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Tehol/Bugg foreshadowing Just starting my reread....

#1 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:41 PM

So I'm sure everyone who's reread MT caught this, but I didn't notice it mentioned on here, so for those who didn't catch it or haven't reread it yet, I just thought this was cool. Tehol's first (well, not first, but the end of his first paragraph) lines to Bugg: "Of course, every god should have a throne, but shouldn't it also follow that every throne built for a god is actually occupied? And if it isn't, who in their right mind decided that it was worthwhile to worship an empty throne?" On a first read I assumed this maybe had something to do with the empty hold & pretty quickly forgot about it; on a reread -- ahahahahahahaha. i esp. like the way it's at least implied that this line makes bugg screw up knitting the shirt he's working on (hits a little too close to home, i guess).
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#2 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:16 PM

Colour me stupid, but what exactly do you think this is foreshadowing? Yeah, I read all the books, at least twice and all things about Lether at least thrice, and I still think it's just a statement about the Letherii mentality [the connection between the Letherii and worshipping an empty throne is emphacised quite often in MT]. Just because there's mention of thrones doesn't necessarily mean it's foreshadowing anything.. Sorry, don't get what you're trying to say.
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#3 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:31 PM

View PostPuck, on 14 February 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Colour me stupid, but what exactly do you think this is foreshadowing? Yeah, I read all the books, at least twice and all things about Lether at least thrice, and I still think it's just a statement about the Letherii mentality [the connection between the Letherii and worshipping an empty throne is emphacised quite often in MT]. Just because there's mention of thrones doesn't necessarily mean it's foreshadowing anything.. Sorry, don't get what you're trying to say.


I was being purposefully vague, just in case someone who hadn't finished MT all the way stumbled upon this, but apparently I made it far TOO vague for understanding. Bugg is Mael, a god whose throne is unoccupied. Basically our introduction to the characters is Tehol unwittingly calling Bugg out on his abandonment of his throne (i'm assuming a metaphorical throne in this case, but still).
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#4 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:32 PM

@ZenMichael - Why do you think Mael isn't on the job? I think of Bugg as an avatar that may be prominent, but still, there are other things afoot in the godly realm,; worshippers, sailors to pull down to a watery grave, etc.
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#5 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:21 PM

View PostHiddenOne, on 14 February 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

@ZenMichael - Why do you think Mael isn't on the job? I think of Bugg as an avatar that may be prominent, but still, there are other things afoot in the godly realm,; worshippers, sailors to pull down to a watery grave, etc.




oh? maybe i'm just totally misremembering but i thought he pretty explicitly stated at the end that he had forsaken (forsook?) his throne because he was bored of it. i assumed it was meant to be a mystery how he, in present times, sometimes interacted with things. uh. i want to mention specific things, but it's not worth adding a spoiler tag here for those little bits, esp. if i'm just totally misreading this. anyone else?
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#6 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:35 PM

View PostzenMichael, on 14 February 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:


oh? maybe i'm just totally misremembering but i thought he pretty explicitly stated at the end that he had forsaken (forsook?) his throne because he was bored of it. i assumed it was meant to be a mystery how he, in present times, sometimes interacted with things. uh. i want to mention specific things, but it's not worth adding a spoiler tag here for those little bits, esp. if i'm just totally misreading this. anyone else?






Give me some quote-fu on the "Forsooken Throne" part. The interactions are mysterious, granted. I agree totally with the boredom part as Bugg's motiviation for acting in the mortal realm. Hangin' with Tehol would be way cooler than swilling the blood of sacrificed enemies & hurling typhoons at slow-moving Meckros cities.
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#7 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:36 PM

View PostHiddenOne, on 14 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:

Give me some quote-fu on the "Forsooken Throne" part. The interactions are mysterious, granted. I agree totally with the boredom part as Bugg's motiviation for acting in the mortal realm. Hangin' with Tehol would be way cooler than swilling the blood of sacrificed enemies & hurling typhoons at slow-moving Meckros cities.



i swear it's at the end, during the 'reveal' scene. i'm doing a reread now (hence why i noticed that quote) so i'll be sure to update this thread if no one else does before me whether i was right or not (i'm 5% in ... slooowwwwly gettin there). But I swear you're almost quoting it already. I thought it went something like:
Bugg: I gave that all up b/c I got tired of the followers always wanting stuff I didn't, and it was boring.
Tehol: Why in the world would you hang out and be my servant, though?
Bugg: Well, honestly, you're the first interesting human I've met in a long time. And you make me laugh.

Spoilers for RG/tTH:
Spoiler

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#8 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:50 AM

No your misreading here, they are actually talking about the empty throne.
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#9 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:36 PM

View PostTattersail, on 15 February 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

No your misreading here, they are actually talking about the empty throne.


right, i know tehol is. as i said, UNWITTINGLY....
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#10 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:43 PM

View PostzenMichael, on 15 February 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

View PostTattersail, on 15 February 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

No your misreading here, they are actually talking about the empty throne.


right, i know tehol is. as i said, UNWITTINGLY....


Have you read all the books? Only I can mention Mallick Rel here on ROTCG or I could mention DoD but not if you have not read them.

Mael has always been involved, he is not away, he is not hidden, he still performs his duties as a God. The empty throne is deliberately kept empty, and is one of three empy throne's mentioned, the other two being shadow, although I think this can be contested, and the Imass throne.

Have we heard of any other throne being empty?

You have the book there infront of you, why don't you find the part you are referring to, quote it and let us discuss from there.
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#11 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:57 PM

all right, so i got bored & looked it up. as i say, i could totally be wrong, BUT mael being active in ROTCG & DoD (& tTH, as I mentioned) seems to work perfectly if the events of RG kind of kick him back into gear (as mentioned in my spoiler tag above). in other words, him being active in later books doesn't really affect either theory.

so 2 specific points (just typing out the verbatim, not all the descriptive text):
Tehol: And I've some advice for you, since we're doling it out here.
Bugg: And that is?
Tehol: Live to your potential.
...
Tehol: I admit I have a question. Only I don't know how to ask it.
Bugg: You have no idea, Tehol, how boring it can be ... existing for all eternity.
Tehol: Fine, but ... a manservant?
Bugg: My association with you, Tehol, has been an unceasing delight. You resurrected in me the pleasure of existence, and you cannot comprehend how rare that is.
Tehol: But ... a manservant?

(p. 600-601, oversized US pbk -- pretty sure this is toward the end of the final chapter)

--

Few pages later, with the Guardian.

Guardian: You abandoned us, Mael.
Bugg: I know. I am sorry.
Guardian [Tehol will carry the names]. Do you object to this?
Mael: How can I?
Guardian: This is true. You cannot. You have lost the right.

(p. 606-607)

there might be other bits that back up or refute either side in here, but i'm pretty sure these are the bits that made me read it as mael abandoned his position, abandoned his followers & just took up the life of bugg, and then later he reclaims it for spoiler-y reasons talked about in spoiler tag above (oh, and just for reference, i've read everything that's out currently except DoD & Stonewielder).
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#12 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:11 PM

View PostzenMichael, on 15 February 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

all right, so i got bored & looked it up. as i say, i could totally be wrong, BUT mael being active in ROTCG & DoD (& tTH, as I mentioned) seems to work perfectly if the events of RG kind of kick him back into gear (as mentioned in my spoiler tag above). in other words, him being active in later books doesn't really affect either theory.

so 2 specific points (just typing out the verbatim, not all the descriptive text):
Tehol: And I've some advice for you, since we're doling it out here.
Bugg: And that is?
Tehol: Live to your potential.
...
Tehol: I admit I have a question. Only I don't know how to ask it.
Bugg: You have no idea, Tehol, how boring it can be ... existing for all eternity.
Tehol: Fine, but ... a manservant?
Bugg: My association with you, Tehol, has been an unceasing delight. You resurrected in me the pleasure of existence, and you cannot comprehend how rare that is.
Tehol: But ... a manservant?

(p. 600-601, oversized US pbk -- pretty sure this is toward the end of the final chapter)

--

Few pages later, with the Guardian.

Guardian: You abandoned us, Mael.
Bugg: I know. I am sorry.
Guardian [Tehol will carry the names]. Do you object to this?
Mael: How can I?
Guardian: This is true. You cannot. You have lost the right.

(p. 606-607)

there might be other bits that back up or refute either side in here, but i'm pretty sure these are the bits that made me read it as mael abandoned his position, abandoned his followers & just took up the life of bugg, and then later he reclaims it for spoiler-y reasons talked about in spoiler tag above (oh, and just for reference, i've read everything that's out currently except DoD & Stonewielder).


He doesn't need to reclaim it, he has been living as Bugg for some time yes. In the span of the world of Wu you are talking about him being a manservant to Tehol for what, 30 - 40 - 50 years? The guardian and co were forgotten Gods, that have been down in the deeps for hundreds of thousands of years as I see it.

When a God is out doing his business, messing around with Mortals does that mean his Throne is unnoccupied? No.

Just because he is posing as bugg does not mean he is not still Mael, God of the Seas. He still has his power and that comes from his worshippers. People all over the World worship him and this means that even if he is not sat on the Throne of Ruse or whatever his realm is called does not mean he isn't seen as the figurehead.

I'm not good at putting my thoughts to paper like a lot of guys on thread but i'm fairly certain that Mael has always been the God of the Seas, no one usurped him and his throne was never empty. He may have neglected some of his duties, he may have decided to play manservant but that does not mean he is unaware of everything else happening around him.
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#13 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:44 PM

View PostTattersail, on 15 February 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:

He doesn't need to reclaim it, he has been living as Bugg for some time yes. In the span of the world of Wu you are talking about him being a manservant to Tehol for what, 30 - 40 - 50 years? The guardian and co were forgotten Gods, that have been down in the deeps for hundreds of thousands of years as I see it.

When a God is out doing his business, messing around with Mortals does that mean his Throne is unnoccupied? No.

Just because he is posing as bugg does not mean he is not still Mael, God of the Seas. He still has his power and that comes from his worshippers. People all over the World worship him and this means that even if he is not sat on the Throne of Ruse or whatever his realm is called does not mean he isn't seen as the figurehead.

I'm not good at putting my thoughts to paper like a lot of guys on thread but i'm fairly certain that Mael has always been the God of the Seas, no one usurped him and his throne was never empty. He may have neglected some of his duties, he may have decided to play manservant but that does not mean he is unaware of everything else happening around him.


so it sounds like we're arguing the same thing here, just semantics over the finer point. i think you are inferring that i'm saying bugg would have to, like, "struggle" to reclaim his throne or that he gave it up in a very permanent manner. no, i think he's on vacation, if you will, with the understanding he might go back one day. is he aware of everything he used to be aware of? possibly, though he's just ignoring it? but i would argue not. i guess my main problem w/the idea that Bugg is simply an aspect of Mael rather than Mael being bugg 100% is ....

(RG spoilers)
Spoiler



I feel like we're at the Council of Nicaea now. Is Bugg Mael made flesh 100%, or is he simply an aspect of said godhead? Heh.

And i'm not saying he's not the figurehead, just that he's given up his duties & hence the original quote i posted from Tehol still makes sense. I mean ... grr ... starting to look like a CIA document ...

TtH spoilers:
Spoiler

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#14 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:11 PM

View PostzenMichael, on 15 February 2011 - 03:44 PM, said:

View PostTattersail, on 15 February 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:

He doesn't need to reclaim it, he has been living as Bugg for some time yes. In the span of the world of Wu you are talking about him being a manservant to Tehol for what, 30 - 40 - 50 years? The guardian and co were forgotten Gods, that have been down in the deeps for hundreds of thousands of years as I see it.

When a God is out doing his business, messing around with Mortals does that mean his Throne is unnoccupied? No.

Just because he is posing as bugg does not mean he is not still Mael, God of the Seas. He still has his power and that comes from his worshippers. People all over the World worship him and this means that even if he is not sat on the Throne of Ruse or whatever his realm is called does not mean he isn't seen as the figurehead.

I'm not good at putting my thoughts to paper like a lot of guys on thread but i'm fairly certain that Mael has always been the God of the Seas, no one usurped him and his throne was never empty. He may have neglected some of his duties, he may have decided to play manservant but that does not mean he is unaware of everything else happening around him.


so it sounds like we're arguing the same thing here, just semantics over the finer point. i think you are inferring that i'm saying bugg would have to, like, "struggle" to reclaim his throne or that he gave it up in a very permanent manner. no, i think he's on vacation, if you will, with the understanding he might go back one day. is he aware of everything he used to be aware of? possibly, though he's just ignoring it? but i would argue not. i guess my main problem w/the idea that Bugg is simply an aspect of Mael rather than Mael being bugg 100% is ....

(RG spoilers)
Spoiler



I feel like we're at the Council of Nicaea now. Is Bugg Mael made flesh 100%, or is he simply an aspect of said godhead? Heh.

And i'm not saying he's not the figurehead, just that he's given up his duties & hence the original quote i posted from Tehol still makes sense. I mean ... grr ... starting to look like a CIA document ...

TtH spoilers:
Spoiler




Spoiler
I don't think that is a spoiler but posted as one anyway. It involves Fener

regardding Bugg and being trapped spoiler
Spoiler


I think he has always been in possession of his powers, iirc he uses them towards the end of the book your reading to save Tehol. In fact his conversation with the guardian you mentioned earlier, where did that take place?

Why is the empty throne empty? do you know?

This is DoD spoiler

Spoiler

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#15 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:31 PM

i think it's fine to talk about Fener/the wolves since that's MoI. i hadn't actually noticed if people started saying togg/fanderay more than fener after fener gets pulled down. i always assumed people just yelled out to whomever. i mean, before they took over the beast throne or what have you, people knew who togg/fanderay were, right? and like, for instance (and i could be remembering wrong here ...), aren't gesler/stormy/truth followers of fener, even AFTER he's pulled down? (i could swear the people kulp travel with in DG are, and that's gesler & the rest, right?)

as to your comments on my RG stuff -- yes, ok, that makes more sense with either theory, really. i'd totally forgotten about the "who" involved there.

i didn't read the DoD spoiler, but I'm guessing it ties in somewhat w/my TtH stuff.

and, yes, Bugg unleashes his Mael powers at the end of MT. again, i'm not saying he ISN'T still Mael, just that he's essentially playing hooky, hence why Tehol's words are dramatic irony (but only on a reread ... yeesh): because essentially Tehol is saying 'what's the point of being a god if you aren't going to do something with your power?' which is EXACTLY what Bugg is & is doing.
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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:33 PM

i'm not even convinced that mael has a throne... why would he need one? he's an elemental embodiment of the oceans, his power is wild, ancient and 'hoary'. him and the oceans are basically inseperable. bugg is a physical manifestation of mael that contains his will and desires and thus, if you trap bugg, you remove the will of mael from the scene. ruse, or the oceans, are a wild power that not many people can harness, and it is not part of the high house system. being so primitive, i doubt that the mortal construct of a throne is appropriate. mael isn't the ruler of the ocean - he is the ocean. what need for a throne?
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#17 User is offline   zenMichael 

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 08:38 PM

whichever side of the debate one comes down on (and i'm wondering now as i'm about 60% through if my misunderstanding originally came from the bit where brys visits the guardian the first time. the guardian says 'mael has abandoned us,' but i guess that was just him abandoning the guardian specifically LOOONNNG ago, not like ... his "kingdom" or whatever), there's certainly a lot of foreshadowing. fun ones:

Rucket tries to come on to Bugg, he claims he is celibate. 'What a loss for womankind.' 'Oh, yes, the oceans themselves moved ...'

Tehol on why he can't sleep downstairs: 'Bugg snores. You imagine a normal snore, no. Imagine, rather, being inside a cave with monstrous waves attacking the walls over and over again.'

Paraphrased b/c I'm lazy, but still, amusing.
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Posted 05 March 2011 - 01:43 PM

I follow what your saying, and I think its clever how Erikson hides little hints here and there, that you'll only pick up on a re-read, I had to read all of Tehols conversations with bug at least 5 times to understand what he was on about lol. two of my fave characters so far.
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#19 User is offline   CussersForChristmas 

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:14 AM

Oh Jeez at Tattersail, don't be a hater quote nazi.

I'm not going to dig out any specific quotes but throughout the course of the books it's been very strongly referenced that Mael is effectively retired by his own choosing, He stays involved but not so much as he could or as some believe "should", I think the TC is right in thinking that Bugg might have taken that comment as inadvertent chiding for his own inactivity.

Spoiler


In RotCG it's mentioned that he's coerced which doesn't sound like the actions of an active god.

This post has been edited by CussorsForChristmas: 30 April 2011 - 04:16 AM

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#20 User is offline   Jingospice 

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 07:37 PM

View PostzenMichael, on 14 February 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

View PostPuck, on 14 February 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Colour me stupid, but what exactly do you think this is foreshadowing? Yeah, I read all the books, at least twice and all things about Lether at least thrice, and I still think it's just a statement about the Letherii mentality [the connection between the Letherii and worshipping an empty throne is emphacised quite often in MT]. Just because there's mention of thrones doesn't necessarily mean it's foreshadowing anything.. Sorry, don't get what you're trying to say.


I was being purposefully vague, just in case someone who hadn't finished MT all the way stumbled upon this, but apparently I made it far TOO vague for understanding. Bugg is Mael, a god whose throne is unoccupied. Basically our introduction to the characters is Tehol unwittingly calling Bugg out on his abandonment of his throne (i'm assuming a metaphorical throne in this case, but still).


Also, Tehol didn't know Bugg was Mael when he said this...
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