[fingolfin]

I have got to the part of MoI (pg 230 UK MMPB) when Paran enters the Azath and he sees the Deck past and present.

The part that confuses me is when he is viewing the Hold of Beasts and the following

“The Hold of beasts ... long before the First Throne... this was the heart of the T’lan Imass’s power – their spirit world, when they were still flesh and blood, when they still possessed spirits to be worshipped and revered. Long before they initiated the ritual of Tellann ... and so came to outlast their own panthenon...

A realm, then, abandoned. Lost to its makers. What then is the Warren of Tellann that the T’lan Imass now use? Ah, that warren must have been born from the Ritual itself, a physical manifestation of their Vow of Immortality, perhaps. Aspected not of life, nor even death. Aspected ... of dust.”

This seems to indicate to me at least that the Tellann warren only came into existence when the Ritual was invoked. Now I had always previously thought that Tellann was the native warren to the Imass the same way Omtose Phellack for example was for the Jaghut. The purpose of the Ritual was to make the Imass immortal and this was done I thought by “combining” the Tellann warren with every Imass.

I understand that Holds were a precursor to warrens as was explained fairly clearly in MT.

I am just confused I suppose about how Hold and the Tellann related to the Imass and in what different ways. Also the term panthenon in this context confuses me a bit.

I have read up to RG this is currently a reread so feel free to use spoilers from those books as long as they are in spoiler text.

Any explanation would be great.

[HoosierDaddy]

I think Paran is wrong, actually. Consider he is a random mortal suddenly thrust into the middle of eons of history, and trying to cope and understand as much as possible. The Beast realm seems to be native to the Imass in a more primordial sense, and retains obvious other connotations not to be discussed here. However, that doesn't mean that Tellann was not also native to them as their culture changed.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Actually I think it's mentioned more than once that the Beast Hold was the Imass warren/spiritual realm/whatever but it was abandoned once they became T'lann Imass . Also both Jhagut and Imass don't come from a warren, they're two of the original species of the malazan worl. Just because they use respectively OP and Tellann doesn't mean they lived in there, as did the Andii.

[fingolfin]

I quite like the idea that Paran is wrong as that would fit better with my understanding.

As far as I am concerned the Imass Bonecasters used the warren of Tellann (which was kinda fire aspected?) as the world became more sophisticated as the warrens came into being after the Holds. But before the warrens were about they used a more spiritual based magic (sort of like the spirits of the land Sormo used in DG except these are spirits of the Hold?) where the spirits come from the Beast Hold. The Hold of Beasts was were Togg and Fanderay sat on their thrones and all the other spirits that the Imass worshipped hung out.

I was aware the Imass didn't come from Tellann warren and didn't invade Wu, I am sorry if that wasn't clear in the original post.

[Mentalist]

Tellann WAS fire-aspected. it was used by the Imass. Prior to the ritual. it is also mentioned to be used by the Imass to "breach" OP during the Imass-Jaghut wars.

Interesting point to note here, is the fact that in one of the passages in MoI Toc mentions that the Jaghut usurped the Wolves of Winter in order to gain control over OP.

Whether or not Paran is wrong in his explanation is hard to say. it is said numerous times that T'lan Imass outived their pantheon. which is why Silverfox tried to fashion a new warren for them, using Rhivi spirits, and the T'lan Ay, etc. this world was claimed by the High House War, however, which imposed itself over the Beast Hold.