[Salk Elan]

Let me pick up the idea of Laseen deliberately weeding out the better, or at least regarding leadership more qualified, Claws in order to prevent them from double-crossing her. That always seemed logically consistent to me too, especially taking into account Laseens own poor Leadership ability. – Yeah, she may be a badass-fighter and she managed to take over the Empire by cunning plotting and sheer brutality. But then? Start war everywhere, break down the establishment, double-cross your own loyal followers (Red-Blades, Bridgeburners, Tavore). As I see it, she had an uncanny talent to affront especially those who, for whatever reason, trusted her.

That ties in with how the Claw – and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, nearly any imperial force – seems to have dwindled in strength. They are all to widely scattered as it is. And used in a manner, they were not initially planned to.
Regarding the Claw, I think their strength initially was infiltration, sabotage, gathering intelligence, covert missions... not open street-fighting. This is also hinted on in a dialoge (I don't know where precisely off the top of my head, but I think between Toc and Paran? [Whiskyjack?… sorry if I'm being stupid] probably in DG) on the topic of how – as an opening of Laseens putsch - the Claw took out the Talon by means of sabotaging their missions etc., rather than directly confronting them. The open fighting came later, when the Talons were sufficiently weakened, and we all know that even then the Claw came away victorious (or so they thought) but comparatively chipped themselves. Of course that did not stop them to sit self-righteously on their pile of skulls, so partly they are themselves to be blamed for their downfall because they could not really fill the gap left by the Talon.

What I want to say is, that imo the Claw was designed as a means to spread terror and keep people in check by showing them they could secretly get anyone (a role they fulfilled, hence their reputation), whereas the Talon was initially planned rather as a covert shock-troop, equipped with superior fighting skills (Kalam and Topper in a sense, always striked me rather as Talon-Type, and don't get me wrong, but I don't think that even Topper, with all his widely acknowleged fighting skills, knocked politely on the door of the palace in Unta and fought his bloody way to every member of the royal Family to the ninth cousin on the left… but rather did it secretly, so I don't understand this Claw-bashing on the sole fundament of their probably not so over-exessive hand-to-hand fighting skills, in the first place. But I'm probably biased on this, I'm well aware.).

Anyway, you would not use a scalpel to chop down a wall, but rather a sledgehammer. But that's exactly what Laseen kept doing, out of necessity because there was nothing else at hand than the scalpel-Claw.Of course that misuse lead to an unravelling of the Claw as an organisation. The way they were lead, from one disaster to the next, wore down their initial loyalty to Laseen. Thus it was rather easy for Mallik Rel and Korbolo Dom to infiltrate them, because, I think, many members of the Claw were already looking for an alternate perspective on their own. And the constant 'purging' of their ranks by sending them on missions they could not possibly win, certainly did nothing to strengthen their confidence in Laseen.

So far my interpretation of what we see 'on screen'.

--------------------------

The Claw as a dramaturgical element is something entirely different. No offence, but it is a rather easy way of showing to the audience, that your heroes are maximum badass by letting them hammer a certain foe with a disproportionate reputation into the ground repeatedly.

[MTS]

D, on 26 January 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

worrywort, on 25 January 2011 - 09:54 PM, said:

It may be Phaed, who at least in The Bonehunters IIRC is described as Nimander's daughter with one of Rake's ex-lovers in some weird bit of revenge, right? Which would make her half Andii, and her offspring potentially quarter. But I'm not sure if that was later abandoned, as in RG and TTH the Drift Avalii Andii's relationships all get tangled.

Depends on how you interprete the comments from tBH (think it was Braven Tooth who said it). He points out Nimander and hints at connection to Rake (via the hair I think), then says "and that's his first daughter Phaed". The "his" seems to be inferring Nimander because that's who Braven Tooth was just talking about but I think he really means Rake.

Either way, if Phaed had a child the father could just as easily have been another Andii as a human.

I believe Nimander refers to Phaed as his sister sometime in RG, but Nimander definitely bangs Envy regardless, and some of those Andii are Nimander's get.

[ansible]

MTS, on 26 January 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

D, on 26 January 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

worrywort, on 25 January 2011 - 09:54 PM, said:

It may be Phaed, who at least in The Bonehunters IIRC is described as Nimander's daughter with one of Rake's ex-lovers in some weird bit of revenge, right? Which would make her half Andii, and her offspring potentially quarter. But I'm not sure if that was later abandoned, as in RG and TTH the Drift Avalii Andii's relationships all get tangled.

Depends on how you interprete the comments from tBH (think it was Braven Tooth who said it). He points out Nimander and hints at connection to Rake (via the hair I think), then says "and that's his first daughter Phaed". The "his" seems to be inferring Nimander because that's who Braven Tooth was just talking about but I think he really means Rake.

Either way, if Phaed had a child the father could just as easily have been another Andii as a human.

I believe Nimander refers to Phaed as his sister sometime in RG, but Nimander definitely bangs Envy regardless, and some of those Andii are Nimander's get.

This is my recollection as well, that Nimander refers to Phaed as his sister.

[Abyss]

ansible, on 26 January 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

...This is my recollection as well, that Nimander refers to Phaed as his sister.

But didn't they also have a sex-thing going on?


My recall is shaky so correct me if i'm wrong, but don't all of Nimander's group of Andii all refer to each other as brother ans sister in a 'we're all Andii and related to Rake' sense in TtH?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I believe they used the term cousins more than brothers. Also, if I'm correct, Nimander refers to Phaed as " the one he called in his mind sister", maybe Nimander just can't accept the fact that he has a daughter when, due, to Andii longevity,he doesn't look really that old.

[ansible]

Abyss, on 26 January 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

ansible, on 26 January 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

...This is my recollection as well, that Nimander refers to Phaed as his sister.

But didn't they also have a sex-thing going on?

Do they? I don't remember that. This is just speculation, but it seems to me if Nimander knew or believed that Phaed was his daughter, their relationship would have been much different. I know Andii are weird because they live so long and they don't act like normal parents/children, but the way Nimander views Phaed with such suspicion, fear, and uncertainty does not seem anything like a father's thoughts.

Guess we'll need some quote fu to clear it up, though. I just never, ever got the feeling that Nimander was Phaed's father, so the suggestion surprises me.

Also, Abyss, wouldn't the supposed sex-thing make their relation even WEIRDER? Incest is incest but father/daughter is just worse than brother/sister.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think the weird sex thing was where people weren't sure if anomander banged lady envy, who gave birth nimander and then nimander banged her too... maybe i'm wrong though... it could never be determined if envy was also nimanders mother, or if he was only phaeds father and nothing else... like his mothers lover...

nimander always thought about his nameless love that died on drift avalii, and i don't think he ever had a thing with phaed at all, aside from being her repository of wickedness.

edit: none of that makes any sense now that i've read it so maybe just ignore it all together

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 26 January 2011 - 08:03 PM

[D'rek]

Pedantic time:

nacht, on 26 January 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

I think in the meeting between Kalam and Lasseen, we find out the claw has become useless and filled up with poor recruits and probably a lot of favoritism. Kalam really wanted to take up the offer to become the head of the Claw and clean it up.

You're mixing up two different scenarios:

1) In DG, Topper notes that Kalam cutting his way through Malaz City will weed out the weaker Claw and deliver some harsh lessons to the survivors. Note that the Empress impressed upon Topper that she wanted Kalam alive.
2) In tBH, Laseen is offering Kalam leadership of the Claw with the hopes of him purging the corruption in it (from Mallick's Black Glove). There's nothing about "poor recruits" or inadequacy of the Claw.

Salk Elan, on 26 January 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

Let me pick up the idea of Laseen deliberately weeding out the better, or at least regarding leadership more qualified, Claws in order to prevent them from double-crossing her. That always seemed logically consistent to me too, especially taking into account Laseens own poor Leadership ability. – Yeah, she may be a badass-fighter and she managed to take over the Empire by cunning plotting and sheer brutality.

She gave command of the Claw to Topper, an assassin with a known badass reputation and considered inferior only to Dancer and perhaps Laseen herself. How can you possibly say she was weeding out the more skilled Claw in leadership positions?

Salk Elan, on 26 January 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

But then? Start war everywhere, break down the establishment, double-cross your own loyal followers (Red-Blades, Bridgeburners, Tavore). As I see it, she had an uncanny talent to affront especially those who, for whatever reason, trusted her.

What wars did she start anywhere?

Wars started prior to Laseen taking the throne: Quon Tali, Falar, Seven Cities (with numerous rebellions), Korel, Genebackis
Wars started while Laseen is empress: The Whirlwind rebellion (Laseen didn't start), the Malazan Civil War and Return of the CG (Laseen didn't start), the Wickan front (okay, she sort of started that one)

[Illuyankas]

Perhaps replacing 'start' with 'permit' would be more accurate.

[ansible]

At the risk of going off-topic I have to say that this is fucking amazing:

Quote

Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he's me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What's in your hand, back at me. I have it, it's an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I'm on a quorl.

Thank you, Illy...thank you.

[Salk Elan]

Illuyankas, on 26 January 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

Perhaps replacing 'start' with 'permit' would be more accurate.

Yes, admittedly. Thank you.

D, on 26 January 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

Pedantic time:

Salk Elan, on 26 January 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

Let me pick up the idea of Laseen deliberately weeding out the better, or at least regarding leadership more qualified, Claws in order to prevent them from double-crossing her. That always seemed logically consistent to me too, especially taking into account Laseens own poor Leadership ability. – Yeah, she may be a badass-fighter and she managed to take over the Empire by cunning plotting and sheer brutality.

She gave command of the Claw to Topper, an assassin with a known badass reputation and considered inferior only to Dancer and perhaps Laseen herself. How can you possibly say she was weeding out the more skilled Claw in leadership positions?

Sorry for my unclear phrasing. What I meant was: "not skilled in leadership". I do not question his fighting skill.
But regarding leadership, even Kalam questioned Toppers leadership quality, and as an example, the way he treated Pearl after the Malaz Island debacle speaks for itself.
That was imo a serious case of punishing the bearer of bad news, because, come on, what should Pearl have done after all the other Claws positioned in the City busted their job? His only fault was being the last one alive when Topper needed a scapegoat. That's childish behaviour and not something that hints on outstanding leadership.

(Regarding my above mentioned quote, I searched for it yesterday but have not found it yet… and the more I searched the more insecure I got as to where it was and who did the speaking (or thinking?). But it does exist, I know it! Maybe I'm omitting facts, but I do not make them up… bugs me, really…)

[MTS]

Is this the quote you were looking for?

Quote

Dancer created a covert arm for military campaigns. In keeping with the Imperial symbol of the demon hand gripping a sphere, he called them his Talons. Surly used that model in creating the Claw. The Talons were external — outside the Empire — but the Claw were internal, a secret police, a network of spies and assassins.'
'But the Claw are used in covert military operations,' Kulp said.
'They are now. When Surly became Regent in the absence of Kellanved and Dancer, she sent her Claws after the Talons. The betrayal started subtly — a string of disastrous botched missions — but someone got careless and gave the game away. The two locked daggers and fought it out to the bitter end.'

[Salk Elan]

MTS, on 27 January 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

Is this the quote you were looking for?

Quote

Dancer created a covert arm for military campaigns. In keeping with the Imperial symbol of the demon hand gripping a sphere, he called them his Talons. Surly used that model in creating the Claw. The Talons were external — outside the Empire — but the Claw were internal, a secret police, a network of spies and assassins.'
'But the Claw are used in covert military operations,' Kulp said.
'They are now. When Surly became Regent in the absence of Kellanved and Dancer, she sent her Claws after the Talons. The betrayal started subtly — a string of disastrous botched missions — but someone got careless and gave the game away. The two locked daggers and fought it out to the bitter end.'

Yes, thank you very much! Amazing how you find those quotes! Where is it?

[MTS]

Wasn't that hard, there were only a few places it could've been. It's the bit after they go through the warren and Kulp realises Baudin is Felisin's bodyguard and a Talon to boot. Can't remember the page number. It'd be just under halfway through though I reckon.

[ShadowRaven]

D, on 26 January 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

What wars did she start anywhere?

Wars started prior to Laseen taking the throne: Quon Tali, Falar, Seven Cities (with numerous rebellions), Korel, Genebackis
Wars started while Laseen is empress: The Whirlwind rebellion (Laseen didn't start), the Malazan Civil War and Return of the CG (Laseen didn't start), the Wickan front (okay, she sort of started that one)

Maybe I just remember wrong, but wasn't Laseen the one who actually started the Genebackan campaign as Kellanved and Dancer were exploring the Azath houses at the time it started? Could be I'm just remembering it wrong or is it one of those timeline errors again?

[Abyss]

IIRC, Kellanved and co took Malaz Island, Unta/Napan, Dal Hon, Itko Kan, Kartool and some islands around Korel but not the continent itself, and 7C including Otataral Island.

Then the Genebackis campaign started. Kellanved was around for the Wickan Plains because we know he treated with Coltaine. I also had the impression that Kel was still in charge during Mott Wood, but that was a loss.

It would seem that Laseen continued the Genebackis campaign and specifically the Free Cities part of it, but she didn't start it. She got stalled at Pale, and never got to Darujhistan.

At the same time (ish) the second 7C rebellion started (opinons vary on whether Laseen could have stopped that), Mallick's Black Glove subverted the already heavily decimated Claw and then the Old Guard and Crimson Guard campaigns came in.

To be fair, RCG shows that at least in part, notwithstanding the loss of 7C, Coltaine's army, the Aren Legion and then the Host AND Tavore's 14th army, plus large chunks of Claw to the Black glove and her own fairly nasty plan with Topper, Laseen manipulated events to acually eliminate the Black Glove, the Old Guard and the Crimson Guard as enemies, AL AT ONCE, and it almost worked.

And she did that without the use of the Imass, the High Mage Cadres, the extra armies, the Wickans and the un-devastated Talon and Claw that Kellanved had access to. in fact, her primary tool, other than her brains, was the remainder of the loyal Claw.

So there.

[Illuyankas]

And all she had to do was alienate the Old Guard to provoke them into attacking her before trying to re-recruit them to her side, not let Coltaine and Nok crush the Whirlwind early by removing Pormqual and assassinating Mallick Rel (do you think she couldn't kill him? Or Topper?), therefore removing the Black Glove from the equation entirely, sacrifice Coltaine and the Seventh by letting Seven Cities get run into the ground in the first place, and then let Rel and Korbolo effectively take over the Empire from her. So she pretty much gutted, pissed on and then threw the Empire into a fire to deal with two threats she created and one that was about to implode into civil war in the first place. Good job!

[nacht]

Illuyankas, on 27 January 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

And all she had to do was alienate the Old Guard to provoke them into attacking her before trying to re-recruit them to her side, not let Coltaine and Nok crush the Whirlwind early by removing Pormqual and assassinating Mallick Rel (do you think she couldn't kill him? Or Topper?), therefore removing the Black Glove from the equation entirely, sacrifice Coltaine and the Seventh by letting Seven Cities get run into the ground in the first place, and then let Rel and Korbolo effectively take over the Empire from her. So she pretty much gutted, pissed on and then threw the Empire into a fire to deal with two threats she created and one that was about to implode into civil war in the first place. Good job!

Nice Argument!!
Lasseen really screwed up. Her major issue was Loyalty/Trust. I get the feeling that Kellenved was much more loyal and it was repaid in kind by his people (like Coltaine). Because of this credibility, he was also able to make deals with other kingdoms rather than fight outright wars. Lasseen on the other hand was ready to throw the Wickans under the bus.
This comeback to what Anomandaris used to say, that if the leader is perceived as disloyal and untrustworthy, it breeds betrayal in the ranks (or something like that).

I am going to start a "Tavore Paran for empress" campaign :-)

[Abyss]

Except...

Illuyankas, on 27 January 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

And all she had to do was alienate the Old Guard

True, but RCG shows us that the Old Guard were all 'waaah it's not like the old days', yet none of them were willing to step up and take charge of the Empire when it mattered (when Kel and Cots had been gone too long). It's not like Laseen just staged a coup one day. They had years to oppose her and none did. At least Whiskeyjack considered it and made a decision not to but stayed anyways. The Old Guard all fucked off to build toy dinosaurs and shag nomads.

Quote

...to provoke them into attacking her before trying to re-recruit them to her side, not let Coltaine and Nok crush the Whirlwind early by removing Pormqual and assassinating Mallick Rel (do you think she couldn't kill him? Or Topper?), therefore removing the Black Glove from the equation entirely, sacrifice Coltaine and the Seventh by letting Seven Cities get run into the ground in the first place, and then let Rel and Korbolo effectively take over the Empire from her.

Pormqual wasn't leading the Rebellion and taking him out wouldn't have made a difference so long as Rel was still in place. And no one knew what Rel was up to. And from TB we know that Rel was actually sufficiently powerful that no, neither Laseen or Topper could be sure of taking him out.

Without the Imass to hold 7C the rebellion was going to happen one way or another. There was a goddess behind it, after all. The one comment from Stormy or whoever that Kellanved would have just crushed the place overlooks that Kel had the armies and Imass to do that with. Laseen was already over-extended because of Genabackis and Korel - both of which were started by Kellanved, not her.

Coltaine and the 7th were sent in to 7C to rescue the people and that's what they did. They died because of Rel. And again, no one knew what Rel was up to. Laseen did not send them in to be sacrificed - she wasn't in a position to spare an army and one of her best Fists expecting to lose them. Quite the opposite she expected them to succeed and they did.

Dom and Rel (mostly Rel) staged a fairly clever plot that Laseen failed to expect or counter. True. And while we could argue that she let it happen to give an impression of weakness and draw the Old Guard and the Crimson Guard out and deal with them all, her reactions in TB at least don't seem to support this. But what she did do was turn impending defeat into victory by setting up all the problem players. Rel just turned out to be a better player.

Quote

So she pretty much gutted, pissed on and then threw the Empire into a fire to deal with two threats she created and one that was about to implode into civil war in the first place. Good job!

Nope. She took control of a total mess and held it together, and when it really went to hell she was willing to sacrifice people, including the Wickans, to turn things around, rather than make a likely pointless attempt to 'just assassinate everyone'.

[Illuyankas]

Abyss, on 27 January 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

True, but RCG shows us that the Old Guard were all 'waaah it's not like the old days', yet none of them were willing to step up and take charge of the Empire when it mattered (when Kel and Cots had been gone too long). It's not like Laseen just staged a coup one day. They had years to oppose her and none did. At least Whiskeyjack considered it and made a decision not to but stayed anyways. The Old Guard all fucked off to build toy dinosaurs and shag nomads.

I mostly agree there, but there is a level of explanation that would make the difference between 'fuck it, it's your mess now, off to retirement' and 'this is terrible we need to remove you from power what the hell are you doing' lacking from what Laseen did.

Quote

Pormqual wasn't leading the Rebellion and taking him out wouldn't have made a difference so long as Rel was still in place. And no one knew what Rel was up to. And from TB we know that Rel was actually sufficiently powerful that no, neither Laseen or Topper could be sure of taking him out.

Yet Laseen and Kalam could be, while in a room with a Whiskeyjack quality swordsman as well? Removing Pormqual would remove Rel's authority and greatly lessen the massive disaster that was the Chain of Dogs.

Quote

Without the Imass to hold 7C the rebellion was going to happen one way or another. There was a goddess behind it, after all. The one comment from Stormy or whoever that Kellanved would have just crushed the place overlooks that Kel had the armies and Imass to do that with. Laseen was already over-extended because of Genabackis and Korel - both of which were started by Kellanved, not her.

Coltaine and the 7th were sent in to 7C to rescue the people and that's what they did. They died because of Rel. And again, no one knew what Rel was up to. Laseen did not send them in to be sacrificed - she wasn't in a position to spare an army and one of her best Fists expecting to lose them. Quite the opposite she expected them to succeed and they did.

Coltaine and the 7th could have crushed the armies of the Whirlwind and saved the majority of the refugees with the help of Nok and his fleet, resupplying and shipping civilians to safe cities such as Aren. Hell, diverting Pearl away from Kalam momentarily would have killed off Reloe - the only active non-soldier threat - while the other Rebellion High Mages stayed at the oasis until Tavore's forces would have arrived to assist Coltaine in destroying the rest of the Whirlwind's armies, rendering the whole thing greatly reduced in severity, goddess or not. Leaving Pormqual and therefore Rel in place ruined that. A single agent could see what was going on in Aren with Rel, and she would have sent an agent good enough to survive Rel's assassination attempts or worked out something was amiss when they didn't return. Laseen just wouldn't be suitable to run the Empire if she ignored such an obvio- OH WAIT.

Quote

Dom and Rel (mostly Rel) staged a fairly clever plot that Laseen failed to expect or counter. True. And while we could argue that she let it happen to give an impression of weakness and draw the Old Guard and the Crimson Guard out and deal with them all, her reactions in TB at least don't seem to support this. But what she did do was turn impending defeat into victory by setting up all the problem players. Rel just turned out to be a better player.

Laseen's reactions in TB suggest an idiot. The only way they make sense is if she knew Tavore's actual objectives and decided to assist in that by letting Rel throw the Wickans to the cattledogs and risk Tavore's death by giving them an excuse to leave that wouldn't arouse the suspicions of observing meddling Ascendants. Otherwise she exiled one of her last armies because she allowed another one of them to die.

Quote

Nope. She took control of a total mess and held it together, and when it really went to hell she was willing to sacrifice people, including the Wickans, to turn things around, rather than make a likely pointless attempt to 'just assassinate everyone'.

A total mess of her own creation, and deciding the best solution was 'Everyone dies, and someone hopefully competent lives through it to rebuild, even more hopefully me'. And no, the time to assassinate everyone came and went, she missed it because she's a terrible terrible ruler. She wouldn't have even been in that ridiculously bad position if she hadn't made all those mistakes to put her there in the first place.

Laseen didn't singlehandedly shaft the Malazan Empire, but that didn't stop her trying.