[nacht]

Allright, I am desperate to figure out tCG before I actually read it. It is a bit of a ego. This S.E. guy has been playing me for too long

So here is my solution.

Spoiler

The Crippled God is Father Light, brought down by the ritual.

What is the proof?

this MOI conversation between Krul and Envy.

Quote

Visions flooded her mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild, unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening - pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth - a savage imposition of order, the heart from while blood flowed in even, steady stream. Twin chambers to the heart - Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark - and Starvald Demelain, the Warren of ... Dragons. And the blood - the power - now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existense, and the thought that came to her then stole all warmth from her flesh. Those veins, those arteris, they are the warrens. 'Who created this? Who?'

At one point, Light and Darkness were separated by the Chaos and a world existed in Darkness, ruled by Elder Gods

End of crazy theory.

I told you I was desperate....

[Tattersail_]

This has been mentioned before, amongst other theories. He could be "alien" to the elder gods but I don't think he would be "alien" to the majority of people on the world of Wu. IMO

[champ]

I speculated this in one of the threads in tCG forum after a drunken ramble with a mate! I'll look for the thread as it had some discussion... I think...

edit

http://forum.malazan...pic=19502&st=40

This post has been edited by champooon: 08 February 2011 - 09:11 AM

[tiam]

This comes up again from time to time. Its perfectly plausibe i suppose but he does seem to simply be an EG from a different realm. It would be too much of a 'why has no one mentioned this before' kind of thing. The EG seem fairly intimate with the CG so for them not to mention it and your only evidence being an obscure quote from I think Krul and Envy in Callows seems unlikely. The point of that conversation was to stress Kruls order out of choas and to highlight that choas was breaking back in contaminating the warrens.

[champ]

There is the interesting tidbit from the tCG Chapter 1...

Quote

Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind

[Ceda Cicero]

champooon, on 08 February 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the interesting tidbit from the tCG Chapter 1...

Quote

Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind

Caught that. Very interesting. Aren't there some theories running around about a connection between FL and the moon? In the context of the moon breaking, this quote would also fit with that theory.

There are also plenty of references from the Crippled God himself that indicate he was once pretty impressive. "I was not always a thing of pain" etc... Still, I think it unlikely that the explanation for Kaminsod's origin is as simple as him being FL.

[Iamme]

Sounds like Big Bang. Goes well with Andii believe.

[nacht]

champooon, on 08 February 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the interesting tidbit from the tCG Chapter 1...

Quote

Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind

Thanks Champooon for the quote, very tantalizing.

Here are some more arguments for this theory.

Spoiler

This is SE's big creation myth, therefore he would do all to keep it secret.

Some more arguments for this, of course mostly of the circumstantial type.


It is oft mentioned that people can see in "darkness" in Kharkanas and Kurald Galain. We also know that Dark taking light as a consort caused a lot of consternation in Kharkanas

The Elder Gods are the first born of Mother Dark, so they existed before Light.

The CG came down approx 119,736 years before Burns sleep. Soon after this Krul created the warrens and Draconus created Dragnipur. If you correlate this to Krul's comment about "Lost, terrified by the birth of light". It seems that CG caused the birth of Light. .

The first empire existed before that, but there is no Hold of Light. (though there is a Hold of Dark)

The Jaghut/Imass wars were 298,665 years before Burns sleep, so predate this event. Ice is very powerful when there is no Sun. The Imass valued Fire, which the book claims is needed to create "Light". "Without fire there is no light" . So I assume they had Fire but no light.

Imass think more of Fire. The original fire was brought to the Imass by Olar Ethil.

Father Light is almost never mentioned though Osserc is. Osserc is merely the champion and is used to throw us away from asking questions about Father Light.

The "shore" could be the point where the "rent" is between the realms of Light and Dark.

Krul could control Starvard Demelian (for the sake of creating the warrens), leading me to think that he is a dragon.

So here is the plausible timeline.

Mother dark asserts order over Chaos.
The birth of the realm of Wu and the Elder Gods. Simultaneously Kharkanas created in Kurald Galain.
Draconus is the consort of Dark.
The birth of Andarist
Jaghut/Imass wars in Wu. Jaghut have Ice, Imass have Fire. Also coexist with K'Chain CheMalle
First Empire and Kallorian empire
The fall of the Crippled God.
Birth of Anomander Rake (not by FL but shows FL's environmental influence by the white hair)
Mother Dark takes CG/FL as consort to cure his pain. Tiste Andii are unhappy about this new arrangement.
The birth of Silchas Ruin (all white because of the secondary influence of adjoining Kurald Liosan)
Dark and Light are happy for a while, creating Shadow and Tiste Edur
Draconus chains Darkness in Dragnipur
EG, TE, TA chain the Crippled God.
TE and TA depart Kharkanas and need a new world. They kick out the K'Chain CheMalle who were already weakened by fighting the Nahruk. Silchas Ruis gets put into the Azath.
Scabandari destroys Kurald Emurlahn by killing the rulers (To do this he must have destroyed the Shadow dragon as well as the champion of Shadow)

S.E/I.C.E like subverting tropes. The Sun always has significant role in Creation Myths but not in S.E's world, where a world exists before the Sun.

[tiam]

As for your timeline Anomandar was the First born of the three brother maybe even the the first born Andii and would therefore not be born after Andarist. I thought about this the other day and if we take the MD was first and Anomander was her first then that technically makes Rake the oldest being in creation more or less

[Iamme]

I don't understand even one third of what SE says but this is my take on whole creation myth:

Elder Gods are considered elemental force. So they cannot exist without actual elements (life, death, water..the whole shebang..)

Mother Dark (or darkness) was there from start (just like our universe so technically mother dark is universe containing seed of chaos).

Chaos is universe going Ka-boom (Big bang). It didn't last long and order was restored (all the forces of nature came to be)

Through chaos (big bang) came Father light and all the "elder gods" (creation of stars, planets and what not)...

I have no clue about anything else (Tiste or Wu) but SE's creation myth sounds exactly like our own.

[Iamme]

champooon, on 08 February 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the interesting tidbit from the tCG Chapter 1...

Quote

Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind

CG doesn't sound either useless or blind. He has name and it's not father light;)

[champ]

Iamme, on 08 February 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

champooon, on 08 February 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the interesting tidbit from the tCG Chapter 1...

Quote

Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind

CG doesn't sound either useless or blind. He has name and it's not father light;)

But do we know what Father Lights name is ? No-uh!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think tCG is FL but it makes for interesting speculation!

Ciceronian, on 08 February 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

champooon, on 08 February 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the interesting tidbit from the tCG Chapter 1...

Quote

Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind

Caught that. Very interesting. Aren't there some theories running around about a connection between FL and the moon? In the context of the moon breaking, this quote would also fit with that theory.

Good point!

This post has been edited by champooon: 08 February 2011 - 04:42 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

While it's an interesting theory there's the problem that in the flashback of the Fall in MT, along with the CG comes a temple adorned with priapic statues which would suggest that before the CG was some sort of sex/love/fertility god. Not exactly what comes to mind when thinking of FL

[nacht]

tiam, on 08 February 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

As for your timeline Anomandar was the First born of the three brother maybe even the the first born Andii and would therefore not be born after Andarist. I thought about this the other day and if we take the MD was first and Anomander was her first then that technically makes Rake the oldest being in creation more or less

Reapers Gale Quote

Quote

Spawn of Mother Dark, yes but there are plenty of those, weren't there? Was there something that set those three apart? Andarist, Anomander, Silchas. What did Clip tell us? Oh, right, nothing. But we saw the tapestries, didn't we? Andarist, like midnight itself. Anomander, with hair of blazing white. And here, Silchas, our walking bloodless abomination, whiter than any corpse but just as friendly. So what caused the great rift between sons and mother? Maybe it wasn't her spreading her legs to Light like a stepfather none of them wanted. Maybe that's all a lie, one of those sweetly convenient ones. Maybe, Seren Peda, it was finding out who their father was.

Anomander is always placed in the middle when children of mother dark are discussed. I can't find a quote that says Anomander is the second son.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

BUt Andarist asks Cutter if Anomander still looks younger than him thanks to his Eleint blood. The question wouldn't have any sense if Andarist was the eldest.

[nacht]

Iamme, on 08 February 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

I don't understand even one third of what SE says but this is my take on whole creation myth:

Elder Gods are considered elemental force. So they cannot exist without actual elements (life, death, water..the whole shebang..)

Mother Dark (or darkness) was there from start (just like our universe so technically mother dark is universe containing seed of chaos).

Chaos is universe going Ka-boom (Big bang). It didn't last long and order was restored (all the forces of nature came to be)

Through chaos (big bang) came Father light and all the "elder gods" (creation of stars, planets and what not)...

I have no clue about anything else (Tiste or Wu) but SE's creation myth sounds exactly like our own.

How does the Big Bang explain life before Light. I am pretty sure SE&ICE dont just reuse the Big Bang trope (that is well know to all of us) but modify it in some manner.

[nacht]

champooon, on 08 February 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

I speculated this in one of the threads in tCG forum after a drunken ramble with a mate! I'll look for the thread as it had some discussion... I think...

edit

http://forum.malazan...pic=19502&st=40

Allright, read this (had to look deep into the thread). You now have a drinking buddy in me . Guiness and some madcap theories please.

Just to fit a few more titbits into the theory.

Spoiler

I think the Pure Dragons are the power source for the warrens. So Wu and it's warrens can have energy even without the "Sun" we are so familiar with. Krul describes KG and Starvard Demelian as the two chambers of the heart that feeds the warrens. Starvard Demelian provides the energy and KG purifies the returned crap.

Edgewalker's job is to maintain the border between Dark,& Light (which is Shadow of course
FA are liosan bastards of killy and Father Light. Liosan are the aliens who live in the realm of father light and they are the souls in the Jade Giants.

[chaosek]

Wouldn't it be odd that if FL was the CG Osserec and Rake keep chaining him? They would know where he would come from and might even be able to mend the situation by bringing him to the home of the Liosan for instance.

[Iamme]

nacht, on 08 February 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

tiam, on 08 February 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

As for your timeline Anomandar was the First born of the three brother maybe even the the first born Andii and would therefore not be born after Andarist. I thought about this the other day and if we take the MD was first and Anomander was her first then that technically makes Rake the oldest being in creation more or less

Reapers Gale Quote

Quote

Spawn of Mother Dark, yes but there are plenty of those, weren't there? Was there something that set those three apart? Andarist, Anomander, Silchas. What did Clip tell us? Oh, right, nothing. But we saw the tapestries, didn't we? Andarist, like midnight itself. Anomander, with hair of blazing white. And here, Silchas, our walking bloodless abomination, whiter than any corpse but just as friendly. So what caused the great rift between sons and mother? Maybe it wasn't her spreading her legs to Light like a stepfather none of them wanted. Maybe that's all a lie, one of those sweetly convenient ones. Maybe, Seren Peda, it was finding out who their father was.

Anomander is always placed in the middle when children of mother dark are discussed. I can't find a quote that says Anomander is the second son.

Anomandris Purake is called the first son. Multiple times I think. Nimander was called son of first son when he was introduced in tBH.

This post has been edited by Iamme: 08 February 2011 - 09:14 PM

[Iamme]

nacht, on 08 February 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

Iamme, on 08 February 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

I don't understand even one third of what SE says but this is my take on whole creation myth:

Elder Gods are considered elemental force. So they cannot exist without actual elements (life, death, water..the whole shebang..)

Mother Dark (or darkness) was there from start (just like our universe so technically mother dark is universe containing seed of chaos).

Chaos is universe going Ka-boom (Big bang). It didn't last long and order was restored (all the forces of nature came to be)

Through chaos (big bang) came Father light and all the "elder gods" (creation of stars, planets and what not)...

I have no clue about anything else (Tiste or Wu) but SE's creation myth sounds exactly like our own.

How does the Big Bang explain life before Light. I am pretty sure SE&ICE dont just reuse the Big Bang trope (that is well know to all of us) but modify it in some manner.

Well as I said before, I don't understand the ramblings of SE, most of the time but I don't believe there was actual life before things came out of chaos. Nothing more than creation BS of various races.