[Jingospice]

Two different questions.
First, has it been stated already whether or not the normal Malazan realm is a warren? I remember something about it being Burn's realm i think. Anyways, if it is a warren how travel through other warrens is almost always faster?

Second, where is Kallor from? I originally thought that he wasn't human and that he had ruled over the imperial warren and then burned it down. But I think I remember someone saying that he was human. If this is answered in a later book then there's no need to spoil it.

[champ]

 Jingospice, on 08 December 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

Two different questions.
First, has it been stated already whether or not the normal Malazan realm is a warren? I remember something about it being Burn's realm i think. Anyways, if it is a warren how travel through other warrens is almost always faster?

Second, where is Kallor from? I originally thought that he wasn't human and that he had ruled over the imperial warren and then burned it down. But I think I remember someone saying that he was human. If this is answered in a later book then there's no need to spoil it.

Up to TtH... iirc...

The Malazan Imperial warren is land that Kallor devastated after the confrontation with the Elder Gods Krul, Draconus and Cold Nights, Krul took it inside of him so that the devastation wouldnt ruin the known world!

As for the travel, perspectives are different in warrens to the normal realm, travel is shorter in most warrens!

Kallor... It's said he's human but who knows, a lot of links to Jacuraku (sp?) to but where he's from originally, Im not too sure, not sure too if it is known!

Sure others will comment further...

This post has been edited by champooon: 08 December 2010 - 11:20 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

 Jingospice, on 08 December 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

Two different questions.
First, has it been stated already whether or not the normal Malazan realm is a warren? I remember something about it being Burn's realm i think. Anyways, if it is a warren how travel through other warrens is almost always faster?

Second, where is Kallor from? I originally thought that he wasn't human and that he had ruled over the imperial warren and then burned it down. But I think I remember someone saying that he was human. If this is answered in a later book then there's no need to spoil it.

The "normal Malazan realm" is, so far, pretty unfixed. However, it's never (at least in my memory) been referred to as a warren. Burn's realm, or the warren that shares her aspect, would seem to be Tennes. You definitely do not want to think that Wu is Burn's warren. Wu's been referred to in many ways, most notably as a "young world" but there's no evidence to suggest it's just another in the series of warrens. It doesn't seem to have any aspect or Throne or ruler.

All the evidence to me suggests that Kallor is a human, albeit a very long lived one. Even in his capacity as an ancient, he's still not fully an Ascendant, as the EGs cursed him to never be able to ascend. The Imperial Warren is the blasted ruin of his Empire, which he himself leveled because he knew the Elder Gods were coming for a reckoning. K'rul fashioned the Imperial Warren in his capacity as the Maker of Paths and "shifted" the devastation of Kallor's ruined empire into it. And this is actually where we get one of those "young world" references, as K'rul says the world is too young to abide/recover from that kind of destruction.

And as to how/why travel is faster through warrens... MAGIC!

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 09 December 2010 - 01:05 AM

[The Seguleh 46th]

 Jingospice, on 08 December 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

Two different questions.
First, has it been stated already whether or not the normal Malazan realm is a warren? I remember something about it being Burn's realm i think. Anyways, if it is a warren how travel through other warrens is almost always faster?

Second, where is Kallor from? I originally thought that he wasn't human and that he had ruled over the imperial warren and then burned it down. But I think I remember someone saying that he was human. If this is answered in a later book then there's no need to spoil it.

I've always thought of Wu as a Warren myself. I mean, why not? What makes it special in comparison to the other realms/worlds? Burn's Warren? Never thought of it as such, but i find it hard to really argue against either. There's solid ground, open sky, and living things in Kurald Liosan, Shadow, Omtose Phellack, Aral Gamelon, etc. Maybe Wu is just the most accessable Warren? Or i am completely wrong. No evidence either way really for or against. I think......

And as far as i know, Kallor is a "mere" human who wrought unbelievable destruction upon the face of this world, and lives long life mostly due to his century candles and probably other unspecified means (re: hate, rage, vengeance.......hmmm......sounds alot like Dassem in a slightly inverted way! Theory for another time and thread though there........ )

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 08 December 2010 - 11:57 PM

[The Seguleh 46th]

In regards to the travel faster question, maybe "demons" come here every now and then for faster travel (i.e., time being different for them in our world as compared to theirs as well?)? I mean, the Path of Hands? Why did they need to come here? I know they were ultimately deceived, but i'm sure each of them could have exclusively used their own realms for their final destination. And other realms have armies, wars, peasants, fisherfolk, "people" with normal lives being led, etc., just like Wu.

[D'rek]

It's hard to argue that time actually moves any faster or slower in any of the warrens. Cause-and-effect-wise it all works out without that being the case and any seemingly unrealistic expanses of time can just as easily be explained as timeline insanities, rather than a time dilation effect of warrens.

Definitely they can be used to cross ground faster, but other than the Imperial Warren, this is not necessarily a basic tenet. In the IW just walking about seems to cover ground faster in relation to Wu, but something like Tattersail fast-traveling in GotM could easily be a particular spell she is wielding and not an intrinsic effect of the Thyr warren itself.

Wu could easily be a warren, it is very similar to the Imperial Warren, Aral Gamelon and the Beast Realm, which all have separate worlds but don't seem to have any particular Paths associated with them. This distinction may be largely semantic though.

And Kallor is indeed to all outward appearances human. Can't be more specific than that since whatever sub-race he is has either died out or evolved for hundreds of thousands of years since.

[Aptorian]

Burns realm/warren is the earth, the thing that people walk on. Just like Maels warren is the sea. Dig or dive deep enough into them and you come to the center of their power.

In DOD you will see how you fast travel with Burns warren.

As for travelling through the warrens. I believe the effect of travelling far in a short time, is as much an effect of the warrens wandering and occupying different spaces than the natural world in pockets. I don't think you should think of the warrens as smaller than the natural world. Rather many of them are probably bigger. For example I am sure that Burns world is not the only one that casts shadows into Emurhlan.

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

[MTS]

Quote

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

Well, now that those curses are broken, Kallor could theoretically die of old age. If he doesn't Ascend first, that is.

[The Seguleh 46th]

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Quote

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

Well, now that those curses are broken, Kallor could theoretically die of old age. If he doesn't Ascend first, that is.

I'm of the opinion that he has already Ascended, but i have absolutely nothing to back that up. I wanna say its either the moment that he became the Reaver of High House Chains, or possibly the moment that blood was spilled upon K'rul's Belfry, when K'rul became relevant to the world once more (somewhat). Also, was Nightchill's betrayal and subsequent fulfillment of her curse right around the same time? Still, that is admittedly very shaky ground i tread saying that, i imagine.....

Also, when does one know they are Ascended? Kallor has essentially been himself the past 300-400 thousand years (however long he has been alive......gonna say 363,412 years old for story's sake...lolz!), albeit somewhat tempered by being around various influences/powers such as Caladan Brood and potentially others. He may not even know? Or am i really reaching out on a long, shaky limb here? (i gots thick skin, i can take it!)

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 13 December 2010 - 05:25 AM

[MTS]

 The Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Quote

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

Well, now that those curses are broken, Kallor could theoretically die of old age. If he doesn't Ascend first, that is.

I'm of the opinion that he has already Ascended, but i have absolutely nothing to back that up. I wanna say its either the moment that he became the Reaver of High House Chains, or possibly the moment that blood was spilled upon K'rul's Belfry, when K'rul became relevant to the world once more (somewhat). Also, was Nightchill's betrayal and subsequent fulfillment of her curse right around the same time? Still, that is admittedly very shaky ground i tread saying that, i imagine.....

Also, when does one know they are Ascended? Kallor has essentially been himself the past 300-400 thousand years (however long he has been alive......gonna say 363,412 years old for story's sake...lolz!), albeit somewhat tempered by being around various influences/powers such as Caladan Brood and potentially others. He may not even know? Or am i really reaching out on a long, shaky limb here? (i gots thick skin, i can take it!)

Kallor's empire fell 119,736 years before Burn's Sleep. Considering Kallor's comment about it taking '50 years to conquer an entire continent', we can place Kallor as at least 119,786 years old. I wouldn't imagine he would be that much older than that, if at all, as he was just a mortal, albeit a powerful one, before he was cursed by K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill.

As for the possibility of his Ascension, it is difficult to say. It's not a very well-explained phenomenon at all, although we have been given theories, like Paran's in BH. Whatever the case may be, I'm not sure Nightchill's death and K'rul's return are analogous, even if they did occur at the same time - Nightchill's death was the fulfilment of Kallor's curse, whereas K'rul's return was the breaking of it. As for Draconus:

Spoiler

he only ended up breaking his curse in DoD

So if you go down that route, Kallor would have Ascended only very recently, since it was Draconus who cursed Kallor never to Ascend. As far as I'm aware Nightchill has not yet broken hers, since she was torn to pieces by inhuman hands and as of yet knows no respite in Silverfox.

Anyway, Kallor's position as Reaver does not qualify him as an Ascendant, I don't think. A position in a House =/= Ascension. Iskaral is the Magus of Shadow yet we can be fairly safe in saying he is not an Ascendant, just very powerful. All of the power Kallor gained from becoming Reaver came from the Crippled God, not from his own bat, so I'm skeptical he has Ascended. Yet.

[The Seguleh 46th]

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

 The Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Quote

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

Well, now that those curses are broken, Kallor could theoretically die of old age. If he doesn't Ascend first, that is.

I'm of the opinion that he has already Ascended, but i have absolutely nothing to back that up. I wanna say its either the moment that he became the Reaver of High House Chains, or possibly the moment that blood was spilled upon K'rul's Belfry, when K'rul became relevant to the world once more (somewhat). Also, was Nightchill's betrayal and subsequent fulfillment of her curse right around the same time? Still, that is admittedly very shaky ground i tread saying that, i imagine.....

Also, when does one know they are Ascended? Kallor has essentially been himself the past 300-400 thousand years (however long he has been alive......gonna say 363,412 years old for story's sake...lolz!), albeit somewhat tempered by being around various influences/powers such as Caladan Brood and potentially others. He may not even know? Or am i really reaching out on a long, shaky limb here? (i gots thick skin, i can take it!)

Kallor's empire fell 119,736 years before Burn's Sleep. Considering Kallor's comment about it taking '50 years to conquer an entire continent', we can place Kallor as at least 119,786 years old. I wouldn't imagine he would be that much older than that, if at all, as he was just a mortal, albeit a powerful one, before he was cursed by K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill.

As for the possibility of his Ascension, it is difficult to say. It's not a very well-explained phenomenon at all, although we have been given theories, like Paran's in BH. Whatever the case may be, I'm not sure Nightchill's death and K'rul's return are analogous, even if they did occur at the same time - Nightchill's death was the fulfilment of Kallor's curse, whereas K'rul's return was the breaking of it. As for Draconus:

Spoiler

he only ended up breaking his curse in DoD

So if you go down that route, Kallor would have Ascended only very recently, since it was Draconus who cursed Kallor never to Ascend. As far as I'm aware Nightchill has not yet broken hers, since she was torn to pieces by inhuman hands and as of yet knows no respite in Silverfox.

Anyway, Kallor's position as Reaver does not qualify him as an Ascendant, I don't think. A position in a House =/= Ascension. Iskaral is the Magus of Shadow yet we can be fairly safe in saying he is not an Ascendant, just very powerful. All of the power Kallor gained from becoming Reaver came from the Crippled God, not from his own bat, so I'm skeptical he has Ascended. Yet.

I was joking about the age thing, but yeah, we can all safely agree that he is one old motherfucker!

Also, possibility here of Nightchill breaking the curse. She inhabits a body that is virtually incapable of betraying her. Others can betray Silverfox, that is assuming Tattersail is the dominant identity in that body though, but not NC directly so maybe the curse is broken by default? Not really sure what i just said there.......sigh.....

[MTS]

 The Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 06:36 AM, said:

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

 The Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Quote

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

Well, now that those curses are broken, Kallor could theoretically die of old age. If he doesn't Ascend first, that is.

I'm of the opinion that he has already Ascended, but i have absolutely nothing to back that up. I wanna say its either the moment that he became the Reaver of High House Chains, or possibly the moment that blood was spilled upon K'rul's Belfry, when K'rul became relevant to the world once more (somewhat). Also, was Nightchill's betrayal and subsequent fulfillment of her curse right around the same time? Still, that is admittedly very shaky ground i tread saying that, i imagine.....

Also, when does one know they are Ascended? Kallor has essentially been himself the past 300-400 thousand years (however long he has been alive......gonna say 363,412 years old for story's sake...lolz!), albeit somewhat tempered by being around various influences/powers such as Caladan Brood and potentially others. He may not even know? Or am i really reaching out on a long, shaky limb here? (i gots thick skin, i can take it!)

Kallor's empire fell 119,736 years before Burn's Sleep. Considering Kallor's comment about it taking '50 years to conquer an entire continent', we can place Kallor as at least 119,786 years old. I wouldn't imagine he would be that much older than that, if at all, as he was just a mortal, albeit a powerful one, before he was cursed by K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill.

As for the possibility of his Ascension, it is difficult to say. It's not a very well-explained phenomenon at all, although we have been given theories, like Paran's in BH. Whatever the case may be, I'm not sure Nightchill's death and K'rul's return are analogous, even if they did occur at the same time - Nightchill's death was the fulfilment of Kallor's curse, whereas K'rul's return was the breaking of it. As for Draconus:

Spoiler

he only ended up breaking his curse in DoD

So if you go down that route, Kallor would have Ascended only very recently, since it was Draconus who cursed Kallor never to Ascend. As far as I'm aware Nightchill has not yet broken hers, since she was torn to pieces by inhuman hands and as of yet knows no respite in Silverfox.

Anyway, Kallor's position as Reaver does not qualify him as an Ascendant, I don't think. A position in a House =/= Ascension. Iskaral is the Magus of Shadow yet we can be fairly safe in saying he is not an Ascendant, just very powerful. All of the power Kallor gained from becoming Reaver came from the Crippled God, not from his own bat, so I'm skeptical he has Ascended. Yet.

I was joking about the age thing, but yeah, we can all safely agree that he is one old motherfucker!

Also, possibility here of Nightchill breaking the curse. She inhabits a body that is virtually incapable of betraying her. Others can betray Silverfox, that is assuming Tattersail is the dominant identity in that body though, but not NC directly so maybe the curse is broken by default? Not really sure what i just said there.......sigh.....

Nightchill has already been betrayed i.e. by Tayschrenn, who apparently summoned the demon that tore her limb from limb. This is the curse itself:

Quote

And as for you, woman, inhuman hands shall tear your body into pieces, upon a field of battle, yet you shall know no respite - thus, my curse upon you, Sister of Cold Nights.

So it has already been fulfilled. The breaking of the curse is presumably in finding the 'respite' that is denied her, whatever that is. The death of Silverfox, perhaps, which would result in the freeing of her soul.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 The Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 06:36 AM, said:

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

 The Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

 MTS, on 13 December 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Quote

And just to clarify, Kallors extraordinary lifespan is not caused by the candles, it is the Elder God curses, specifically the one stating that he will know Mortal life unending. The candles he uses to give himself longevity. Without them he would be a husk of a human being crumbled by age.

Well, now that those curses are broken, Kallor could theoretically die of old age. If he doesn't Ascend first, that is.

I'm of the opinion that he has already Ascended, but i have absolutely nothing to back that up. I wanna say its either the moment that he became the Reaver of High House Chains, or possibly the moment that blood was spilled upon K'rul's Belfry, when K'rul became relevant to the world once more (somewhat). Also, was Nightchill's betrayal and subsequent fulfillment of her curse right around the same time? Still, that is admittedly very shaky ground i tread saying that, i imagine.....

Also, when does one know they are Ascended? Kallor has essentially been himself the past 300-400 thousand years (however long he has been alive......gonna say 363,412 years old for story's sake...lolz!), albeit somewhat tempered by being around various influences/powers such as Caladan Brood and potentially others. He may not even know? Or am i really reaching out on a long, shaky limb here? (i gots thick skin, i can take it!)

Kallor's empire fell 119,736 years before Burn's Sleep. Considering Kallor's comment about it taking '50 years to conquer an entire continent', we can place Kallor as at least 119,786 years old. I wouldn't imagine he would be that much older than that, if at all, as he was just a mortal, albeit a powerful one, before he was cursed by K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill.

As for the possibility of his Ascension, it is difficult to say. It's not a very well-explained phenomenon at all, although we have been given theories, like Paran's in BH. Whatever the case may be, I'm not sure Nightchill's death and K'rul's return are analogous, even if they did occur at the same time - Nightchill's death was the fulfilment of Kallor's curse, whereas K'rul's return was the breaking of it. As for Draconus:

Spoiler

he only ended up breaking his curse in DoD

So if you go down that route, Kallor would have Ascended only very recently, since it was Draconus who cursed Kallor never to Ascend. As far as I'm aware Nightchill has not yet broken hers, since she was torn to pieces by inhuman hands and as of yet knows no respite in Silverfox.

Anyway, Kallor's position as Reaver does not qualify him as an Ascendant, I don't think. A position in a House =/= Ascension. Iskaral is the Magus of Shadow yet we can be fairly safe in saying he is not an Ascendant, just very powerful. All of the power Kallor gained from becoming Reaver came from the Crippled God, not from his own bat, so I'm skeptical he has Ascended. Yet.

I was joking about the age thing, but yeah, we can all safely agree that he is one old motherfucker!

Also, possibility here of Nightchill breaking the curse. She inhabits a body that is virtually incapable of betraying her. Others can betray Silverfox, that is assuming Tattersail is the dominant identity in that body though, but not NC directly so maybe the curse is broken by default? Not really sure what i just said there.......sigh.....

But you see betrayal was never art of Kallor's curse. It's NC and the other EG that assume that her death will be caused by betrayal. As MTS said the curse will be broken once she is free of SF

[amphibian]

Kallor's curses were not broken. They came to pass as set forth. Nightchill accidentally found a way out of hers, due to Silverfox's creation. Draconus may or may not have refashioned Dragnipur to allow the escape after it was shattered, so his getting around Kallor's curse is owed greatly to Rake's altruistic acts. K'rul left a temple in Darujhistan and odds being what they were, it was a matter of time before blood resurrected him. This one I actually chalk up to careful planning combined with a little bit of luck.

Kallor's curses coming to pass does NOT necessarily mean that the combined curse placed upon Kallor by K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill has faded away. It could still be in effect.

[The Seguleh 46th]

 amphibian, on 13 December 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

Kallor's curses were not broken. They came to pass as set forth. Nightchill accidentally found a way out of hers, due to Silverfox's creation. Draconus may or may not have refashioned Dragnipur to allow the escape after it was shattered, so his getting around Kallor's curse is owed greatly to Rake's altruistic acts. K'rul left a temple in Darujhistan and odds being what they were, it was a matter of time before blood resurrected him. This one I actually chalk up to careful planning combined with a little bit of luck.

Kallor's curses coming to pass does NOT necessarily mean that the combined curse placed upon Kallor by K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill has faded away. It could still be in effect.

You are right, they could be still in effect, though i personally doubt it. How would he even know though? Its not like the skies part and a huge drum beats or a voice sings a single syllable in high soprano, it just happens (the curse breaking thing). I was probably off on NC's curse, as i thought it was "she shall know betrayal on fields of battle time and time again" (paraphrased), and we do know that she has been around the block a few times in the HFE and other places/times that i forget, and maybe met similar ends? (unknown, i think).

So, we got Draconus free of a weapon of his own making. K'rul and his name are somewhat relevant to the world again, and no longer faded to memory, and Nightchill has met betrayal, but soul has been released to a body that may or may not be dominated by her persona. Kallor is still ancient, but is Reaver of a very powerful house, and seemingly no longer being kept in check by various powers. He is also an undeniable force to be reckoned with. Ascension already occuring is possible, not gonna go quite so far as to say its already happened, just moreof my personal opinion. IMO, he is, but doesn't know it, and what would it really change if he did realize it? He's already a very powerful and formidable man with a thirst for power.

[Aptorian]

I think the problem actually lies in the definition of ascendant here.

There is the term Ascendant, which is connected with the deck. It is when a person or creature becomes a power of its own recognised by the Deck. It's sort of a sticker put on any one who becomes a player and not just a pawn in the game of the deck.

And then there is the more vague tern, the one utilised in GotM and the one that Esslemont seems to be playing with in his books. Where ascendant seems to be more of a tittle. A label you stick on the big boogeymen. Extremely strong creatures like the Hounds of Shadow, Random Jaghut, any kind of monster really, they all qualify for the title of ascendant simply because they are big and scary.

Kallor is banned from being a part of the deck. But in the other definition, Kallor very well fills the description of an old horror walking the earth fucking up shit.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Jenisapt Rul, on 13 December 2010 - 09:56 PM, said:

Kallor is banned from being a part of the deck.

Until the House of Chains gets in on a technicality and that chain-smoking (haha get it?!) seed-popping bastard Kaminsod offers him a job.

[Aptorian]

Which is where the controversy lies.

As we all know, you don't have to be an ascendant to fulfil a role in a House.

How ever, you wont get your own card before you ascend and you stake your claim... or a stake claims... you... or something... what?