Malazan Empire: Are Erikson and Esslemont bad storytellers? - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Are Erikson and Esslemont bad storytellers? Yet another frustrating finish to an otherwise awesome book Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Aptorian 

  • How 'bout a hug?
  • Group: The Wheelchairs of War
  • Posts: 24,778
  • Joined: 22-May 06

Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:55 PM

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Stonewielder Spoilers aplenty!

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Apt is a frustrated fanboy right now.

I don't get it. What is it with these two guys. Obviously they know how to string together a good and intelligently designed storyline. And yet, Stonewielder is yet another Malazan book that finishes with an unsatisfying ending where there are more mysteries than closure, and all the threads we thought we knew where were going are either just cut off or left hanging.

Normal storytelling practice dictates that you end your story by wrapping up your storylines. You bring enlightenment to the big mystery. You bring your characters to the finishline or kill them off . You finish what you start, god dammit (or you make it a cliffhanger, if you're a bastard). What you don't do is begin a lot of shit and then just cut the story of with "and then a lot of stuff happened all of a sudden, but I'm not going to tell you anything, that's all folkes, goodnight!".

This isn't just the usual, vague hints, minor mysteries and side character going missing stuff. There's some pretty fucking huge holes left completely wide open with no solution at the end of the book.

What the hell was the Lady really?

Was she actually the CG or an aspect of him evolved from the crippled chunks? Was she some kind of ascendant or spirit that was drawing power from these chunks? Why was she unable to manifest directly and make people into pink mist? Why was she pissed at the Queen of Dreams? How was she able to suppress all the other gods and warrens on an entire continent? What was the deal with the blood sacrifice exactly? Why did the disavowed CG arrive and steal the last chunk? What happened to her? Is she now bound to that last chunk? Is she dead? Did she disappear? WHERE THE FUCK IS SHE!?

What was the deal with the Storm Wall and the Storm Riders? Why did they not just Swim the fuck around the wall? And why did they not just jump over it? Where do they come from? Why did they fight the Lady? Why did they want the chunks? Where have they gone now? How many of them are there? What was their connection to Ruthan Gudd? Why were they so fucking awful at making a coordinated attack after 4000 years of trying?

What happened to the Army of Reform? Are we supposed to believe the rest of the continent just gave up its belief when they took the city and beat the Jourilian idiots? Did no-one oppose them? What happened to the thousand people and the Storm Guard at the big church? Did they die in the earthquake or commit mass suicide? If they did, why did that not seem to help the Lady? Where was Dassem during all this? Surely if one dead fist on a battle field warrents a visit from Dessembrae then an entire continent of people dying in his name should get his attention.

Where the fuck is Tayschren, god dammit? That was the whole point of the Kiska storyline. Don't get me wrong, the search for Tay was probably my favorite storyline in the book, but what the hell kind of way is that to wrap it up? No Tay for you dear reader, but I did kill off the big nasty mage off screen, and then I left our two would be heroes sitting on a beach at the edge of creation. HA HA how confusing. Guess you will just have to wonder for the next 12-18 months whether I am going to finish up this story or not. Also that big nasty vortex that was eating everything, yeah, I'm not going to explain what happened to that either, nope.

Actually I suspect Yeden and Twillight might bump into the two in TCG, but for fucks sake. Could he not at least have ended the storyline with some kind of closure?

See, I get that the whole point of the Malazan universe is that it is Anti-cliché. It is intentionally convoluted and unclear. That the authors are always going to go for the unexpected. For the tragic. For the frustrating point that real life stories do not end happily ever after or with a nice tie that leaves everyone happy and in the know about what happens around them. But ending a book like this. With this many open questions or uncertainties is, well, is it acceptable? I wonder if writing your story like this doesn't hurt your fanbase more than it helps? I am personally really fucking frustrated with the way this book ends. I loved the book all the way through, I think it was in every way an improvement on RCG, but ending a book this way is weak and honestly I think it is a disservice to the reader.
3

#2 User is offline   Unchained God 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: 05-December 10
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Interests:Books, games, movies

Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:01 PM

No, they are not. (Well actually i dont know about ICE yet as I've only read Eriksons work)

Steven Erikson is a fantastic storyteller!!!
Love is for poets
0

#3 User is offline   Illuyankas 

  • Retro Classic
  • Group: The Hateocracy of Truth
  • Posts: 7,254
  • Joined: 28-September 04
  • Will cluck you up

Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:09 PM

I am, quite honestly, agreeing with you about Stonewielder, and ICE. That opinion might change after TCG and ICE's other books, but this really did have a lot of issues.

However on the subject of Erikson, I think you should go reread the Chain of Dogs and then punch yourself in the dick a half billion times.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
0

#4 User is offline   Aptorian 

  • How 'bout a hug?
  • Group: The Wheelchairs of War
  • Posts: 24,778
  • Joined: 22-May 06

Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:09 PM

View PostUnchained God, on 07 December 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

No, they are not. (Well actually i dont know about ICE yet as I've only read Eriksons work)

Steven Erikson is a fantastic storyteller!!!


Yes, but do you get my point, that telling a big story, catching the readers heart and minds in a gripping tale, and then not giving them proper closure on that story can be a problem?

Like I wrote there's no doubt that Erikson (and Esslemont too) are creating some of the best fantasy on the market, but it seems to me that finishing what they start has become a weakness.

From Reapers Gale and on, the stories has started to become more and more disjointed and it is as though they are not sure themselves where exactly the story ends or what should be done with their creations.

Again, I am putting it this way to get a discussion going, I am sure that there are going to be more than a few people who are whole heartedly disagree with this sentiment and will make it very clear very soon.

(puts on flame repellant suit)

EDIT:

People with glass dicks should not go around talking about dick punching, Chicken Man.

As you can read above I am back peddling a bit, I thought that the earlier books that Erikson wrote, where much tighter and as such also supplied much better endings. I have not been happy with endings of BH, RG or TTH (DOD hardly counts as it is a big cliffhanger) and I think a part of the problem lies in that when you can't see where the hell the story is going during the book, you will also be less satisfied when you get to the ending, because you become unsure how the hell you got there.

This post has been edited by Jenisapt Rul: 07 December 2010 - 06:14 PM

0

#5 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

  • Dead Serious
  • View gallery
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,851
  • Joined: 14-July 07
  • Location:The C-Hood

Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:14 PM

i liked this book a lot. but it's true that ICE could have easily written another hundred pages on the ending. it was just rushed as hell and didn't deliver any of the expected answers. i think calling them bad-storytellers is going a little far, but it may be that what they're trying to do is getting way to opaque. maybe the lady will make an appearance in tCG when skinner shows up, which would offer some vindication for ICE, but as it stands it is frustrating.

i'm not quite at the point of spouting expletives, cause i like what was revealed in SW, even if it wasn't what i expected, but i do hope that we'll get something in tCG. maybe we'll find that SW is more accurately an interlude volume between DoD and tCG.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant
0

#6 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,599
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:39 PM

I wouldn't mind the leaving some things open if there was a chance of them actually continuing these stories and getting resolution later, but the next novel is in Assail and the one after in Darujhistan so we can pretty sure that we won't find out what the hell happens in Korel and how any of these things were important. And if we do, it'll be a 1 or 2 line throw away comment, which isn't giving enough detail of the resolution as is deserved.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
0

#7 User is offline   Knight of Darkness 

  • Knight of High House Dark
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 54
  • Joined: 23-June 09
  • Location:Norway

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:01 PM

The Darujhistan book is the next one, Assail is the last. And I think there's a book between that as well.
'None could guess my confusion, my host of deluded illusions and elusive delusions! A mantle of marble hiding a crumbling core of sandstone. See how they stare at me, wondering -all wondering- at my secret wellspring of wisdom...'
'Let's kill him,' Crokus muttered, 'if only to put him out of our misery.'
0

#8 User is offline   Adjutant Stormy~ 

  • Captain, Team Quick Ben
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 1,344
  • Joined: 24-January 08

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:31 PM

Without spoiling myself and reading any of your posts, I'm going to go with "No."
<!--quoteo(post=462161:date=Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM:name=Aptorian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aptorian @ Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=462161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God damn. Mighty drunk. Must ... what is the english movement movement movement for drunk... with out you seemimg drunk?

bla bla bla

Peopleare harrasing me... grrrrrh.

Also people with big noses aren't jews, they're just french

EDIT: We has editted so mucj that5 we're not quite sure... also, leave britney alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
0

#9 User is offline   Gatekeeper 

  • Fist
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 211
  • Joined: 09-April 09
  • Location:Copperas Cove, Texas
  • Interests:Books

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:37 PM

However on the subject of Erikson, I think you should go reread the Chain of Dogs and then punch yourself in the dick a half billion times.
[/quote]

That's the funniest shit I've ever read
HAIL THE MARINES!
0

#10 User is offline   Silencer 

  • Manipulating Special Data
  • Group: Administrators
  • Posts: 5,674
  • Joined: 07-July 07
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Malazan Book of the Fallen series.
    Computer Game Design.
    Programming.

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:52 PM

I agree that ICE may be, but no, Erikson is a great story teller. I've been fully satisfied with RG (though it's by no means one of my favourites in the series), TtH and DoD (and TtH IS one of my favourites, I think that barring RG, Erikson's actually got better over the years), and I think he ends them well. Leaving things hanging is part of his MO, and unfortunately it starts to catch up to you when you're on book 9 of 10...but hey, ever read a history book? So much that they don't cover, that they gloss over...and I'm down with that. I can see what he's doing with it, and I like it. *shrug*

ICE, otoh...I dunno, I liked NoK. It worked. It gave us insights, and while it was by no means a *great* book, it was pretty good. RotCG...struggled. I just got the feeling like he was trying to one-up himself, like he was the guy who had to make things bigger over and over again to have impact. I didn't like that. Well, if you read the ICE criticisms thread there was a LOT I didn't like about RotCG, but that was the major one. I dunno whether he just hasn't hit his stride, or if his style doesn't appeal to me like Erkison's does. Obviously, however, simply writing in the same world as someone a reader likes does not make them like your work. I'm looking forward to Stoneweilder (when I eventually get it...) so I haven't read your post in full for fear of spoilers, and thus can't make full comment (except on the subject of Erikson), but I can see how you may have a point with ICE if Stonewielder suffers from the same or even similar issues to RotCG...
***

Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

0

#11 User is offline   aahz 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 07-November 10

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:54 PM

I haven't read ICE yet, and I'm thinking about it. Though, I can say SE is one of the best storytellers I've read. Okay, many things remain unexplained or just get mentioned, so at the end of every book questions start piling up. And since the characters increase in number, the missing pieces increase if not exponentially, than near exponentially, but it's because SE involves ever larger pieces from a multitude of worlds. So, as one, the question marks are inevitable. Second, I find them fascinating. I keep wondering, my imagination keeps filling the white spots. A story that makes you think, should I say more. And finally, SE is an archeologist and I think that he has seen plenty of those white spots himself. Things, just mentioned by name. But what does it mean? What is the connection between the events. I think it's realistic. The reader never gets to know everything, the events are always colored by the viewpoints of the participants. Does anyone gets something more in the real world?
0

#12 User is offline   Khellendros 

  • Saboteur of High House Mafia
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 7,298
  • Joined: 14-August 07

Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:29 PM

I agree with pretty much everything the OP said about Stonewielder, and have many of the exact same questions - as I posted in the "Pros, Cons" thread a couple of days ago.

My first thought after finishing the book was along the lines of "Good, much better written than RotCG, but unfinished." Definitely feels like an extra hundred pages or so just forgot to be inserted into the final edit.

Also, thinking further on it, RotCG seems now like ICE was trying to fulfil every fan expectation - trying to cram every character possible in there wether it made sense or not, massive, massive battles, tragic deaths, etc. Whereas Stonewielder feels much more like a personal project...but one handed in to fulfil a deadline before it was properly done.
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
0

#13 User is offline   End of Disc One 

  • House Knight
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,865
  • Joined: 30-January 06

Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:42 PM

Without reading any posts, to say that Erikson is bad at writing satisfying endings, you would have to pretend that he didn't write GotM, DG, MoI, MT, and TtH.
0

#14 User is offline   nacht 

  • Mortal Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,046
  • Joined: 16-April 10

Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:07 AM

Before you feel the urge to cuss ICE and SE, remember GRRM and count your blessings. If everthing was clear, we would not be hanging around on this good forum.
0

#15 User is offline   SkunkMonk 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: 10-December 08

Posted 08 December 2010 - 06:33 AM

true, but the story isnt finished yet this was part one of two books and after part two to this book there are two more to come in esselmonts series-and still one more to come with eriksons series so bit early to make such a comment. Although i can understand how frustrating some of the storylines which seem to be somethign important and just faze out but he off sets that with soemthign that either is easily over looked or doesnt important which is suddenly instrumental to a plot or future story line. gotta love him and hate him thats how he rolls lol. his style is unlike any other author in this genre i can thnk of and the dissapointments are easily forgotton by me by the numerous sheer awesomeness of a lot of his charecters plots etc,,

ps lol jenisapt your post was funny as fck and lol end of disc one thats the funniest hair cut ive ever seen cracks me up whenever i look at it what a stupid face

This post has been edited by SkunkMonk: 08 December 2010 - 06:49 AM

0

#16 User is offline   Stalker 

  • House Knight
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 1,999
  • Joined: 09-October 08
  • Location:Upstate NY

Posted 08 December 2010 - 06:49 AM

I agree with what has been said about lack of resolution in ICE's novels, and I agree with that. I do not think it makes him a bad storyteller though, and I absolutely disagree in SE's case. I am sure that ICE will wrap up some of those questions in the Assail book, which I bet focuses on Kyle's return to his home and what is occuring there. Even SE may have a part wrapping up some of the plotlines, especially Kiska looking for Tay, and likely meeting Yeden and Twilight. While some plotlines may not be resolved, we can only hope. I'd like to know more about the rider's motives, what happened to the lady and how the blood magic/ warren suppression worked.

In regards to the lady- one of the avowed mentions that the chests contain pieces of the "entity posing as the lady." Which to me says the CG. Thus, it would make sense for Skinner and co. to come collect the chest as he is now the King of the House of Chains. Skinner is a great choice to guard a piece of TCG, who better to protect his god?
0

#17 User is offline   Stalker 

  • House Knight
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 1,999
  • Joined: 09-October 08
  • Location:Upstate NY

Posted 08 December 2010 - 06:56 AM

@Skunk- there is no second book to Stonewielder. The PS Publishing special edition split the book into two volumes, but Stonewielder is the complete thing. Which explains the frustration.

All we have left confirmed from ICE is the Darjihistan novel and the Assail novel.
0

#18 User is offline   Jorram 

  • High Fist
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 383
  • Joined: 07-June 04

Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:37 AM

There is a also a Jacuruku novel. Dig it up in one of the interviews on Pat's blog :hulk:
0

#19 User is offline   Mulch 

  • Fist
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 242
  • Joined: 24-September 03
  • Location:Newcastle, UK

Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:07 AM

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiment here about the vagaries of the books we have to take them as series rather than independent novels, if after TCG we don’t have resolution and closure then I may agree about Erikson.

The same goes of ICE, if when reading his ‘series’ we have closure then fair enough. However if he sees his books as standalone novels then yes, he has failed as they should have clear closure.

This post has been edited by Mulch: 08 December 2010 - 10:08 AM

"Here's to beer!, the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" Homer Simpson
0

#20 User is offline   Khellendros 

  • Saboteur of High House Mafia
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 7,298
  • Joined: 14-August 07

Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:14 AM

If there really is Jackuruku novel coming as well then I might hold off on judgement on SW till then - it's the only novel where I can see it possible to at least try and resolve some of the huge lingering questions - what are the Stormriders, what was the Lady, what will happen in Korel now - left over from SW.


Quote

In regards to the lady- one of the avowed mentions that the chests contain pieces of the "entity posing as the lady." Which to me says the CG. Thus, it would make sense for Skinner and co. to come collect the chest as he is now the King of the House of Chains. Skinner is a great choice to guard a piece of TCG, who better to protect his god?


You're right, but I've got to say it disappoints me if that Avowed is correct. The being we see at the very beginning of SW - the giant, rotting, fish-scaled woman - just doesn't strike me as very CG-like, even if he took another form (which I don't think he'd have the power to do anyway). It also pours even more confusion on the motivation of the Stormriders - at least when it seemed they were hunting this fish-scaled Lady you could assume that they both originally came from the sea and that's where their enmity originated, with the Lady escaping to Korel in order to get away from them. Perhaps it should be hoped that the Avowed was only guessing, and doesn't really know the truth.
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
0

Share this topic:


  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users