[zenMichael]

 Jingospice, on 30 April 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:

 zenMichael, on 14 February 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

I was being purposefully vague, just in case someone who hadn't finished MT all the way stumbled upon this, but apparently I made it far TOO vague for understanding. Bugg is Mael, a god whose throne is unoccupied. Basically our introduction to the characters is Tehol unwittingly calling Bugg out on his abandonment of his throne (i'm assuming a metaphorical throne in this case, but still).

Also, Tehol didn't know Bugg was Mael when he said this...

ok, i don't enjoy being pedantic, but this is the second time someone has brought this up, and the second time i must point out i put the word "unwittingly" in there for a reason ... [i italicized & made it boldfaced in the quote to make it stand out]

[LordofTheFallen]

In this book alone its may be easy to think that Mael abandoned his throne. But in later books, when looking at characters from the malazan empire, Mael still does his thing with the ocean while still serving Tehol in lether. He's a god. He doesn't have to physically stand with his toes in the water to get anything done. He can do his water stuff while walking around or cooking soup or something. Point being, his throne was never abandoned. So while there are a lot of convo's in this book that hint at bugg being an elder god, this specific one isn't conected to him. But who knows, maybe mael was friends with the guys who once held the now unoccupied thrones, and thats why he messed up his knitting.

[nacht]

zenMichael has a good point here. I think this statement is loaded and it applies to all gods and their relationship with worshippers and that is probably why Bugg got startled.
Bugg has elemental power. In that aspect he probably does not need any worshippers and does not seem to desire any either


RG

Spoiler

At a later point, he is very reluctant to hand out a blessing.

"Throne" here is probably a placeholder for an "altar" and the act of worshipping

Tehol's point is why do gods who dont want to be worshipped end up getting workshipped anyway. Fundamentally, it is because people are selfish and worship for selfish reasons or they are stupid.
Gods get some power out of it and so do the worshippers but some Gods dont like this arrangement.

The Errant seems to have broken out of this dependence. He is in no way compelled to respond to any of his worshippers.
The Letherii still worship the Empty Throne though and are able to fully use the the magic of the empty hold but the Errant clearly states at later points that that he does not do anybody any favor

But the Letherii worship the empty throne anyway. This implies two things.
They like this arrangement of not having a god (and thereby not being restricted to the god's moral code)
and SE likes to imply that the Letherii pursuits are vaccuous.

So the statement is powerful in terms of summarizing the greed and stupidity of the Letherii but not in terms of revealing any big secret (such as Who is QB, who is Ruthan)

The nature of Godhood in MBotF is very interesting and probably needs its own dedicated thread.

[LordofTheFallen]

 nacht, on 15 July 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

The nature of Godhood in MBotF is very interesting and probably needs its own dedicated thread.

I agree. So far we have Gods, Elder and not so elder, Elementals, Ascendants, Mortal Swords, Sheild Anvils, Destriants...
And than these gods can be anything from ascended mortals to animals.

But I think that Gods are someone that holds a thones, and whatever power that throne gives them (Fener ceased to be the god of war when he lost the throne of war). And elementals like Mael and Edgewalker are simply beings of extrordinary power who can't loose it unless they are killed (and in edgewalkers case not even then...)
But I think difference between Mael and EW is that Mael holds a throne, and is thus restricted by it, while EW doesn't.

[Daemonwolf]

All gods without followers (from my understanding) fade from memory, and become powerless (This I believe accounts for Brys Beddicts 'forgotten names'). The difference being some gods don't fade from memory, but instead become indifferent to their followers.

Speculation on my part is that if the god is indifferent to his followers, he can cut his ties with them as far as the followers abilities to influence the god in question against his will.

Spoiler

as Feather Witch and the Errants power struggle suggests.

I'm going to do my best to illuminate the passage I think best represents my claims, even though its from a Reapers Gale

Spoiler

Quote

An Elder god. But not K'rul, not Draconus, not Kilmandaros. No, this was the one elder god who never got involved.Mael's curse was everyone else's blessing. So what changed? What forced the old bastards hand, enough to make alliances, to unleash his power in the streets of the city, that he emerged onto a remote island and battered a broken god senseless.

Friendship to a pathetic mortal?

And what, dear Mael, do you plan to do about all those worshippers? The ones so abusing your indifference? They are legion and from their hands drip blood in your name. Does this please you? From them, after all, you acquire power. Enough to drown this entire realm.

Reapers Gale

[LordofTheFallen]

Its an interesting question, because for the most part it seems that if a god doesn't want to do something he doesn't have to do it. Yet the warlock king compels the sea demon to do his bidding, and feather witch does the same with the Errant. So on one side it looks like if a follower gets a hold on you, you are powerless to appose them, and on another spectrum you can basically say screw you guys and simply ignour what they want.

It's two complete opposite sides of a spectrum that both seem to apply, which makes me think that it is a no-rules type of deal and if you want to be indifferent you need to stay out of arms reach.

[Daemonwolf]

hmmmm. been thinking of what you said LordofTheFallen. I agree it does seem kinda contradictory. But after skimming the books to figure out if there was an answer, I don't have much to offer in the form of quotes, but I'd like to give a shot at explaining what I can.

Hannon Mosag's compelling of the sea demon, I cant really explain, other than the other instances of demons inside the novels seem to indicate that a demon can be bound to a masters whims. I.e. the demons that Bauchelain makes use of, that Tayschrenn commands, etc... This may stem from demons being from a warren of their own and thus bound by those that can control (however slightly) that warrens energies. <for some reason the name of the demon warren escapes me>

Feather Witch was able to compel the Errant (if I remember this right) because she took part of his body (his eye I believe) and joined her to him, forcing herself into the role of his High Priestess.

Also where Mael is concerned, I recall him being surprised at him missing an altar of his when at some undisclosed time he thought he had destroyed all the edifices sanctified in his name.

Pure speculation on my part leads me to wonder if part of his ability to be indifferent is that nobody living has anything left to use to bind them to him, which allows his freedom.

Also wondering if this line of thinking maybe should be moved to the general book forum....

just my two cents...

[worry]

Doesn't Hannan Mosag learn the god's name (from TCG maybe?) and is therefore -- as the only living mortal with any knowledge of the forgotten god, as well as some chaos-powered strength of his own will -- able to compel the creature?

[Daemonwolf]

 worrywort, on 19 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

Doesn't Hannan Mosag learn the god's name (from TCG maybe?) and is therefore -- as the only living mortal with any knowledge of the forgotten god, as well as some chaos-powered strength of his own will -- able to compel the creature?

Good question.... I'm not really sure on that one, though it would make sense....

Damn near need to make a topic about this whole difference in nature between the higher level entities.... its an interesting discussion, in my opinion....

just my two cents..

[LordofTheFallen]

The sea demon was deffinately a god, brys noticed that he (or something associated with him) was missing when he went to the ocean floor. So basically Hannan went to that area, chose the strongest god of the bunch and somehow enslaved it while he fed it power.

Though that particular god was far different from any we have seen so far; He is made up entirely of memories and sacrifices, and so couldn't be destroyed, and his mear prescence was able to corrupt others around him (namely the errant, who was a big time god back in the day.)

[IgnatiusKruppe]

OP's basic premise is right no matter how you want to dice it. No matter what Bugg's actual powers or relationship to the "rest" of Mael, and no matter that they were talking about the Empty Hold, it was still Erikson alluding
to Bugg & Mael in some way.


But as to the more precise discussion..I feel like the people who know Mael see Bugg and go "Oh, it's Mael" not "Oh you're an aspect / avatar of Mael. I guess I'll go look through MT now, but I remember
there being several times where it was hinted or stated that Mael had been shirking his duties. During the part when he emerges from the water and Tehol sees him doesn't he say something to the tune of "Great. Doing God Crap
Again. Just GREAT!"and when he loses his temper, isn't there a line about how immortal heads will snap to his direction when they sense the flavor of his power? I was under the impression that Mael as God of the Seas was basically out of commission although quite capable of re-affirming his claim whenever he wanted.

Also, I don't know much about Beru, but she seems to be the immortal power more closely related with the seas these days. Couldn't tell you any specific reasons beyond the fact that her name is taken in vain more often
than any God outside of Hood's leading one to believe that she's tied much closer to the mortal realm than Mael. As far as Mallick Rel goes, wasn't there a line somewhere about one of the positives of Mael reaffirming his Godhood
would be gaining the ability to do something about that greasy shit?

[IgnatiusKruppe]

It isn't that the Errant has found a way around the worship-blessing system, it's that his very nature keeps him from making any major moves. Just the ol nudge. Witness the coin that he rolls onto the floor of the Eternal Domicile which
decides that Brys will go completely out of character and decide to swig the rest of the King's wine despite the King already showing signs of being poisoned or at the least vastly intoxicated

[HKShaman]

Do Elder Gods even have a "throne" upon which to sit? I agree that it is merely a commentary on the Lether peoples. BTW this is my 3rd re-read. I will spend the rest of my life enjoying this series. All Hail Erickson!!!!

 zenMichael, on 14 February 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

 HiddenOne, on 14 February 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

@ZenMichael - Why do you think Mael isn't on the job? I think of Bugg as an avatar that may be prominent, but still, there are other things afoot in the godly realm,; worshippers, sailors to pull down to a watery grave, etc.

oh? maybe i'm just totally misremembering but i thought he pretty explicitly stated at the end that he had forsaken (forsook?) his throne because he was bored of it. i assumed it was meant to be a mystery how he, in present times, sometimes interacted with things. uh. i want to mention specific things, but it's not worth adding a spoiler tag here for those little bits, esp. if i'm just totally misreading this. anyone else?

[Keysi]

Only adding this in here because I don't feel it quite warrants it's own thread but, it's a shame we never get a Tehol/Bugg/Kuru Quan scene (Brys may or may not be included, I think he should be but it's not necessary).

Some time the banter between Kura and Brys is almost as good as Tehol and Bugg. He's a funny wee guy just like Bugg. And he might have saw straight through the disguise.