[King Bear]

**SPOILER**






I enjoyed each arc in DOD with one glaring exception, the Snake. A bunch of children with confusing and downright weird titles (Rudd who is not Rudd etc) trudging around with very little context. I just could not get into these parts of the book, couldn't make much sense of them, and found myself skimming through them. Maybe more information on who these kids were and what they were doing might have helped. I'm thinking that SE probably wanted to keep the snake mysterious for the TCG's sake, but it made the snake sections in DOD boring. Did anyone enjoy this arc?

[Puck]

Yes, thoroughly. Couldn't tell why exactly, but I was always looking forward to reading the Snake parts. I think it gave a good and cool chunk of worldbuilding and gave us some cool info on what's going on in Kolanse. Also, I like Badalle.

[QuickTidal]

On my first read through, I HATED the Snake. I, like you, skimmed every passage with them.

Upon my current re-read I find it easier to digest now that I know a few things, like they are running from Kolanse and the starvation, death and all the shit going down there...what the field of glass they walk through is. I think it is a very avant garde way to look at how children who don't really know a lot about life interact with not only each other, but the world around them. This system of the head of the snake ect. The parallel I draw is Lord of The Flies...not in the way of children fighting one another, but children attempting to survive on their own without the REAL skills to do so, resulting in things like Ribbers (dogs...wolves...whatever) getting at them at night...drinking lime-filled water making a number of them sicken and die..ect.

Then with the K'Chain storyline we have Kalyth who is an adult from the society these kids come from (Elan), and that gives us more insight into how they are raised and their belief systems and whatnot.

As a whole, upon a re-read I find it fuller as a plotline. It's not amazingly fantastic...but it is a window into Kolanse and for that I give it credit....at least now.

[tiam]

I hated the Snake. I hate the in depth philosophy on a first read it feels like a waste of time. On a reread though i always get into it a bit more. I skipped alot of the Snake the first time (it took me a while to realise they were eating each other to survive) but as with TTH it stands up very well to a reread.

[champ]

1st time the Snake was pap...

2nd/3rd/4th - Amazing, especially with Badelle's development!

[ThinkingMalaz]

The snake was a bit heavy for me at first but as the book progressed I grew to like the storyline more and more. It is very very bleak but also very intersting imo. I liked the storyline even better on my first re-read

[HiddenOne]

First time through, I didn't like the Snake parts, but re-read made it a lot more interesting. Same for the Icarium parts.

[QuickTidal]

 HiddenOne, on 09 February 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

Same for the Icarium parts.

Agreed. It REALLY helps knowing what the hell that storyline is about. LOL

[Hetan]

It's kind of interesting that none of us appear to have had much empathy for these children - children in dire need and I include myself amongst you. I was impatient to read the book and find out what was happening with the characters we already knew and to see the plot move on. Like everyone else, I think that on re-read that part has it's own personality and depth which requires a little more perspective to appreciate.

[nacht]

 Hetan, on 09 February 2011 - 07:31 PM, said:

It's kind of interesting that none of us appear to have had much empathy for these children - children in dire need and I include myself amongst you. I was impatient to read the book and find out what was happening with the characters we already knew and to see the plot move on. Like everyone else, I think that on re-read that part has it's own personality and depth which requires a little more perspective to appreciate.

It is not surpprising. The Human Brain is by nature primarily concerned about itself and tends to filter out information that would cause it to suffer pain or put itself at risk (by making crazy decisions)

Let's say, this filter was not there. I wuold jump onto the next flight to Sudan and cause myself a lot of trouble. Or I may give a huge donation and my wife would divorce me.

If all the children start getting slaughtered (and that is decribed in gory detail) we would really be unhappy. And we can't have that, so SE gives us Badalle who with one rap song gets rid of all bad people. He gives us a hero and as Udinaas says, heroes are tropes we create to feel good.

[Benidas Sengar]

 QuickTidal, on 09 February 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

On my first read through, I HATED the Snake. I, like you, skimmed every passage with them.

Upon my current re-read I find it easier to digest now that I know a few things, like they are running from Kolanse and the starvation, death and all the shit going down there...what the field of glass they walk through is. I think it is a very avant garde way to look at how children who don't really know a lot about life interact with not only each other, but the world around them. This system of the head of the snake ect. The parallel I draw is Lord of The Flies...not in the way of children fighting one another, but children attempting to survive on their own without the REAL skills to do so, resulting in things like Ribbers (dogs...wolves...whatever) getting at them at night...drinking lime-filled water making a number of them sicken and die..ect.

Then with the K'Chain storyline we have Kalyth who is an adult from the society these kids come from (Elan), and that gives us more insight into how they are raised and their belief systems and whatnot.

As a whole, upon a re-read I find it fuller as a plotline. It's not amazingly fantastic...but it is a window into Kolanse and for that I give it credit....at least now.

I totally agree, a lot more interesting on the second read. Great insight for the future of the Bhunters(maybe).

[King Bear]

So the general consensus is that it sucks the first time around, but improves a lot on the re-read.

I'm going to re-read the series after TCG comes out. Knowing the entire story will make for a very different experience. Hopefully then I'll actually enjoy parts like the snake.

[D'rek]

I found it intriguing the first time, because everything is presented so mysteriously and/or abstractedly, but at the same time these were hints about KOLANSE, and I did so very much want to learn about that place...

[worry]

I liked it the first time and loved it the second time. BTW, "Rudd who is not Rudd" is quite literally not Rudd. In that poem, Badalle is speaking about Grub (and Sinn -- Held who can't be held -- and herself, who are the first three children of the brand new Icarium warrens). The actual Rudd and Held might be important for some future reason, or merely as symbols for the Snake. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Defiance]

I'm currently blitzing through DoD so that I can be ready for TCG the day it comes out, and this time I'm enjoying the book a lot more. I only find myself getting bored when reading about the Burned Tears, and sometimes about the Barghast. The Perrish parts were also a bet meh at first, but once Krughava starts showing the Bolkando what's up it gets very entertaining (at least for me).

As for the Snake, I didn't much care for it the first time around. I was expecting some gigantic revelation about it at the end, so I just quickly read through all of the parts with the Snake. Such a revelation never came, though. Now, on the reread, I'm paying a lot closer attention. I've picked up a good number of interesting details, and I'm starting to think that Held is very important. So far, at least, there's yet to be a description of Held actually moving, or even a description of what Held looks like - he's always wrapped in cloth. Also, Badalle says that Rutt is waiting to hand Held to an adult. Maybe this has something to do with tCG and Tavore (Rutt could be handing off a piece of tCG to Tavore). Of course, it seems ridiculous that the FA wouldn't completely obliterate the Snake then, unless they had no idea what Held really was (maybe they didn't know until Brayderal found out? I don't recall the FA actually coming to attack the Snake until near the end).

Meh, beats me. Probably just wild speculation. I'm going to be very disappointed if the Snake is only of passing importance in TCG, but at this point I really don't think they will. SE has kept everything surrounding them a mystery for a reason.

[TheWatch]

I'm new to this but have already posted elsewhere that the snake may be the saddest story in the series.

I loved these books. I loved the scope, the mystery, the links we were fed to tie this complex and interesting tale together. I loved the powerful, recurring characters and all of the epic and cinematic revelations and confrontations.

But SE hit gold with me when he dropped this arc at the penultimate point in the series. It had all the trademarks of the style; the mystery of who they were, the language choices wrapping up hidden meanings, yet the suffering was still plain as day. For pages and pages I couldn't accept that they were children alone, waiting for the language to unravel to reveal some other reality. But no, they were just that, abandoned children.

This arc did not need to be a big reveal about the crippled god, icarium, tavore or anything else and those expecting that may be disappointed. But consider for long-term fans that with GOtM we slowly had our innocence to the complex and brutal world of the Malazans stripped away, with shock and awe narrative; it is immensely powerful to come across this desperate and harrowing struggle to survive at this point in the series for children as innocent to this world as we started out. The odd language choices and narrative style reflect that, the children are simply trying to rationalise and represent this horrendous reality they are left with. It's all they can do.

So many of the fans on here get that SE has written the series about horrors of war and power struggles. This is the point where he shows us the point of it all, what is truly worth protecting. Sad that so many see it as filler or needing to serve as some link to a bigger cause. The snake represents the cause. They are the strongest willed characters in the entire series for me. They put so many others to shame.

End rant!

This post has been edited by TheWatch: 16 March 2011 - 10:20 PM

[King-of-Chains]

 Bombur, on 09 February 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

**SPOILER**






I enjoyed each arc in DOD with one glaring exception, the Snake. A bunch of children with confusing and downright weird titles (Rudd who is not Rudd etc) trudging around with very little context. I just could not get into these parts of the book, couldn't make much sense of them, and found myself skimming through them. Maybe more information on who these kids were and what they were doing might have helped. I'm thinking that SE probably wanted to keep the snake mysterious for the TCG's sake, but it made the snake sections in DOD boring. Did anyone enjoy this arc?

Perhaps it's just me, but I have enjoyed all of Erikson's work immensely on my first read of this series. I enjoy the indepth philosophy and the tangents that hold little importance plot wise, but develop a great setting and character. The Snake helped me understand the Forkrul Assail much better than any previous encounter. True there have been minor ones throughout the series, but they were isolated, and therefore I assumed they held no society to speak of. However, the Snake demolishes this concept and creates a most sinister view on these creatures. True it is told through children, but that is what makes it that much more interesting, because the Snake is, in a sense the shedding of skin. From children to adults. Innocence to expereince.

[worry]

This series does occasionally get compared to Band of Brothers, and rightly so. The Snake would be the Why We Fight episode.

[TheWatch]

Worrywort, fantastic analogy, couldn't agree more

[Crix]

wow guys I feel the same way to you guys but to be honest the way I read Dust of Dreams until basically 3/4 of the way through was in 30 minute segments which was possibly the dumbest thing to do with so many threads happening. I just didn't know who the new characters were for the life of me but i plodded on hoping i would figure it out as their characters got developed. For a while I couldn't figure out who the guys that got killed in Icarium's Che'malle fortress thingy. But oddly I gave the 'kids' a lot of reading time as I couldn't for the hell of it figure out what context that Snake thread had on the main story which I must admit had a lot of characters back so to speak like Icarium, Mappo, and Gruntle (albeit very brief setting up the next book) but I tell you what bitches, I am damn eager for Crippled God. It seems a re-read is in order but I cant wait to get tCG. Damn! Decisions! Decisions! I loved the goddamm ending last 150 pages. That was epic shit! QB vs slave rhizans lol and the Bonehunters running into trouble. And fuck yea about time Ges and Stonny (who we find out his real name too) actually does some damn cool shit. To get respect from Gu'Rull was fucking dope. I loved when they were trying to figure it out and so glad Fid got out of his stupor and Hedge ahhahaah lol at him with his new boys and the BB thing. The Toc and Tool scenes were the most emotionel esp that scene u know what i'm talking about where Tool is denied his basic right. but you know what I'm gonna forsake the reread I'm getting tCG and i'm fucking exited. They are all in it now! The Chemalle, Tool and co, tCG and agents, ... ooh but I have to kerb the excitement. Anyways sorry for being all over the shop but again those kids, the Snake, didnt even realise they were kids lol that explains the retarded names. I knew held was a kid but it shames me to admit I did do a skim late through their sections though I did get to the part where Badalle gets the shard/sword.

Anyways, yes, I am off to another city to see an old friend on Wednesday so I might just see if I can pick up tCG in the city in harbor city aka sydney but my ramblings will henceforth cease. Sorry guys just got home, was idling around at friends, now over and out. END TRANSMISSION!

This post has been edited by Crix: 21 March 2011 - 04:50 PM