[Silencer]

It's a tragedy. You can tell because Dresden's humour is often misplaced and he tends to run his mouth when he shouldn't, in ways that are not light and fluffy. That's assuming you want to go with such a straightforward appellation like "Tragedy" or "Comedy", because I don't think it fits squarely in either with ease.

And plot-centric? Howso? Or do you just mean 'episodic', in that the plot forms the basic vehicle for everything which follows?

[Abyss]

HoosierDaddy, on 03 April 2011 - 05:40 AM, said:

You need to read Alera, Abyss. Love me some Dresden, but Alera scratches that itch in a different way.

I hear you, but i'm having the hardest time just committing to it. It's like the six books just sit there at the top of the TRP..., taunting me...

Silencer, on 03 April 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

...Though if Ghost Story is as crazy as Changes, or worse, or it's another cliffhanger, I'm going to be screwed in that plan. I'll also probably be in a horrid state by the time WK finally rolls around. O.o

I wouldn't be surprised if GS is a bit more low key than CHANGES... that's usually the pattern anyways... massive cast of thousands ker-sploody finale book followed by slightly more inter-personal conflict book (with a healthy dose of ker-sploody).

Silencer, on 03 April 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

I honestly didn't have that problem. The stories which are predominantly plot-based, rather than characters-based, maybe...but as I said upthread, my real enjoyment out of this series are the relationships and character development arcs, and the "Whodunnit" aspect is more of a vehicle to bring those out/together.

Agreed. And almost in spite of myself i find i power thru the Dresdencrack and miss a lot of little details.

Quote

Though, I will admit, I almost didn't bother reading the big finale of White Night the second time around, but I'm glad I did.
...

And seriously, that's one of the best.

Nicodimas, on 05 April 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

...since it is so plot-centric is Comedy or Tragedy?

I am firmly on the opionion its a tragedy atm....

Silencer, on 05 April 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

...I don't think it fits squarely in either with ease. ...

I tend to agree. There are too many elements of both to most of the books, tho some lean more one way than the other.

If Nic meant CHANGES specifically, however, i'd say it goes more to tragedy, with a healthy dose of 'bravery in the face of...'.

[Tapper]

I finished it this weekend, and I've gotta say, I disliked the book. Storm Front aside, this was the worst of the Dresden novels.
It has been a while since I picked up Dresden, and that may have a lot to do with it.

The book kicks off with a serious deus ex machina, reawakens both Susan's and Harry's naughty appetite for each other after eight years of it gathering dust and him phantasizing about Murphy, then goes *cough, how original cough* all the way of American Gods by introducing Odin as a god on earth (although I did liked the way Hugin and Munin are his receptionists, and their description), then drags up Maya references as the source of the Red Court (which kinda makes me go 'ehm, with the jaguar warriors, shouldn't that be Aztec?' The Maya revered the jaguar, but to my knowledge, didn't have a warrior caste for it - but I'll assume Butcher did his research correctly).

Ok, so that is all over the top, but it is also kind of Dresden. So what makes me so angry about this? Mr. Big Wizard himself. All the while, instead of acting sensible for once and going for his own best interests in getting people on board to help him, Harry shoots of his mouth, and none of his friends, relatives and comrades in arms even raises an eyebrow. Sure, it's a characteristic of him, sure, it may be his own way of stress relief, sure, the books wouldn't be the same without the bad puns - but unlike the regular Dresden crack story, this is really personal for him, not professional, and not through his own fault/ actions, and for once, he really WANTS to succeed, rather than him having to because his own ass is on the line or the world will perish.

The entire book, he mentions how nothing will get in his way, how he must do this, how determined he is, what sacrifices he will make - and he forgets all that to crack bad jokes the second he can. So, how determined to acquire allies are you really, Mister Dresden, when for one of the first few times in the books you really have something to lose that you feel strong about?

The interesting stuff in the book is imho supressed by all the regular and not very interesting fireworks.
For books, I've been waiting for Harry to become Winter Knight. Huzzah, he becomes it. And he railroads Mab to the end to get there on his own terms. Even more awesome. Now, I had expected him to do this on his terms, but look at what Mab has to do to get to keep him once he is hers? The first price is the Winter Knight going to war against the Red, and I expect that meant Winter going to war. Second, she has to risk her secondant (Leah). Third, she allows her Knight to call up his own allies and honor his own alliances. Fourth, he may well die before he ever is of use to her, with all the above repercussions also factored in. Fifth, he gets into issues with the Erlking. So, what does Mab gain from this apart from a lot of extra butt hurt? Not a word on that subject.

Thomas hasn't been developed in ages (well, maybe in a short story, but I can't get my hands on those). Marcone? Cameo, when he too should know what Dresden will mean now he is Winter Knight, and Marcone plays ball. Ivy? Wants to help and actually wants to cheat for him because he was nice to her once five years ago, if I read it well (she couldn't tell Harry, but Kincaid said she could tell someone else, so the loophole was there) - no matter that he has called on her several times to save his bacon. Murphy? OK, her life sucks, and they are great friends, but ehm, don't you think she all throws it away a little too fast, and to then go on a sword fighting streak with a broadsword (how many martial artists train with that kind of bladed weapon?) like she's secretly Lancelot du Lac's daughter, outshining even Sanya? Eh, yeah.

Not to mention that now, Harry can apparently loan out the swords to people who have no intention of picking it up permanently, including a half vampire. Isn't that sacrilege?

The dynamics in the White Council, which we got a bit of a cameo of, the relationship between the Raiths, Harry's establishment as Winter Knight and thus as Mab's representative in Chicago, Molly finally becoming more than the eye-candy assistant who can disappeaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr.... none of it is there, and it is overdue we saw some more of that. And then someone shoots him, too (the way Kincaid said he would do it), and oh so few people know where he is staying...

When I put the book down, my money was on Thomas. He knows where Harry stays, after all, and he has plenty of reasons, and I can understand him, too.
If I were standing in his shoes, I'd want my life back too rather than having to act on behalf of my brother whenever Harry needs something with monstrous strength, charm and diplomacy, only to be then treated as said monster without so much as a thank you when Thomas needs to replenish the energy/health he expended for Harry.

The least Harry could do next time he calls on Thomas is make sure there is some bimbo nearby willing to sate his appetite, but hey, never happens.

All in all, the book was a bit too easy for me and it kinda bugs me. However, the weird thing is: when I get a chance to pick up Ghost Story in paperback, I'll probably devour it in a day.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

...The entire book, he mentions how nothing will get in his way, how he must do this, how determined he is, what sacrifices he will make - and he forgets all that to crack bad jokes the second he can. So, how determined to acquire allies are you really, Mister Dresden, when for one of the first few times in the books you really have something to lose that you feel strong about?
...

Reread the exchange with Uriel and then Mab.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 05 April 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

...The entire book, he mentions how nothing will get in his way, how he must do this, how determined he is, what sacrifices he will make - and he forgets all that to crack bad jokes the second he can. So, how determined to acquire allies are you really, Mister Dresden, when for one of the first few times in the books you really have something to lose that you feel strong about?
...

Reread the exchange with Uriel and then Mab.

This.

[amphibian]

Murph has been strongly developed all along as the probable best candidate to have Fidelacchius. It's been... several books now (can't remember when the hints started). Plus there's been investigation into Murph's lineage within the books. Not a deus ex machina at all.

Dresden was "nice" to Ivy five years ago? Try "rescued her from being captured, tortured and nearly turned into a Denariian". He's also the one who named her and possibly the only human being that she comes into contact with who treats her like a real person.

Lea was never threatened by the vampires. Mab didn't have to worry about that. Dresden, on the other hand, was in trouble several times. We've seen Mab do without a functional Winter Knight for years now, but having Dresden be captured by the Red Court would have been bad. So... Lea went along and if by some freak cosmic occurrence, Lea gets hurt or dies, she's already crazy and not necessarily essential to Winter's operations and plans.

[Abyss]

Also, there are all kinds of hints at Harry being Future Important - loathe as i am to accuse Butcher of relying on that trope - which would justify Mab being willing to gamble somewhat on locking him down. In theory, the Outsiders and/or an ascendent Black Council (or an overtly hostlie White Council) are all bad things for the Fae.

Plus sending Lea along meant worse case Lea was there to extract Dresden and screw the rest of it, daughter and all.

[Use Of Weapons]

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

... introducing Odin as a god on earth (although I did liked the way Hugin and Munin are his receptionists, and their description)

This was made clear a few books ago, when Gard talked about her boss. You draw your own conclusions, I guess, but I immediately thought that if a Valkyrie is physically active, and referring to her boss as the CEO of her company, that's pretty much a guarantee that we'll be seeing Odin in the flesh sooner or later.

Besides -- Tom Holt got there first with Odds and Gods

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

The entire book, he mentions how nothing will get in his way, how he must do this, how determined he is, what sacrifices he will make - and he forgets all that to crack bad jokes the second he can. So, how determined to acquire allies are you really, Mister Dresden, when for one of the first few times in the books you really have something to lose that you feel strong about?

That made it more real to me, actually. If you know anyone who cracks wise like Dresden, you'll know they have pretty much no brain/mouth filter, and however destructive it might be to their wider ambitions, they're gonna let rip with that awful pun/double entendre/miserable quip.

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Thomas hasn't been developed in ages (well, maybe in a short story, but I can't get my hands on those).

Um, you mean apart from being the focus for the last book, even if not on stage until the end? The slowly building tension around his 'tiny bites' strategy at the hairdressers, which you just knew was going nowhere, and finally it does? You call that lack of development?

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Murphy? OK, her life sucks, and they are great friends, but ehm, don't you think she all throws it away a little too fast, and to then go on a sword fighting streak with a broadsword (how many martial artists train with that kind of bladed weapon?) like she's secretly Lancelot du Lac's daughter, outshining even Sanya? Eh, yeah.

Fidelacchius is a katana, which Murpjhy will have been training with since about a year after starting any style of aikido.

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Not to mention that now, Harry can apparently loan out the swords to people who have no intention of picking it up permanently, including a half vampire. Isn't that sacrilege?

It's made clear in the swords' first introduction that it's immoral use that breaks their power. And while Thomas, a full vampire, couldn't touch Amoracchius, Susan is only a half-turned, and hasn't taken the final irrevocable step that would make her a full nasty and (IMO) unable to touch the sword.

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

The least Harry could do next time he calls on Thomas is make sure there is some bimbo nearby willing to sate his appetite, but hey, never happens.

I think someone just wants to see Thomas get it on all the way with someone on-screen And I'm with you there. But seriously, Harry isn't going to be doing anything like that -- really, this is just wishful thinking.



Also -- Wikipedia has the title of the novel after Ghost Story as Cold Days, not Winter Knight (good thing too, too many books in the series already with XXX (K)night as the title).

This post has been edited by jitsukerr: 06 April 2011 - 03:05 PM

[Abyss]

jitsukerr, on 06 April 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

... introducing Odin as a god on earth (although I did liked the way Hugin and Munin are his receptionists, and their description)

This was made clear a few books ago, when Gard talked about her boss. You draw your own conclusions, I guess, but I immediately thought that if a Valkyrie is physically active, and referring to her boss as the CEO of her company, that's pretty much a guarantee that we'll be seeing Odin in the flesh sooner or later.

Besides -- Tom Holt got there first with Odds and Gods

Iirc Odin also makes the point (tho Gaiman got there first ) that most gods who have not found a new 'job' have faded away.

Quote

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Thomas hasn't been developed in ages (well, maybe in a short story, but I can't get my hands on those).

Um, you mean apart from being the focus for the last book, even if not on stage until the end? The slowly building tension around his 'tiny bites' strategy at the hairdressers, which you just knew was going nowhere, and finally it does? You call that lack of development?

And see also BACK-UP.

My only issue with Thomas was that things between him and Harry seemed borderline hostile at the end of SMALL FAVOUR so their cooperation in CHANGES seemed way too chummy.

Quote

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Murphy? OK, her life sucks, and they are great friends, but ehm, don't you think she all throws it away a little too fast, and to then go on a sword fighting streak with a broadsword (how many martial artists train with that kind of bladed weapon?) like she's secretly Lancelot du Lac's daughter, outshining even Sanya? Eh, yeah.

Fidelacchius is a katana, which Murpjhy will have been training with since about a year after starting any style of aikido.

Exactly.

Quote

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Not to mention that now, Harry can apparently loan out the swords to people who have no intention of picking it up permanently, including a half vampire. Isn't that sacrilege?

It's made clear in the swords' first introduction that it's immoral use that breaks their power. And while Thomas, a full vampire, couldn't touch Amoracchius, Susan is only a half-turned, and hasn't taken the final irrevocable step that would make her a full nasty and (IMO) unable to touch the sword.

More to the point, it's clearly stated that as Susan is wielding the sword specifically to save her daughter, and with that as her motive there is no risk to the sword.

The beauty of this plot point is that Harry IS breaking out every tool he has.. there's no 'oh, the sword must remain hidden until its rightful user pulls it from a stone and/or my hallway'... Nope, it's daughter in danger... sword of God on hand... use it.

Tapper, on 05 April 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

The least Harry could do next time he calls on Thomas is make sure there is some bimbo nearby willing to sate his appetite, but hey, never happens.

Other than Molly almost every time

Quote

Also -- Wikipedia has the title of the novel after Ghost Story as Cold Days, not Winter Knight (good thing too, too many books in the series already with XXX (K)night as the title).

Good move. i admit i thought yet another '(K)Night' title was a little odd, and COLD DAYS still works as a play on words.

[Tapper]

OK, so I overreacted (and got the swords' identity wrong, et cetera.....)

And forgot the whole Gard thing without really forgetting she's a Valkyrie. Mea culpa.

I do still think a couple of points still stand. The role of Harry as Winter Knight going into conflict with the Red court is still one.

I have no qualms with Harry pulling every stunt he can. But I do still find it odd that Harry can loan out the swords in the first place - he could have done that ages ago for special missions with people that do good. Either he hands them out to someone who he feels is the right wielder if he is their Keeper, or he can lend them to whoever he wants as if he was a Librarian of Sharp Implements, but there is no middle ground imho and essentially, he is now handing the swords out for selfish purposes.
I still find it odd Murphy is outfighting Sanya when he has being doing this for years in lethal combat against supernatural stuff and she trains in her spare time in a dojo against non-lethal opponents who wield weaponry according to a pre-ordained style, even if she has the most fighting knowledge per inch between the two of them.

Quote

Dresden was "nice" to Ivy five years ago? Try "rescued her from being captured, tortured and nearly turned into a Denariian". He's also the one who named her and possibly the only human being that she comes into contact with who treats her like a real person.

Yes. And now she is mid-teenage, and the function of Archive should have been far more to the fore of her mind, and the Archive is impartial. Besides, Kincaid is there, and who knows what, good or bad, has happened to her off-screen? It is an odd world if everything is stagnant but for the Chicago area.

Quote

Lea was never threatened by the vampires. Mab didn't have to worry about that. Dresden, on the other hand, was in trouble several times. We've seen Mab do without a functional Winter Knight for years now, but having Dresden be captured by the Red Court would have been bad. So... Lea went along and if by some freak cosmic occurrence, Lea gets hurt or dies, she's already crazy and not necessarily essential to Winter's operations and plans.

Lea is also represented as Mab's secondant and one of her more powerful assistants, iirc - which I may not, there are enough bottle sized gaps in my Dresden memory already to have that come as a surprise

As for Thomas' development: the only development we get is how he deals with food and that he goes back to Lara and the ways of the Raith. But nothing about Justine besides her cameo as Lara's errant girl in Turn Coat showing she still loves him, any new pets he may have acquired to feed on, life style (he mentions crashing three sports cars in one year)... and he kept the boat, and despite being back in the Raith family, is still independent enough to aid Harry in a major war. It's a bit of a shame.

I'd love a re-read of the entire Dresden files, but the books are in storage until late summer or so.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 06 April 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:

...I do still think a couple of points still stand. The role of Harry as Winter Knight going into conflict with the Red court is still one.

... I do still find it odd that Harry can loan out the swords in the first place ...

...I still find it odd Murphy is outfighting Sanya ...

... the function of Archive should have been far more to the fore of her mind, and the Archive is impartial....

Maybe i'm missing something here Tapper but these comments seem to amount to 'i disagree with how the guy who created these characters and this world is writing them'.... but on point...

Harry apparently has the swords as part of some divine plan. If God doesn't want Harry loaning them out, God can smote him. Father Whatsisface, Michael and Sanya all know Harry is holding onto two swords and none of them have said boo about it. Quite the opposite. So does Uriel for that matter.

Murphy didn't outfight Sanya. She got a brief powerup from Bob and apprently divine intervention when Team Dresden needed it to fight off the Lords of Outer Night.

And the Archive refused to help Harry specifically because she is the Archive, so i don't know what you're referring to there.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 06 April 2011 - 06:29 PM, said:

Tapper, on 06 April 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:

...I do still think a couple of points still stand. The role of Harry as Winter Knight going into conflict with the Red court is still one.

... I do still find it odd that Harry can loan out the swords in the first place ...

...I still find it odd Murphy is outfighting Sanya ...

... the function of Archive should have been far more to the fore of her mind, and the Archive is impartial....

Maybe i'm missing something here Tapper but these comments seem to amount to 'i disagree with how the guy who created these characters and this world is writing them'.... but on point...

Sowwy if I give a whiney appearance - not meant to.

I just think that so far, Butcher has had a place, plan and a time for every character and event. Butcher has been taking babysteps in introducing the various characters, factions, functions et cetera - took him what, eight books? In the meantime, Harry grew - and grew stronger, darker and nastier as well and got entangled in various webs, each given their cameo, their screentime, to add threads to said webs even if the main story wasn't really about them. You lay them out above - thanks to that approach, nearly every faction has some sort of claim on him. Many of these are carefully laid out and spun out.

In Changes, that all seems to go overboard (apart from introducing Odin as a character and as a member of the Grey Council and tying him into the world in person), and I really can't see why, apart from an apparent need to go two shifts higher and give us bigger explosions. Maybe it was to illustrate who Harry feels close to, or who he considers the lesser of evils, but... well. The book goes through the motions of explaining everything we knew in case we forgot (introducing the Macanally's Bar with its multitude of thirteens, the cat, saying who Bob is, doing a little backcheck on Michael, describing Murphs look, Marcone's reputation, Hendricks gets a cameo, et cetera) - these elements are there, but the content, the cool stuff, namely the ties, the tripwires, the catches, the little confrontations and dances Harry has to do to get through, they aren't really here - apart from the Eebs, who as henchmen go are quite amusing but not very worrisome, and Rudolph the hateful cop.

Now, as you say, I don't write the books, I don't really know where this is supposed to go, and sure, Changes gives us plenty of changes, but unless I read the book as a complete cliffhanger for only two points in it (Winter knight + dead and whodunnit - there is also the end of the Red Court plus the end of Susan and if you care about it, and the Order of St. Giles) that are of note for future books. No more Red Court sounds like a big change but as said elsewhere, there are always the Blacks.

Now, normally, Butcher weaves an entire book around one such happenstance, now it feels as a footnote.

Quote

Harry apparently has the swords as part of some divine plan. If God doesn't want Harry loaning them out, God can smote him. Father Whatsisface, Michael and Sanya all know Harry is holding onto two swords and none of them have said boo about it. Quite the opposite. So does Uriel for that matter.

Yup. see above, carefully built up. So, when Harry decides to use them, and goes against the grain (he is to hand them out, after all, to their next wielder, and he does make sure to not wield them himself), I'd like to know what repercussions there are, if there are any - if there are none, that would sure be equally interesting. There are enough people who are tied to the swords getting time in the book to do that, too.

Sure, Butcher may decide these to be kept for a future book. Maybe I expect too much, too soon from, especially given how the book spans only, what, 72 hours?

But to me, him gaining the title of Winter Knight is the main event of the book (ending aside). In the book itself, there are very few reactions from the high and mighty despite the Faerie World spanning Man-meets-Glacial Lady Softcore broadcast. One would think the White Council would contact him, or Fix, as Summer Knight, maybe a few others of the Accord powers. Normally, that bargain would be the whole focus of a Dresden novel. It isn't now, and that's what rubs me the wrong way. There are too many things left undocumented imho, the pace in which things happen is - once again imho - too high, and that acts as a multiplier given how the nature of these changes are normally the focus of an entire book each. As such, i find it a bit of a pity to not get a reponse or more pages dedicated to each.

Quote

And the Archive refused to help Harry specifically because she is the Archive, so i don't know what you're referring to there.

But she does help him, when he tries to threaten her with the summoning of demons written down in his green notebook to show how much he needs her - the contents of which she knows. Now, is that impartial? It might totally be semantics and a very small thing - but on the grander scale of things, she leads to Marcone, who leads to Gard, who opens access to Odin. You suppose that if Nicodimas called her and asked her for help, she'd tell him to ask Marcone instead of consulting his green book?

[Use Of Weapons]

I do think the sword thing is a red herring. Fidelacchius has responded to Murphy as though she is meant to be its next true wielder -- so what's to keep her from taking it out for a few test runs? I'm pretty sure that Uriel or God wouldn't be too concerned that she is using it on a per-problem basis so long as she does use it in the right way. It's Susan, I guess, who is the real issue. But she is using the sword of Love, Amoracchius, in defence of her daughter, whom I imagine she loves (enough to die for). I don't see the problem, and I'm pretty sure that's the reasoning Harry himself might well have gone through.

[Pilgrim]

Ok haven't read any posts yet in this forum and I won't until I finish the book but omg I'm 2 thirds thru it now and this is crazy amazing. Just had to post here and hopefully those of you in the know so to speak know what I mean...

[Abyss]

Pilgrim, on 02 June 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

Ok haven't read any posts yet in this forum and I won't until I finish the book but omg I'm 2 thirds thru it now and this is crazy amazing. Just had to post here and hopefully those of you in the know so to speak know what I mean...

The Dresdencrack.... it OWNS you.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 June 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Pilgrim, on 02 June 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

Ok haven't read any posts yet in this forum and I won't until I finish the book but omg I'm 2 thirds thru it now and this is crazy amazing. Just had to post here and hopefully those of you in the know so to speak know what I mean...

The Dresdencrack.... it OWNS you.

You know, we really could form an army, with a carrot (Dresden book) at the end of a stick and string and lead them anywhere.