[Harvester]

Mhm, I cannot add much more to this, most of it has already been said, but having read ICE's books - well, let's say I got the impression that Return of the Crimson Guard and Stonewielder weren't written for any other person than Steve. I, however, don't have the knowledge to fill all those gaps, to answer my questions and that leaves me unsatisfied.

[Blueiron]

To add to the burn-riders relation, it seems possible to me that burn wasnted the stormriders to be able to get rid of the bits of tCG that were hiding in fist. She gave them the weapon as a way for them to get through in return for their promise (possibly something they both wanted anyway) to find the bits of tCG and get rid of them for her.

[Darkwatch]

My problems are the following:

The landing on Korel by Greymane's forces was patently useless, a waste of life. All he had to do was ride out in a boat with Devaleth then have her deliver him while that one boat went back.
At the end of the book Rool is independent and the main expeditionary force is leaving. Did the Malazans just abandon a whole invasion? Was the sole point to destroy the Lady? Why not not just send in some infiltration units after extensive negotiations with Mare. Somehow I doubt Mallick Rel would allow such a thing.
Also I kind of feel bad for Bakune in the sense that his main point was to bring down the cloister and their magic by murder and he winds up the pawn of Karien'el. There's no mention of him passing sweeping legislation against the cult of the Lady at the end...

As mentionned what happend in Jourilan?

Of all of ICE's books my favourite so far is RotCG. I consider SW to be the weakest. A whole continent, a whole lot of depth, different cultures and so very little was done.

[Studlock]

I was satisfied with the ending, I really didn't feel all that bad about not finding out about the Storm Riders because we were never, in the story, given a POV, there were more a of plot device than anything though I have theroy that they were the orginal people of the land who were swallowed by the sea. I enjoyed all of the storylines. Personally I think Mallick Rel sent the invasion force to punish the 6th army for deserting in which they did and I would like to point out that didn't have enough men to hold Rool or Koreli and that there would have been increased resistance from the locals after what happen with the flood. Retreating I think it was a sound move. Bakune defintely isn't Karien'el lacky, IMO of course, but it seemed like he was finally at a place where he could do some good on a large scale. The soldiers were fun and I enjoyed the growth of Suth, and Kyle for that matter. I am baised toward anything to do with Iron Bars and the Crimson Guard, as in I find everything about them awesome. Hiam is perhaps my favourite character that came out of the book and his end was tragic yet somehow noble. And not for one minute do I believe Greymane story is done. There is no way he ended up at the Ring hole by accident and knowing how death is somewhat cheap in Wu, I think we will be seeing him again. The Reform storyline ended well enough and I think we are lead to believe that the conflict is not over but Ivak story was. I really enjoyed the book and I can see why some people would be disapointed but for me it was a satisifing read, somewhere in the middle of the pack of the Malazan books IMO

[snake0026]

I kind of agree with Darkwatch with regards to the seeming pointlessness of the Malazan invasion.

As Studlock noted, they were indeed ostensibly sent to punish the deserters on Rool. However, considering all the effort that went into doing so (utilizing the Moranth Blues to successfully break the Marese naval blockade, an unprecedented act, for example), it just seemed to me to be so ridiculously lacking in any kind of logical purpose for the Malazans, an expansionist empire, to expend such resources and then simply up and leave back for Quon Tali without actually conquering anything.

While not an unfair point that there may not have been sufficient manpower to hold Rool (or what little was left of Korelri), I think that if anything, the events of the Stormwall could have been portrayed as an example of Malazan superiority and dominance, and, at least for the near term (which would no doubt be sufficient time for reinforcements to arrive, especially with Marese blockade no longer being an issue), sufficiently discouraged the populace from any kind of insurrection. Nevermind the fact that the militaries of both Rool and Korel/the Stormguard (the two dominant powers of the subcontinent) had both been essentially eliminated by the flood, which, iirc, also only left the city of Storm in Korelri standing anyways, the Malazans could have easily maintained a presence somewhere, a fact that would have also been made that much easier due to the Lady's defeat, effectively allowing for Malazan mages to operate freely, while her former priests would meanwhile be left powerless.

So anyways, I simply had a hard time accepting the whole premise for the Malazan invasion and the way it was resolved, as, again, even if the primary goal was to bring the rogue army to heel, I have a hard time believing that the Empire, particularly under Rel, would not, as a secondary goal at the very least, also wish to actually bring part of the Korel subcontinent under its rule, an act that would no doubt be perceived as a major political triumph and go a long ways towards consolidating his position as Emperor (or at least be more of a political success than simply defeating an army that virtually no one outside of Korel was even aware had gone rogue).

[Studlock]

I see what your saying but I would argue against that they could just have the populace just accept Malazan dominance after the flood, which no doubt would be blamed on the Malazan army. I think somethings people would literally fight to the death for and this would be one of these moment, taking in that the Malazan broke there only defence against world-ending-demons (the Storm Riders) and how rigid there civilization was in the first place, not to mention the built up hate toward Malazan over the occuption. This of course concerning Rool and other kingdoms of Fist. Holding Koreli at this point, again IMO, would be next to pointless. Perhaps the Malazans just wanted to wipe there hands clean of Koreli, seeing as how much of a failure it had been and how much they have been getting into long bloody wars, as well as a civil war and a rebellion to put down. Even the Roman Empire had to stop expanding, as do all empires. They have lost there bread basket to rebellion and plague, the central empire is only recovering from a civil war and the campagins in northern Genabackis have come to stand still. The empire is not at it's best. Of course that brings up the point why invade at all, and again I put to the Sixth as the main reason and perhaps to open trade with the islands as well. I am going of little evidence, that I can't quote but I am pretty sure at some point Fist Rillish has a sit down with Karien'el, it seems to me that it was a formal handing over of the kingdom to him. Another reason could of been for Greymane to simply break the wall. The Lady was a destruction force and if she somehow spread her power, it could of been war again nf Quon Tali. That, of course, was all just speculation, seeing as how we have little evidence to go off of but I can see many reason for the Malazans to come, destroy the Sixth and leave.

[D'iversify]

The Malazan invasion force destroyed a hostile cult, crippled the single sea power who could challenge their navies and smashed the two major military powers in the region (Korelri and renegade ruled Rool). at this point, yes, they could occupy, but given how problematic that's proven in the past, they can instead offer aid and trade to help the subcontinent recover from the tsunami. The defeat of the Lady and of Jourilan's military forces also opens the way for Malazan cults to proselytise and convert. In time, the small, divided Fistian kingdoms may well accept the patronage of the Empire as client kingdoms. Of course, on the other hand, the Crimson Guard to the south in Stratem may have a say otherwise.

[Darkwatch]

D, on 09 April 2011 - 01:21 PM, said:

The Malazan invasion force destroyed a hostile cult, crippled the single sea power who could challenge their navies and smashed the two major military powers in the region (Korelri and renegade ruled Rool). at this point, yes, they could occupy, but given how problematic that's proven in the past, they can instead offer aid and trade to help the subcontinent recover from the tsunami. The defeat of the Lady and of Jourilan's military forces also opens the way for Malazan cults to proselytise and convert. In time, the small, divided Fistian kingdoms may well accept the patronage of the Empire as client kingdoms. Of course, on the other hand, the Crimson Guard to the south in Stratem may have a say otherwise.

Which would make a permanent invasion of Fist a great Strategic feat so as to act as another controlling force on the Crimson Guard.

[Studlock]

I still think culturally it would be hard to occupy, and indeed occupation is different than conquest. They would be hated, it would be like if a foriegn army smashed down a flood wall to a costal city watched as the city was destroyed and then held out a hand to help them. That would breed the worst kind of hate. Not only did they suffer the hilumation of defeat, they also have to look to there enemy for help. Civil unrest would be unending. And again I am sure the populas of the empire proper would be weary of another drawn out war in foriegn lands, nor do I think the empire could handle it. As I stated before they had just suffered a rebellion and then plauge in the main food supplier, a civil war not to mention both of the empire's remaining veteran armies deserting (the Bonehunters and the Host). If war cost alot of money I would wager an occupation would cost more. I think the threat of expanisions Koreli+the 6th would warrent the invasion, plus the growing power of the Lady (though I doubt this is the case). The putting down the 6th and getting Greymane to the Stormwall seem to be the main missions of the invasion, both of the missions succeeded. And I highly doubt the Malazan's are all that worried about the Crimson Gurad seeing as how the just kicked their ass.

I truly think the Empire under Rel has stopped being expanisionist and has been looking more inward given all that has happened in the empire the last couple of years.

[CussersForChristmas]

I agree that the conclusion to SW was unsatisfying, we didn't get resolution to the Bakune storyline, or the Tay storyline.

I thought it was obvious that the rebel CG took down the stormguard tower to save the Crippled God fragments for their patron, and that the lady was just the Crippled god pretending to be an omnipotent god in the land where a majority of his power wound up. He wasn't really omnipotent, he just had enough of a powerbase to oppress nonbelievers but there were plenty of people who weren't on board, the sea folk, the peeps in the huts. I think a lot of the reason that the CG was so powerful was because Korel was stuck in the past, the chaining occurred back in the day so that a lot of modern gods and worship never gained a hold there because the fragments of the CG held everyone in the past.

I think the suppression of the gods was more due to the human element than the CG, previous malazan books make a big deal about worship being a large basis of gods' power, therefor if there's a land full of fanatics to one god stamping out worship of other gods the others will have difficulty manifesting in korel, especially with a manifestation of the CG staking a claim to the entire lands. As for the blood sacrifice in BH (I think) there's mention of blood appeasing the stormriders which suggests they're an elder force, so the CG figured out a pretty clever plan to protect his fragments by tricking an entire people to sacrifice themselves for his protection,

The army of reform was just the active element of a population starting to practice dissent, once the lady (CG) was busy trying to save itself there wasn't time to impress belief as much, and the army didn't worship dassem, they were about worshiping whoever you want, the priestess just happened to be a priestess of dassembrae.

I think a lot of the dissent started with the first malazan invasion which acted as a bridge to modern times, recall that mare doesn't give up their belief in Ruse because they're farther from the lady's influence on the water and have contact with the rest of the world.

I wanted to see some more on Ruthan Gudd too. And I don't think ipshank and manask were fleshed out enough. And there were a ton of allusions to things that aren't explained which is annoying.

I don't think they're bad storytellers but SW definitely does feel a bit unfinished, a lot of the complaints in the OP are imo a case of not using your imagination and information provided to fill in the blanks. ICE doesn't spell everything out explicitly but there's enough information to come to some pretty convincing conclusions on your own, which are one of the thinks I like about both Erikson and ICE's books.

[CussersForChristmas]

And as for the Malazan Empire stopping expansion, it pretty much can't, with such a large standing military there has to be something to do with it to prevent it from turning in on itself The empire is a beast that has to be fed by war imo.

[D'iversify]

CussorsForChristmas, on 26 April 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

And as for the Malazan Empire stopping expansion, it pretty much can't, with such a large standing military there has to be something to do with it to prevent it from turning in on itself The empire is a beast that has to be fed by war imo.

Thinking about it, if the Empire is to further expand, Korel is now the logical option, once the pieces in flux have settled. Shal-Morzinn has been established to be a no-no, there's a stalemate/truce in northern/central Genabackis and nothing of worth, except hyper-militarised Elingarth, in southern Genabackis, Stratem doesn't seem to have much of worth and is controlled by the Crimson Guard and everywhere else is a bit too farflung really (maybe Jacuruku isn't too far, but it doesn't sound a great prospect for conquest either). Which leads to the conclusion that Korel is the best place to expand, but even if the Empire does in future make such an attempt, it may well have reached its limits.

[CussersForChristmas]

D, on 27 April 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

CussorsForChristmas, on 26 April 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

And as for the Malazan Empire stopping expansion, it pretty much can't, with such a large standing military there has to be something to do with it to prevent it from turning in on itself The empire is a beast that has to be fed by war imo.

Thinking about it, if the Empire is to further expand, Korel is now the logical option, once the pieces in flux have settled. Shal-Morzinn has been established to be a no-no, there's a stalemate/truce in northern/central Genabackis and nothing of worth, except hyper-militarised Elingarth, in southern Genabackis, Stratem doesn't seem to have much of worth and is controlled by the Crimson Guard and everywhere else is a bit too farflung really (maybe Jacuruku isn't too far, but it doesn't sound a great prospect for conquest either). Which leads to the conclusion that Korel is the best place to expand, but even if the Empire does in future make such an attempt, it may well have reached its limits.

Unless all the stories made up about Assail are lies meant to discourage conquest and it's heaven on Wu lol. And as for Shal Morzinn I don't think we have enough information to warrant striking that off the list. Remember that the malazan empire is drawing upon population from Malaz, Seven Cities, Quon, Genabackis (which is still heavily conquered with some exceptions. and possible Korel depending on the resolution at the end of Stonewielder. We have one fist's word to go on, and maybe another sentence in passing (I can't quite remember), with some mage recruitment I can't see why it would be any different from any other invasion, there's always a risk.

But I agree that Korel is the next logical step, the stormguards are probably understandably disappointed with their lady's fallibility not to mention mostly dead, large standing armies have been wiped out, the mare blockade has been broken and the religious lay of the land is in turmoil, Greymane's army should do some mop up work and send for another occupying army to solidify the grip on the land and work on some public relations. It could also be a fertile training ground for teaching new loyal mages which are desperately needed in the empire with the sudden access to the warrens and the malazan's partial responsibility that seems like an advantage that should be taken advantage of.

I love conjecture lol.