[Azathmaster]

What if theres a tiste race for every elder warren but only dark shadow and light races look the same. For example, the stormriders are the tiste race of omtose phellack or denaeth rusen and the imass were the tiste of tellan

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

Azathmaster, on 24 December 2011 - 12:38 AM, said:

What if theres a tiste race for every elder warren but only dark shadow and light races look the same. For example, the stormriders are the tiste race of omtose phellack or denaeth rusen and the imass were the tiste of tellan

I was wondering whether they were a fourth type of Tiste which we haven't encountered yet. As for their warren, no clue. The reason why they are in the sea outside Korel is maybe because all things aquatic are outside the Lady's reach, and their warren is amenable to water/Mael.

Edit: I got stuck on this issue and gave it some more thought, and then I had a look on the encyclopedia and found this quote about Denaeth Rusen, the Elder Warren of the Sea:

'Like any tidal pool motionless under the hot sun, his blood had grown... heated. And the smallest pool was filled with the promise of an ocean, a score of oceans - all their power could be held in a single drop of water. Such was Denaeth Rusen, such was Ruse, the warren where life was first born. And there, in that promise of life itself, will I find what I need.' RG, UK Tpb, p.478

As far as I remember, we have never encountered any denizens yet of the Elder Warren of the Sea other than Mael, so it may be possible that the creatures of the Warren are also Tiste (Rusen? Denaeth?).
A somewhat far-reaching link, but Mael is described with amber eyes somewhere and so are the Stormriders (see Salt Man Z' quote earlier about NoK), although he doesn't have the usual physiognomy of a Tiste with his square heavy frame, blue skin and blond hair. But maybe they are his offspring with Mother Dark (who else ) or some other Eleint we also don't know about yet.

This post has been edited by Miss Savage: 19 March 2012 - 05:12 PM

[iron chef iskaral]

Isn't it mentioned somewhere in NoK, briefly, that scholars speculate that they are somehow related to Jaghut (ice - obvious), that perhaps they were a "demon" living in the Jaghut warren/realm that somehow escaped. So maybe they are some kind of Tiste (the description really rang a bell) that was caught in the Jaghut realm a long ass time ago (maybe during the Ruin + Scabandari vs K'chain wars, when Gothos froze half a continent) and have evolved into freaky ugly water creatures. As to their skin color, I don't think they need to be Liosan. Being underwater for that long would turn any skin color to a deathly pallid white I'd think.

/shrug

[Drusas Achamian]

About the origins of the Stormriders: this could be a possible clue (DOD & TCG spoilers!):

Spoiler

-
Quick Ben on Ruthan Gudd, charging the K'Chain Nah'ruk: '' A Mael-bit
Nerruse-whore-spawn Stormrider. '' (DoD)



This could suggest that the Stormriders are spawn of the Gods of the
seas (in a possible union perhaps?). As we all known, Mael is of course
the Elder God of the Seas, while Nerruse belongs to the 'second
generation' of gods and is the Goddess/Lady of Calm Seas and Fair Winds.
I believe it is mentioned somewhere that Nerruse and Beru, Lord (or
Lady?) of Storms are children to Mael. If we put the Stormriders in this
context, than we could make a comparisson with the whole
Kilmandor/Sechul Lath/(Oponn?)/Forkrul Assail-relationship. A such a way
that the Forkrul Assail are children/created by Kilmandaros, the
Stormrider could be created by Mael and/or Nerruse (perhaps in a
incenstous bonding?).



If we put this in the back of our heads, the following two scenes would make more sense:



1. When the sorcery of his Stormrider-sword is activated, Ruthan Gudd thinks: '' She answers. She answers...what'? '' (DoD)



'' She '' could be Nerruse, aiding the man whom here children, the Stormriders, gave a magical sword.



2. Olar Ethil to Mael: ' '' Your daughters run wild. '' The old man
shrugged. ''Daughters wild do that. Rather, the would do that. I would
be disappointed otherwise. It's a poor father who does not nudge and
then cut loos..''



The '' daughters '' that Olar Ethil mentioned could be Nerruse and Beru -
I believe it's not clear if it's a he or a she - children of Mael. The
'' run wild ''-part could be referencing to the troubles on the seas
and the Stormwall, created by the Stormriders, perhaps in command of
Nerruse and Beru.

[tiam]

RE above spoiler- Quite possible especially given the info we received in FOD regarding the creation of races.

To stick with the purely Tiste aspect im unsure why the focus is on Liosan. For example the warren of KG is mentioned as being colder than OP as it is the cold of pure 'negation' I believe.

Personally Id say it might be Edur. We have a large amount of uncounted for Edur. The Bloodeye Edur settle on the subcontinent of Lether yet there is no mention of large amount of this population becoming naval. It is possible that some, after the fall of Bloodeye, sailed away from their settled kin. We know that the Lether Edur are sea farers and they dispatch a significant round the world fleet, though this is with the resources of the Letherii at their disposal. We know the Letherii are experienced seafarers with ancient maps, originally navigating their way from Seven Cities, so its possible they tapped into their resources and experience though I do remember a description in DG of the Edur being 'seafarers in truth' given the slightly raised heels on their shoes and sealskin cloaks.

However this has to be a significant population. If we take the 18000 surviving Edur figure from MT and we say half of the population stayed on Lether then we have 9000 Edur sailing the seas. This fleet had to suffer casualties against the ancient Barghast, settle with the Moranth in enough power to snag a fragment of KE and also be numerous enough to become the subservient population on the island of Sepik. Now its possible that all the Edur after Bloodeyes simply settled in Lether but surely any subsequent significant exploratory fleet would have been mentioned in MT. Furthermore an offshoot Edur leaving immediately after Bloodeyes betrayal would likely be the kind of thing to be forgotten in the creation myths of the Edur.

The most intriguing thing about this theory is the link between the Edur and the TTT who at this point may have been the purer Thel Akai breed. These, as we saw in ROTCG, have an affinity for Driss, the warren of Earth and of course a link with Burn. In SW Greymanes Sword is considered a concentrated form of Driss. Even with Ereko link with the Enchantress, and thus Thyr, he makes it clear that he considers Driss his home warren when they are fighting the Thaumaturgs.

Now this population could be an offshoot of the Letherii Bloodeye Edur or an earlier exodus similar to Rakes exodus preceding Ruin leaving. The alliance with the TTT thus forging a link with Driss could simply mean that, as wanderers, they were embraced by Mael as guardians/refugees and accepted into his realm thus explaining the quote in the post above. If this is the case then I would think that they wouldn't be the Lether Edur, given Maels destruction of their former leader.

Its not impossible that a significant portion of Edur preceded Ruin and Scabby similar to Rake. These seafarer refugees, with an alliance with the TTT, were welcomed by some (the Moranth) resisted by others (the ancient Barghast) and also founded a colony on the Island of Sepik, with a potentialfor them being overrun when the HFE become aggressive and started its naval expansion. It was these that became the Storm Riders, with the TTT acting as mediators for this tragic group, building themselves a new role in Maels realm and are acting against the Storm Riders on Maels orders or as an affront to their adopted world.

I actually think the Edur had a large role to play in the HFE thus explaining how a shard of emurlahn found its way to Seven Cities despite there being no other contact apart from the fragmentary population on Sepik. Before FOD I actually thought this preceding invasion of Edur, despite there being no mention of it, settled on Seven Cities.

Ah well crazy theories FTW.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 16 January 2013 - 08:23 PM