[D'rek]

Though it never occured to me, I've seen in a slew of other threads that a lot of people thought the Stormriders were Tiste Liosan. While I don't think there's enough evidence to assert that this is either true or untrue, let's assume for this thread that it is. So, going forward on Stormriders = Tiste Liosan, let's talk about what references reveal the true nature of the Stormriders, what explanations there might be for their manner and existance, and how this might tie in to Liosan events in Shadow and to come in the The Crippled God.

SPOILERS UP TO THE CRIPPLED GOD SYNOPSIS BUT NOT THE BOOK ITSELF


For references of physical similarity:

-The description of the Rider at the end of NoK
-Corlo on the Wall views a Rider get it's icy helm smashed and beneath is a man-like facial features (Note: if their icy-ness is just armor covering them, it could be just like Ruthan Gudd used)
-Shell noting a similarity to Tiste features at the Tower


Other possibly related TL events:

-Fighting the Whorl
-(forthcoming) Invading Kurald Galain
-the return of Osserc
-the appearance of the Hounds of Light
-the moon breaking


So what the heck are they then:

-A weird offshot of the Liosan? (ie Liosan that didn't retreat into Kurald Thyrllan when it was sealed)
-A special Liosan created race?
-Random Liosan taking their turns at assaulting the wall?


And lastly, then what's the Liosan's centuries-long beef with The Lady?

[Aptorian]

All this speculation is based on one character looking at the facial features of a Storm Rider and thinking they are similar to the Tiste. This is hardly evidence to base a solid theory on. It was simply what the features reminded the character of.

[MTS]

Doesn't really make much sense either - there's no light at the bottom of the sea.

[champ]

Could make sense though... What better way to assault the first shore than been a rider... Maybe!

[MTS]

champooon, on 25 January 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

Could make sense though... What better way to assault the first shore than been a rider... Maybe!

The only evidence that points towards it is circumstantial though. They and their power is often described as 'otherworldly', but that doesn't necessarily point towards the Tiste, and we have an Avowed who says their features remind them of the Tiste. Hardly much to go on. You've got no discernible motive for their actions, and why they seem to use the power of ice rather than light.

[chaosek]

Could be the're not Liosan, but Edur, to add to the confusion. This since the Barghast apparently fought the Edur at sea. Being away from shadow might even 'bleached' them somewhat. This could put them at the defending end of 'the shore' being shake (as they we're edur, or at least that's how I remember it).
Although there is no evidence to suggest it, the simularities between attacking the shore of Koreli and attacking the shores of light are there and ofc there is this point of one stopping (Koreli) and one (re)starting (Shores of light). Guess will find out soon, but it's fun speculating.

One thing that crossed my mind, what if the stormriders aren't destroying the CG pieces but are collecting them to make him whole again? Skinner and co probably would not want that, cause a healed CG is not the evil powerhouse they want backing them. And one final question, who did the Liosan and FA fight in their just wars?

[champ]

MTS, on 25 January 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

champooon, on 25 January 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

Could make sense though... What better way to assault the first shore than been a rider... Maybe!

The only evidence that points towards it is circumstantial though. They and their power is often described as 'otherworldly', but that doesn't necessarily point towards the Tiste, and we have an Avowed who says their features remind them of the Tiste. Hardly much to go on. You've got no discernible motive for their actions, and why they seem to use the power of ice rather than light.

Oh I fully agree, I just like wild speculation

[End of Disc One]

D, on 25 January 2011 - 04:36 AM, said:

-The description of the Rider at the end of NoK

I don't remember this, but there was definitely a fitting description at the end of SW.

[Roldom]

the assail and TL were fighting each other in the just wars i think

[Roldom]

PS doesn't drek say its wild speculation but for the purposes of this thread we just take the assumption that they are TL for granted and extrapolate from that?

[D'rek]

Roldom, on 29 January 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

PS doesn't drek say its wild speculation but for the purposes of this thread we just take the assumption that they are TL for granted and extrapolate from that?

That is indeed what I said, but it doesn't look like any of the people who believed it came to visit this thread

[Roldom]

in the depths of the ocean their is no light, wouldnt this offend the TL enough that they decided to bring there shiny selves? and then they saw the three pieces of the lady and thought "hey, this would make a sweet lightbulb..." which is why they hate the lady

maybe the lady is osserics ex and she never gave him his stuff back when he moved out and the TL are just trying to get the meterphorical T.V. and clothes back...

[Traveller]

MTS, on 25 January 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Doesn't really make much sense either - there's no light at the bottom of the sea.

They have their own light though, don't they... the presence of the Stormriders is visible from the surface as a glow.

MTS, on 25 January 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

champooon, on 25 January 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

Could make sense though... What better way to assault the first shore than been a rider... Maybe!

The only evidence that points towards it is circumstantial though. They and their power is often described as 'otherworldly', but that doesn't necessarily point towards the Tiste, and we have an Avowed who says their features remind them of the Tiste. Hardly much to go on. You've got no discernible motive for their actions, and why they seem to use the power of ice rather than light.

Surely the whole point of speculation is to question things based on small, seemingly insignificant pieces of information. How many times on a re-read do you notice something in a single line of text that was hinting at the truth all along, but didn't make much sense at the time?

The question is, if they are Liosan, not why they use 'Ice rather than Light', because they aren't - they are using both Ice and Light - but why they appear to be using Ice rather than Fire. Which should be possible, as Fire itself is better represented as an element in Tellan, whereas Thyr is the Warren of Light.

I know it's all only speculation, but I don't see why the Stormriders couldn't be an off-shoot of the Liosan, with their own realm, living in ignorance of their past and links with Light. Like the Shake, and their links with Darkness.

We don't have enough info yet about their beef with the Lady; I don't think the Moon shattering and the Hounds are linked with the Riders as they've been attacking the Wall for ages. But, I don't think it's just coincidence that they have retrieved two pieces of the CG just before
Light is due to assault Darkness, and the CG itself is about to be freed - Ruthan Gudd was in the 14th for a reason.

This post has been edited by First Tiger: 30 January 2011 - 04:56 PM

[HiddenOne]

I just finished this last night, not as excited as I anticipated. Anyway, I feel we were intended to think that the Riders were TL. I don't know if I can go 100% with that, maybe ICE was trying too hard to lead us, or I could be a paranoid reader, but until something better comes along, I'll bite.

Maybe they are the chosen ones, or unlucky ones - Didn't the sealing of KT happen long before the fall of CG? Weren't the Riders moving against Korel pre-Fall?

I'm trying to tie things together - the role of Burn & Greymane, the effort to remove the wall and change the landscape (somewhat of a Shake theme -shore,sea, etc)

Great question about fragments - were they destroyed or taken away?

A big plan between Mael, Burn, Osserc, leading up to the end confrontation?

I know there was speculation that Riders were originally from Jaghut realms or native to Omtose Phellac (sp) - maybe TL that have been changed by exposure ot time spent in OP before coming to Wu thru a gate or something

[D'iversify]

HiddenOne, on 31 January 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

I know there was speculation that Riders were originally from Jaghut realms or native to Omtose Phellac (sp) - maybe TL that have been changed by exposure ot time spent in OP before coming to Wu thru a gate or something

This is what I was thinking. Plus, remember the rule of woo in Wu - anything can mate with anything else. And, whilst the Andii have the Shake and the Bluerose, the Edur have the Sepik natives, we haven't really seen that I can think of any evidence of Liosan miscegenation, so the tormriders might be a product of such an admixture. Though that might be just because they're too zealous, uptight and prejudiced to think of or do such a thing.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 31 January 2011 - 02:46 PM

[champ]

MTS, on 25 January 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Doesn't really make much sense either - there's no light at the bottom of the sea.

In SW we learn that the TL generate their own light and the more of them together the brighter the light so that wouldn't really matter...

[MTS]

champooon, on 31 January 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

MTS, on 25 January 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Doesn't really make much sense either - there's no light at the bottom of the sea.

In SW we learn that the TL generate their own light and the more of them together the brighter the light so that wouldn't really matter...

How does that relate to the Stormriders though? I know their presence is described as phosphorescent, which is altogether different from producing their own light, dependent on outside stimuli as it is. Their armour is described as opalescent, but that is just a product of the interplay of light on their icy armour. Plus then you have this:

Quote

Ereko peered out to sea: darker smears had emerged from the depths, the Wandwielders, Stormrider mages. He raised himself higher; rarely did he see these beings. Night-black ice was their armour, forged perhaps within the lightless utter depths of the sea.

I think it's a mistake to conflate the presence of aurorae borealium (or anything similar to them) with their somehow being associated with Thyr or Kurald Liosan. The Jaghut ice barrier emits the same glow, and I don't think they've been connected with Light before either.

[champ]

MTS, on 31 January 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

champooon, on 31 January 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

MTS, on 25 January 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Doesn't really make much sense either - there's no light at the bottom of the sea.

In SW we learn that the TL generate their own light and the more of them together the brighter the light so that wouldn't really matter...

How does that relate to the Stormriders though? I know their presence is described as phosphorescent, which is altogether different from producing their own light, dependent on outside stimuli as it is. Their armour is described as opalescent, but that is just a product of the interplay of light on their icy armour.

Just if the TL and the SR are the same... Trying to fit square blocks into round holes

[Silk]

They have Tiste features.... thats all this is based on... so as was said in previous post they could be tiste ruse... and there could be tiste of everything ....

[Salt-Man Z]

The description in NoK includes:

• hair that is mistaken for seaweed
  
• scales, like a fish (so the boy says)
  
• pale, lustrous/glimmering skin
  
• eyes described as "molten gold" and "amber"
  
• a face of "angular, knife-like lines"