I do believe he is one of many powerful beings, he is not quite ascended yet as he has not died, he is powerful anyway, I like your thoughts. I do not believe I have thought about him with all the connected dots this way, he has just got better throughout the series, but like you point out, it wasn't just one thing that defined him, it was many.

I'm not sure but from my reading of the books, humans don't have to die (in the literal sense) to ascend. Prime example being ST and Cot, they just perpetuated the rumour of their death but according to NoK they were very much alive when they ascended.

Although if you're thinking of Treach/Trake that, I think, would be the exception and not the rule.

No one really gets how to "ascend", but the bridgeburners didn't ascend until they died, ST and Cot had a very unique way of ascending, it required a lot of death, them almost being killed, severely weakened, they needed a shadow moon, Edgewalkers attention elsewhere etc etc, no one else has ascended this way, Gesler and Stormy were also unique in that they got annelled in magical fire, changing them completely, Fiddler had been through Raruku, Y'gatan. Tanno spiritwalker etc, but he will not ascend until he dies, imo anyway

[Silk]

unless he follows the Path of Dassem who has not died.... Rake never died.... in fact the list of ascendants who haven't died is probably longer than those that died to ascend.... cause if you think about it none of the EG's died to get their power.... Its the step to Godhood that may require the "passing from the mortal plain" but even that is not plain as it its countered by the EG's.

[Tattersail_]

Elder Gods are not ascendants though are they? Would you not agree that "ascendants" are mortals that become Gods, or something "more"? Rake was the son of an Elder God, or elemental, he was born into greatness, I wouldn't say Traveller has truly ascended yet, he is worshipped and will become a God whether he likes it or not. Paran died to become something more, a certain jaghut died and became Hood, little bits keeping coming up

[Silk]

Well Brood is an ascendant.... Rake may have been the son of an elder god but in the Blue Rose Andi he had worshippers and as such is an ascendant of his own but has the additional power ups of being the Son of an EG.... in fact there is also no concrete evidence that ST and COT died to ascend either (they were weakend)... as was said earlier there is no destinct method to ascension. No button that is pushed to say yes you know have all the criteria to be an ascendant.

L'oric is the son of Osserc and is not an ascendant (he may be a prioveleged person within the TL)... so being the child of one does always not equate to being in line to be one. Though maybe if he had taken the Rake route when Osserc and FL went away he might have been.

[ThinkingMalaz]

 Tattersail, on 16 February 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Elder Gods are not ascendants though are they? Would you not agree that "ascendants" are mortals that become Gods, or something "more"? Rake was the son of an Elder God, or elemental, he was born into greatness, I wouldn't say Traveller has truly ascended yet, he is worshipped and will become a God whether he likes it or not. Paran died to become something more, a certain jaghut died and became Hood, little bits keeping coming up

I wouldn't agree... as far as I get it and ascendant is someone who is somehow more then others. They have power. But the nature of that power differs from ascendant to ascendant (Paran being master of the deck, traveler because his almost singular focus and fighting prowess [at least that's how I see dassem]) and is very different in the way it shows itsself. Gods CAN be ascendants, in which case the ascendant has gained worshippers ( as is the case with dessembrae) but it's not necessary. To me difference between ascendants and Gods is whether they are worshipped or not, and whether they actually accept worshippers (Anomander is the greatest example of someone denying anyone who worships him, cause he feels it's wrong)

Whether Hood actually died is a not really made clear. Yeah we see his corpse (or what we're led to believe is his corpse) but if the corpse is there because hood became Lord of the death or the other way around and he died to become Hood never became clear.Paran never really died, he never went through Hoods gates, he was saved at the last hurdle. I don't think dying is necessary, though maybe nearly dying is. And in that case Dassem would be an ascendant. He nearly died of terrible wounds before Temper and Ferrule save him.

[Silk]

I always saw the move by Hood as being a sideways step... after all one has to be representative of death to be the god of death. In a metaphorical sense he passed from the realm of Ice to the realm of death as a soul spirit and the return is a spiritual one wherein the Ice King has come back from extended leave.

[Tattersail_]

 ThinkingMalaz, on 16 February 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

 Tattersail, on 16 February 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Elder Gods are not ascendants though are they? Would you not agree that "ascendants" are mortals that become Gods, or something "more"? Rake was the son of an Elder God, or elemental, he was born into greatness, I wouldn't say Traveller has truly ascended yet, he is worshipped and will become a God whether he likes it or not. Paran died to become something more, a certain jaghut died and became Hood, little bits keeping coming up

I wouldn't agree... as far as I get it and ascendant is someone who is somehow more then others. They have power. But the nature of that power differs from ascendant to ascendant (Paran being master of the deck, traveler because his almost singular focus and fighting prowess [at least that's how I see dassem]) and is very different in the way it shows itsself. Gods CAN be ascendants, in which case the ascendant has gained worshippers ( as is the case with dessembrae) but it's not necessary. To me difference between ascendants and Gods is whether they are worshipped or not, and whether they actually accept worshippers (Anomander is the greatest example of someone denying anyone who worships him, cause he feels it's wrong)

Whether Hood actually died is a not really made clear. Yeah we see his corpse (or what we're led to believe is his corpse) but if the corpse is there because hood became Lord of the death or the other way around and he died to become Hood never became clear.Paran never really died, he never went through Hoods gates, he was saved at the last hurdle. I don't think dying is necessary, though maybe nearly dying is. And in that case Dassem would be an ascendant. He nearly died of terrible wounds before Temper and Ferrule save him.

Silencer back In GOTM:

Quote

The exact nature of ascendancy is left vague. Let's just say that Kellanved and Dancer's ascension is dealt with in "Night of Knives" by Ian C. Esselmont, and was a semi-special case.

Yes, Anomander is an ascendant. No, you don't need to die to ascend, and you don't necessarily become a card just because you're ascendant. There is also a difference between Godhood and Ascendancy, in that you can be an ascendant but not a God, but you can't be a God and not ascended. Basically, an ascendant who is worshipped becomes a God.

As you read on you'll find out more, and we can use more stuff to explain it to you - at the moment that would probably result in a lot of spoiler tags.

But even now, we're not 100% on ascendancy...I don't think the authors themselves know all the ways to ascend yet. XD

Abyss

Quote

Everything you need to know, within the limited scope of GotM only, is this:

1) All gods are ascendents but not all ascendents are gods.

2) There is no hard and fast rule to ascension. 'Ascension' means becoming more than what you were before you ascended. There are many MANY different ways to do this.

3) The Hounds of Shadow are ascendents. So is Rake. Despite what they can do, most mages, including the Tiste Andii Assassin-Mages, are NOT ascendents. But that doesn't mean they aren't VERY powerful.

4) A position in a Deck of Dragons reading and a position in a House are not the same thing. They can overlap, but not automatically. You do not have to be an ascendent to be in either position.

By example, Cotillion is the Assassin (or Rope) of High House Shadow. That's what he is. The 'Assassin of Shadow' card can refer to Cotillion, because he's involved in events, or it could refer to someone else, who is NOT an ascendent or in High House Shadow but whose role in events involves hiding in the shadows with the intention of killing someone. And an hour later the same card could refer to someone else entirely.
And to complicate matters, if Cotillion was anonymously watching said would-be killer, the card could refer to the killer, or Cotillion, or both.

All of which is to say everything is pretty flexible and the rules, such as they are, are wide open.

- Abyss, prefers checkers.

Baruk

Quote

'The paths to ascendency are many, and some are more subtle than others.' or something like that. Baruk, GotM.

Zanth13

Quote

so you have Stormy, apparently already a Sheidl Anvil to Fener or someone, being bad-a$$ enough to survive a horrible wound being healed by Heboric's jolly-jade-giant-tainted hands, bonded to a Tlan Imass because he was in the right place at the right time having survived the earlier events, passing thru Tellan and being bbq'd by an Elder God/draconic Imass/whatever she is, and THEN hanging out on a sorcery-ridden boat for a few weeks. And even then, he's not 'completely' ascended as far as we can see in TB.

Salt Man

Quote

Generally, I think of an Ascendant as just an enhanced mortal, gifted with various abilities: super-strength, long life, immunity to diseases, special powers or access to warrens, often aspected to a particular High House...et cetera. Godlike, but not necessarily gods, per se. (Although certainly many Ascendants become gods.)

Raymond Luxury Yacht

"Ascendants who find worshippers become gods, and that binding goes both ways. Ascendants without worshippers are, in a sense, unchained. Unaligned, in the language of the Deck of Dragons. Now, gods who once had worshippers but don't have them anymore are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed. For the Elder Gods, that means the spilling of blood on hallowed or once-hallowed ground. For the more primitive spirits and the like, it could be as simple as the recollection or rediscovery of their name, or some other form of awakening. Mind you, none of that matters if the ascendant in question has been well and truly annihilated.

So, to backtrack slightly, ascendants, whether gods or not, seem to possess some form of power. Maybe sorcery, maybe personality, maybe something else. And what that means is, they possess an unusual degree of efficacy...They're trouble if you mess with them, is what I'm saying. A mortal man punches someone maybe breaks the victim's nose. An ascendant punches someone and they go through the wall. Now, I don't mean that literally - although that's sometimes the case. Not necessarily physical strength, but strength of will. When an ascendant acts, ripples run through...everything. Andd that's what makes them so dangerous.

Every mountain has a peak, and throughout history there have been mountains and mountains - more than we could imagine, I suspect - mountains of humanity, of Jaghut, of T'lan Imass, of Eres'al Brghast, Trell, and so on. Not just mountains, but whole ranges. I believe ascendancy is a natural phenomenon, an inevitable law of probability. Take a mass of people, anywhere, any kind, and eventually enough pressure will build and a mountain will rise, and it will have a peak. Which is why so many ascendants become gods - after the passing of generations, the great hero's name becomes sacred, representative of some long-lost golden age, and so it goes."

[Tattersail_]

I think the majority of people explaining ascendants above is the best way of understanding an ascendant. Yes I think Fid is an ascendant and yes I think he is powerful but I also think each and every ascendant is powerful.

[Silk]

Agreed, they are powerfull within their path to ascension, however surely a person who is on a multiple path to this ascension would be more powerfull than one who is only on the one patch so to speak..... as if you think back to the comment on the increase in ascendants and using mountain peaks as an example..... If one is on more peaks than others he is being pushed to a level of ascendancy above those who may only be on one mountain peak due to the one peak person maybe being "a cultural push" to ascendancy based on that ascendants tribe/nation etc kind of like Coltaine with the Wickans

[Tattersail_]

 Silk, on 16 February 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

Agreed, they are powerfull within their path to ascension, however surely a person who is on a multiple path to this ascension would be more powerfull than one who is only on the one patch so to speak..... as if you think back to the comment on the increase in ascendants and using mountain peaks as an example..... If one is on more peaks than others he is being pushed to a level of ascendancy above those who may only be on one mountain peak due to the one peak person maybe being "a cultural push" to ascendancy based on that ascendants tribe/nation etc kind of like Coltaine with the Wickans

It depends I would think on the potency of the path, imo Mael is one of the strongest EG's because so many people die at sea, worship the god of seas etc he has people all over the world worshipping him, or following him.

There are not a lot of Sappers on the world of wu for example, he may be a legend amongst them but |I wouldn't say "them" is a lot. Next the bridgeburner path, he is one of many, not the only one, and on the ascendancy will defer to Iskar Jarak who is their commander, next would be the Tanno Spirit, I don't know much about this so cannot really comment, altrhough the songs are meant to be powerful, next his being an "Adept" at the deck of dragons, this is a good skill to have but again Paran is MOTD and they are his cards he is casting. Not saying this doesn't all add up but I don't think his power will be greater than Rake's, Broods, Kallors etc.

Fid is great though