[Bent]

Topic title is a bit dramatic, but fun!

anyway here is my first and last (at least I think its my first, lol) topic in the religion thread.

Hang on, I'll try not to get preachy or sound like I am ranting, but there are a few things I believe you guys should know.



Reading through the Inn, as I usually do while working I came upon a thread by Apt, er, um I mean Roger....http://forum.malazanempire.com/index.php?showtopic=20751&pid=829714&st=0&#entry829714

It is a couple of videos where Bill O'Reilly comments saying that he doesn't accept the scientific explanation of the tides or of our existance in the universe. Several people came on and hit on the fact that he must be ignorant, or at least just a troll, messing with the order of things to get attention, I suppose.

Yet here I am, agreeing with him. Does that make me ignorant? I submit to you that possibly, in your eyes, I must be. But lets looks at what some of those "renowned experts" that Primeatus brought up (quoted here for those too lazy to look at the previous thread) have said

Primateus, on 06 February 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

The saddest part, I think, is that he actually thinks he has an intelligent argument. He has actually deluded himself, this is more common than one would hope for, into thinking that he knows more, that he has outsmarted the worlds most renowned experts. People who actually knows what they're talking about.

That's just sad. But I suspect you're right, he might just be trolling us

Albert Einstein said

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."


I watched a documentary by Ben Stein in which he interviewed Richard Dawkins and walked him through the whole we came from sludge theory, in which Dawkins stated that the only way human life could have possibly been 'created" was if life forms from another galaxy came to earth and made them, because they had evolved to a place where they had the ability to do so (Ben went on to say in commentary at the end of the movie, that Dawkins was ok with creationism, as long as it wasn't God who did the creating, I laughed)

Here is a clip



Now to clarify - Ben was just making a point about intelligent design and why it should be allowed to be studied (by the way the movie is fascinating its called Expelled).

Now to the point - creationism or science is really not the purpose of this thread. This thread is to tell you that as a Christian I am, personally, tired of the bashing that sometimes goes on here.

I get called ignorant or a right wing nut job, or other seriously insulting remarks having to do with my God and my faith. As a Christian I am CALLED to love. I struggle with that sometimes, I have a serious problem with homosexuals for instance, but I am working on it. I am learning to love people despite their issues.

What does that have to do with anything you might ask?

Have you ever tried to explain the color red, as if you were trying to explain it to a blind man? Its the same thing for me. How do you explain the love of God to someone whos never experienced it? All they see is a "church" of people condemning and criticizing their every action. Thats no way to live. As I mature in my Christian walk, I learn this more and more.

So you see, I cant get mad at those who inadvertently call me names, thinking they are only bashing O'reilly, when in fact there are millions of Christians world wide who agree with him, and feel the sting of the comments not intentionally meant for them. But I dont have to take it lying down. I can tell you that, even though you haven't yet felt the love of God, even though you haven't been convinced of your own self worth (because you are all worth something in his eyes). HE still loves you. And so do I.

So I will close by saying this.

I am sorry that you think we are fools, that we arent worth wasting our time on, but I believe you are worth it, although I will no longer try. I am leaving this forum after today, and I dont think I will come back, because I have much more important things to do than to defend my every belief and defend my fellow believers. Know that I am not bitter, or Emo. And I still pray for Goodkind, lost cause though that may be, but I wanted to clear up some things before I left, and this was a good opportunity to do so.

Parting is such sweet sorrow, but and end happens to us all. To those who knew me, I hope you have fond memories, to those who didn't I regret that you missed it. Thanks for the memories, Love always

Bent
aka Chris Watson


(Insert funny last words here)


Wait, I got it - Bubba I'll call you later - my phone is dead, hahahah

Good luck guys

[ansible]

Would you mind going into why you don't believe the tides are caused by the gravity of the moon?

It seems like you are more upset about being in the Christian minority than you are about the actual things you disagree on. The tides can be explained by mathematics - actual equations can predict when they will come, how high they will rise, how long they last, etc. These are real values that are experimentally confirmed. This is nothing like (macro)evolution, which has not been directly observed or recorded. To the best of mankind's knowledge, you are examining those equations and claiming that 1+1 != 2. This isn't high-level quantum mechanics where you have to take some scientist's word on the results. You can do the math yourself. This is high school physics.

This has nothing to do with if you are a Christian or not. If you were a Mormon or atheist or Muslim the same questions would be asked of you.

[Bent]

No, you misunderstand - I am not upset. At all. I just saw the opportunity to put an end once and for all to all of the negative speech that was going on about those of us who believe on day God will disprove your mathematical equations and scientific hypotheses on the REAL reason there are tides.

Sure - for now the moons gravitational pull is the cause of the tides - but my God could remove the moon and keep the tides. Or stop the tides without making the moon change its gravitational pull. My God can create dirt and breathe life into it and make a man. My God can end it all, at any time, for any reason.

Point of note - I dont believe in global warming either, as I believe the climate changes as God wills it. So see - Im a religious fruitcake, cause as much good as science is to the benefit of all, its still incomplete.

Again, the fact that I am leaving the forum has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, its just a good place to clear the air and discuss how I really feel. I will never get you to see the color red, as I am explaining it, any more than you will me. No hard feelings, no emotion really. I simply dont want to continue arguing what red looks like.

[Aptorian]

I'm going to start off by copy pasting my preliminary response in the "O'reilly thread".

Roger Ramjet, on 07 February 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 04:09 PM, said:

I believe that it has and can be explained. I say God, you say science. We disagree in the methods of proof ( although I could use science's argument against itself), but again, I'll make a thread to discuss this in the religion forum, carry on with bashing O'reilly.

I'm waiting for your thread to reply in full but I don't think anyone here is bashing O'reilly for being a Christian or believing in the various fundamental pillars of creation theory.

I'm calling him an idiot because he apparently made it all the way through highschool and college/university with out ever learning how solar systems form, how gravity works, what the tides is, etc. I mean, in his 50 so years of life how did he never once stumble upon something like a national geographic article or a discovery channel episode that in simple terms explained how the big bang creation theory works and how mass and weight have an effect on everything.

I don't have a problem with anyone believing that God created the universe, but believing that the tides are magic! and that "no one" knows where the moon comes from or what the sun is, that is just wilful, startling ignorance from a man who appears to otherwise be well read and generally well informed if very opinionated. Either the man must be obtuse or he is playing dumb to appeal to the die hard creationists who refuse to believe in any kind of science that goes against the literal word of the bible.

O'reilly is flat out stating that nobody knows how these things came to be or how they work. This is deceit or ignorance. Call it what you will.

It would be another thing he stated that "Scientists have a theory that the moon was created after a large object collided with the young earth causing a large chunk of the planet to get dislodged and in time form the satellite we today call the Moon, how ever I don't believe this is true, I think God created the moon to help shed light during the night".

This would have been perfectly acceptable. Instead he comes off as an asshole who is as dismissive of "science" as Atheists are of Christianity.

Surely there can be a middle ground where one does not have to exclude the other.

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Albert Einstein said

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

I have similar beliefs in that I find the universe shockingly well ordered and convenient in the ways that it has formed and how human beings have evolved. I also think that it is possible for there to be more between heaven and earth than science can explain at this point.

That's why I call myself an agnostic bordering on Atheism, but I do not think that just because the world seems well ordered that means Jehova has to be the one responsible for it. I could be Gaia and Uranus who did it. Or maybe we are living inside the Matrix. Or maybe everything is just a dream and my mind is making everything up and that is why mathematical theories seem so logical.

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

I watched a documentary by Ben Stein in which he interviewed Richard Dawkins and walked him through the whole we came from sludge theory, in which Dawkins stated that the only way human life could have possibly been 'created" was if life forms from another galaxy came to earth and made them, because they had evolved to a place where they had the ability to do so (Ben went on to say in commentary at the end of the movie, that Dawkins was ok with creationism, as long as it wasn't God who did the creating, I laughed)

Here is a clip



Now to clarify - Ben was just making a point about intelligent design and why it should be allowed to be studied (by the way the movie is fascinating its called Expelled).

First of all, Dawkins did not state that "the only way" life can exist is if it came from another galaxy or was created by super aliens. He stated it was a possibility. Which it is. Just like it is a possibility that God created everything we know in 6 days.

It's all a matter how you look at it, and unfortunately when it comes to the origin of life we only have theories. How ever, life does certainly not have to originate from another galaxy or even outside our own solar system. All though I do believe the most accepted theory is that bacteria/amoeba like life first came to earth riding on an asteroid. We know this is possible because we have found bacteria that are capable of withstanding the extreme conditions of outer space.

But I remember recently reading an article on how, theoretically, it is possible for the basic elements to combine in such a way that as a fluke organic life emerges. Which after all is what the theory of Evolution is all about. Random mutation. Meaning life could have spontaneously started on Earth all of its own.

Second of all. Dawkins is a well educated idiot and the more I see of him the more I wonder how the hell he has managed to get so much attention. That was a terrible performance on his part. He came off sounding very unsure of himself and very much on the defence in that interview. I don't know if that is because it was early in his crusade against Christianity or what was going on.

Dawkins is not an official appointed spokes person for the scientific community in general, thank god (see what I did there), he's just one man who does not like the effect that Christianity and similar religions have on our societies. He's entitled to his opinions. Just like Bill O'reilly, I guess, is entitled to believe that the tides go in and the tides go out with out any miscommunication... what ever the hell that means.

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Now to the point - creationism or science is really not the purpose of this thread. This thread is to tell you that as a Christian I am, personally, tired of the bashing that sometimes goes on here.

I get called ignorant or a right wing nut job, or other seriously insulting remarks having to do with my God and my faith. As a Christian I am CALLED to love. I struggle with that sometimes, I have a serious problem with homosexuals for instance, but I am working on it. I am learning to love people despite their issues.

What does that have to do with anything you might ask?

Have you ever tried to explain the color red, as if you were trying to explain it to a blind man? Its the same thing for me. How do you explain the love of God to someone whos never experienced it? All they see is a "church" of people condemning and criticizing their every action. Thats no way to live. As I mature in my Christian walk, I learn this more and more.

So you see, I cant get mad at those who inadvertently call me names, thinking they are only bashing O'reilly, when in fact there are millions of Christians world wide who agree with him, and feel the sting of the comments not intentionally meant for them. But I dont have to take it lying down. I can tell you that, even though you haven't yet felt the love of God, even though you haven't been convinced of your own self worth (because you are all worth something in his eyes). HE still loves you. And so do I.

Forgive me for being blunt here, but when they hell did you become this thin skinned? You may not be emo but you sure are channelling some kind of Christian persecution complex right now.

You are welcome to believe what you want, but I will not hold my tongue when an authority figure, a person who speaks to thousands, millions? of people every day, acts like a total jack ass and shows a complete lack of understand of fundamental principals that I could demonstrate for you with simple science experiments they teach children in kindergarden. If a person chooses to step forth on TV and state with absolute conviction that mars doesn't have any moons even though you can see them through a telescope, then I will call him ignorant. If he then continues to spread this nonsense, that nobody knows how the tides work, then I will take offence.

It is fine if you want to say that god is the one who makes the water level rise and fall across the planet. But can you prove that God is doing it?

Scientists can give you precise calculations of the forces at work between the Earth and the Moon. Satellites observed the effect . Hell people knew this stuff in ancient times. It is not heresy it is an observable phenomenon.

God asks that you simply have faith. Science will do its utmost to convince you through evidence. I am too much of a cynic to take the idea of physics and chemistry on faith.

If you have read up on the major scientific theories but continue to believe in the Creationist theory, then you are not ignorant. Ignorance implies that you are uninformed. Rather I guess you're are possessed of a singular conviction that is between you and God. But if you just chose to reject anything besides what was written in a heavily edited collection of stories thousands of years ago by a culture that is in most regards a lot more primitive than ours... well... Good luck with that.

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

I am sorry that you think we are fools, that we arent worth wasting our time on, but I believe you are worth it, although I will no longer try. I am leaving this forum after today, and I dont think I will come back, because I have much more important things to do than to defend my every belief and defend my fellow believers. Know that I am not bitter, or Emo. And I still pray for Goodkind, lost cause though that may be, but I wanted to clear up some things before I left, and this was a good opportunity to do so.

Parting is such sweet sorrow, but and end happens to us all. To those who knew me, I hope you have fond memories, to those who didn't I regret that you missed it. Thanks for the memories, Love always

Bent
aka Chris Watson

(Insert funny last words here)

Wait, I got it - Bubba I'll call you later - my phone is dead, hahahah

Good luck guys

Wait... you're leaving the Malazan Forums all together or just this sub forum?

Don't brood out on us all of a sudden!

This post has been edited by Roger Ramjet: 07 February 2011 - 06:56 PM

[Obdigore]

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

No, you misunderstand - I am not upset. At all. I just saw the opportunity to put an end once and for all to all of the negative speech that was going on about those of us who believe on day God will disprove your mathematical equations and scientific hypotheses on the REAL reason there are tides.

Sure - for now the moons gravitational pull is the cause of the tides - but my God could remove the moon and keep the tides. Or stop the tides without making the moon change its gravitational pull. My God can create dirt and breathe life into it and make a man. My God can end it all, at any time, for any reason.

So even though the science and math is there, you say it does not matter because your god is all powerful and could change it at any time he/she/it would like?

Quote

Point of note - I dont believe in global warming either, as I believe the climate changes as God wills it. So see - Im a religious fruitcake, cause as much good as science is to the benefit of all, its still incomplete.

Again, the fact that I am leaving the forum has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, its just a good place to clear the air and discuss how I really feel. I will never get you to see the color red, as I am explaining it, any more than you will me. No hard feelings, no emotion really. I simply dont want to continue arguing what red looks like.

Regarding the Tides, you do agree that they are that way because of the moon, but you believe that your God created the moon and the tides to function that way, correct?

Regarding global warming, do you believe it is getting warmer, regardless of the 'cause' of the warming?

Because neither of those things seem to be what the video clips show of o'Reilly claim that from what I can tell, just that he says there is no reason to learn, to examine, to investigate, because 'God Wills'. Do you agree with that?

Also, wait, you are leaving the forum? Why Bent? PM me?

[Primateus]

I used to see the colour red, as you so metaphorically put it, I don't anymore. Yeah, I used to believe in god, but as I got older I found I could not continue to do so and stay honest with myself. I don't need god to know my own self-worth, and to suggest I do is utterly ridiculous. Like so many others I am, today, much better off without believing in god than I was when I did believe.

And before someone goes on about anger or hate, let me tell you, I don't hate god, nor am I angry. being angry or hating something that you do not believe exists is simply absurd and a gigantic waste of time.

Yes, I have "something against" willfully ignorant people. It's not hate or anger, more along the line of pity. It's a pity, because the universe is so grand and magnificent and so full of wonder that to claim that it is all the result of god that seems so very much like it was created by the worst kind of people 3k years ago is a damn shame.

And for the record, I don't dislike you or anything, Bent, I think it's a shame that you believe what you do, but that's your right and I respect that. But the universe and life is so much more fun without god. Trust me, I know, because I used to see the colour red too. Now I see it's just a colour.

[Bent]

Leaving altogether - more important things to do.

I was made outreach coordinator of my church (only been there six months or so and was given the job, something I am very proud of) this consists of community out reach involving meeting needs (giving firewood to people who without it would freeze, helping people move, feeding the hungry, helping the homeless etc)

Missionary work (see above but outside of the community)

Working with Charities (we are helping a charity start up - love Inc which means Love In the Name of Christ) - I may take a position on their board of directors.

I am basically a ghost here anyway with all of those responsibilities. I just saw the oppurtunity to use your thread and the responses to raise this subject from the dead (see what I did there).

So I combined my point in your thread with a goodbye. Not Brooding out, I was leaving anyway, but I thought instead of going out like brood, I would got out on a momentous (if slightly self serving) topic.

[Vengeance]

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 07:02 PM, said:

Leaving altogether - more important things to do.

I was made outreach coordinator of my church (only been there six months or so and was given the job, something I am very proud of) this consists of community out reach involving meeting needs (giving firewood to people who without it would freeze, helping people move, feeding the hungry, helping the homeless etc)

Missionary work (see above but outside of the community)

Working with Charities (we are helping a charity start up - love Inc which means Love In the Name of Christ) - I may take a position on their board of directors.

I am basically a ghost here anyway with all of those responsibilities. I just saw the oppurtunity to use your thread and the responses to raise this subject from the dead (see what I did there).

So I combined my point in your thread with a goodbye. Not Brooding out, I was leaving anyway, but I thought instead of going out like brood, I would got out on a momentous (if slightly self serving) topic.

Dammit Bent don't leave. Just keep going how your going. Posting once in a while when something catches your eye. The charity work sounds like something that you would be good at, and I wish you nothing but the best.

[Aptorian]

What is your opinion of the Church accepting many scientific discoveries and theories despite them going against what is written in the Bible?

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 07:02 PM, said:

I was made outreach coordinator of my church (only been there six months or so and was given the job, something I am very proud of) this consists of community out reach involving meeting needs (giving firewood to people who without it would freeze, helping people move, feeding the hungry, helping the homeless etc)

Missionary work (see above but outside of the community)

Working with Charities (we are helping a charity start up - love Inc which means Love In the Name of Christ) - I may take a position on their board of directors.

Good for you. You've chosen probably the most noble way of life I can imagine. Having that kind of vision and commitment is something I could envy.

In a years time or when ever you get the time would you consider coming back and telling us about the experience. Sound taxing.

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 07:02 PM, said:

I am basically a ghost here anyway with all of those responsibilities. I just saw the oppurtunity to use your thread and the responses to raise this subject from the dead (see what I did there).

So I combined my point in your thread with a goodbye. Not Brooding out, I was leaving anyway, but I thought instead of going out like brood, I would got out on a momentous (if slightly self serving) topic.

You're totally brooding out.

[Bent]

Stop being all sad and stuff - Im not dying, just not going to allow my time to be taken up posting endlessly on a forum (not insulting any one of you who do, Im an ass, lol) and the best way to do that is to make it where I cant post anymore. Some of you do it when you have finals at school etc., I am doing it cause I have some important stuff to do that I want to force myself to not be able to post here, I'll still be able to view as far as I know, and I might be like Brood and post again later. The topic doesnt go with the goodbye, except that its a topic I enjoy discussing and the goodbye lets me do it without worrying so much about the comments in the thread - weird I know, but there it is.

[Vengeance]

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

Stop being all sad and stuff - Im not dying, just not going to allow my time to be taken up posting endlessly on a forum (not insulting any one of you who do, Im an ass, lol) and the best way to do that is to make it where I cant post anymore. Some of you do it when you have finals at school etc., I am doing it cause I have some important stuff to do that I want to force myself to not be able to post here, I'll still be able to view as far as I know, and I might be like Brood and post again later. The topic doesnt go with the goodbye, except that its a topic I enjoy discussing and the goodbye lets me do it without worrying so much about the comments in the thread - weird I know, but there it is.

Don't delete your profile or anything like that Bent. Just have the will power to not post... Or have Bubba ban you for a while.

[RodeoRanch]

Bummer you're leaving. Best of luck out there.

[Bent]

Vengeance, on 07 February 2011 - 07:19 PM, said:

Don't delete your profile or anything like that Bent. Just have the will power to not post... Or have Bubba ban you for a while.

That was the plan

And Rodeo - thanks.

Now back on to the ACTUAL TOPIC (bunch of spammers)

Apt - that choice was an easy one, the work is more fulfilling, and eventually I hope to do it full time. As for you thinking I am brooding out, Im not wearing black make-up.

The point of - The church accepting science, in my opinion its fine, as God created man to learn and grow using our own minds, however, and the point I think o'reilly failed to convey in his 3 minute video, was that we do so with full knowledge that no matter the science we use to explain it, God is capable of scrapping the whole thing and wrecking the system. Meanwhile we also realize that he probably wont do that until the end of the world, because that would be proof of existence, but he wants us to believe on faith alone.

Obi - I'll pm you later, to touch on your points - O'reilly was talking to the people who in his words "attack" him, for his belief in a creator to explain the tides etc. He didnt go into detail, he just argued the fact that hes being asked to explain the tides, and science cant explain it all either.

Primeateus - don't let this sound condescending please, I dont mean it in such a way, but I am sincerely sorry that whatever happened to cause you to lose your faith, happened. It happens a lot out there, but I went for a long while without an actual spiritual connection to God and it wasnt freeing, quite the opposite, it was suffocating. I felt quite alone in some pretty terrible places.


By the way, I am totally using this thread to try and convert some of you. I am called to do 2 things in life - Love and increase the kingdom of heaven. Sounds all evangelical and stuff, but I want to make sure everyone knows my motives, lol

Also, I am about to head home, we'll talk more then.

[Primateus]

Nothing "happened" to make me lose my faith, as I said, I harbour no ill feelings as that would be absurd. I simply discovered that the christian notion of morality, the christian god and what would be required of me to continue to believe would make forsake my own principles. Oh, and the fact that the more I thought about it the more god seemed man-made.

So don't feel sorry, I got over it and I am much better off it. Yeah, show me irrefutable evidence and I'll believe, but because christian dogma conflicts with my own worldview I will NOT worship!

This post has been edited by Primateus: 07 February 2011 - 07:56 PM

[Grief]

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

The point of - The church accepting science, in my opinion its fine, as God created man to learn and grow using our own minds, however, and the point I think o'reilly failed to convey in his 3 minute video, was that we do so with full knowledge that no matter the science we use to explain it, God is capable of scrapping the whole thing and wrecking the system. Meanwhile we also realize that he probably wont do that until the end of the world, because that would be proof of existence, but he wants us to believe on faith alone.

On your point about a system-do you then believe that science is correct as of just now, but God could make it so this was not so?

As in, what we have observed is the system God has created, and while he could change it, the observations are still correct(i.e, the moon causes the tides-it may not necessarily always have to, but currently does).

The follow up question from that is whether or not you take the bible to be the word of God or not. If you believe science is our observation of the system(which to me it does seem to be-regardless of where the system came from), then what is your feeling on things that are suggested by our observation of the system but seem to contradict the bible?

Regardless of anything else, you are choosing to help people, so I wish you the best.

[Bent]

Grief, on 07 February 2011 - 08:44 PM, said:

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

The point of - The church accepting science, in my opinion its fine, as God created man to learn and grow using our own minds, however, and the point I think o'reilly failed to convey in his 3 minute video, was that we do so with full knowledge that no matter the science we use to explain it, God is capable of scrapping the whole thing and wrecking the system. Meanwhile we also realize that he probably wont do that until the end of the world, because that would be proof of existence, but he wants us to believe on faith alone.

1. On your point about a system-do you then believe that science is correct as of just now, but God could make it so this was not so?

As in, what we have observed is the system God has created, and while he could change it, the observations are still correct(i.e, the moon causes the tides-it may not necessarily always have to, but currently does).

2. The follow up question from that is whether or not you take the bible to be the word of God or not. If you believe science is our observation of the system(which to me it does seem to be-regardless of where the system came from), then what is your feeling on things that are suggested by our observation of the system but seem to contradict the bible?

Regardless of anything else, you are choosing to help people, so I wish you the best.

1. I believe science is correct because God allows it to be, and can change it at any time

2.Such as?

Also note- Im no expert on either subject, these are merely observations from a christian (general word, because dogmatic christians such as the one Primeatus refer to in his Christian Dogma part of his reply, doesnt really embody the true spirit of Christ).

@ Prime - Again, Dogmatic Christianity is a tough nut to crack. Less Dogmatic - When asked which law of the commandments was the most important, Jesus answered, Love God, and then love your neighbors. No dogma to that IMO, simply love.

[Aptorian]

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

@ Prime - Again, Dogmatic Christianity is a tough nut to crack. Less Dogmatic - When asked which law of the commandments was the most important, Jesus answered, Love God, and then love your neighbors. No dogma to that IMO, simply love.

That's the thing I think doesn't get enough attention.

Forget who created what. Who is going to hell. What makes god angry.

Focus on charity, humility, patience, understanding and peace.

If churches turned into schools of philosophy instead of houses of faith I believe they would have more success.

This post has been edited by Roger Ramjet: 07 February 2011 - 10:07 PM

[Bent]

Roger Ramjet, on 07 February 2011 - 10:07 PM, said:

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

@ Prime - Again, Dogmatic Christianity is a tough nut to crack. Less Dogmatic - When asked which law of the commandments was the most important, Jesus answered, Love God, and then love your neighbors. No dogma to that IMO, simply love.

That's the thing I think doesn't get enough attention.

Forget who created what. Who is going to hell. What makes god angry.

Focus on charity, humility, patience, understanding and peace.

If churches turned into schools of philosophy instead of houses of faith I believe they would have more success.

Working on that, but most people still have trouble believing in the diety that is god, and his son jesus christ, as the messiah.

You forgot, love everyone AND INCREASE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...in order to increase the kingdom you have to admit that you dont control anything and God's grace allows you to live. As appreciation for that, you work for the betterment of humanity, IN HIS NAME.

See kind of the catch that most people can't overlook, but hey, if it was easy, everyone would already do it.

[Aptorian]

What type of Christianity do you belong to Bent?

I believe the Protestant church preaches that everyone is going to heaven whether they believe or not. I think. It's been a long time since I went to church practice.

[Primateus]

Why do we have to work for the betterment of humanity in gods name when it is a far more noble thing to work for because it is the right thing to do? God isn't a neccessary component for compassion, altruism or other such noble virtues. I would actually go so far as to say that doing good in the name of god in the light of eternal damnation in hell if you don't accept jesus as lord seems coercive.

Sure, love your fellow man, it's certainly better than hate, but don't do it because god commands it, don't do good because jesus allegedly died for your sins (a sacrfice, I might add, none of us asked for) No, be good and love your fellow man because it is the right thing to do, that is enough! God is unneccessary.

And in case the discussion moves in that direction let me defuse it preemptively, I do not need god to know right from wrong.