[L'oric]

Was re-reading random parts of the Gardents of the Moon when I came across this little passage. From the Tor Edition pg. 346 several pages into chapter 11.

Crokus glanced up at his uncle. "what have you been writing all these years?" he asked suddenly, gesturing at the desk.
Surprised, Mammot picked up his cup and sat back. "Well! A genuine interest in education, then? Finally? As I've said before, Crokus, you possess the intelligence to go far. And while I'm but a humble man of letters, my word will open to you many doors in the city. Indeed, even the City Council is not beyond you reach, if you would choose such a direction. Discipline, lad, the very requirement you've mastered as a thief."
A crafty expression glittered in Crokus's gaze as it held on Mammot. "How long would it take," he asked quietly, "to become known in such circles?"
"Well," said Mammot, "It's the learning that matters, of course."
"Of course." In Crokus's mind, however, there rose the image of a sleeping maiden.
Mammot blew on his drink. "With full-time studies, and your youthful eagerness. I would hazard a year, perhaps more, perhaps less. Is there a need for haste?"
"Just youthful eagerness, I suppose. In any case, you haven't answered me yet. What are you writing, Uncle?"
"Ah." Mammot glanced at his desk, raising an eyebrow at Moby, who had opened an inkwell and was drinking from it. "The history of Darujhistan," he said. "I am just beginning the fifth volume, which opens with the reign of Ektalm, second to last of the Tyrant Kings."
Crokus blinked. "Who?"
Smiling Mammot sipped his tea. "Usurper of Letastte and suceeded by his daughter, Sandenay, who brought on the Rising Time and with it the end of the age of tyrants."

It goes on for another page or so, but thats what I wanted to focus on.

1- I knew Crokus was able to become a wizard or why would "uncle" Mammot High Mage of Driss have taken an interest in him, unless he was of the mortal line of his progeny or some such. Still that would bode well for Crokus's abilities in that area. When he sees the sleeping woman its clear he is thinking of chalice but he is in the presence of someone who is closely attuned to the earth. I don't think its too far a stretch to add the the Sleeping goddess Burn to SE's foreshadowing.

2- Anyone who has read Toll the Hounds or any of the other books have anything more to add to the Tyrants tidbit? I think it could be that the Tyrant that is returning could be Letastte, and that Sandenay ended her threat somehow and thus the need for more Tyrants, or Sandenay brought about the end of Tyrants and doomed herself with the Rising Time.

Anyway. Was hoping to see if anyone remembered anything more to see if we could get a collection of quotes about the Tyrants and about the cast of characters this book will draw upon.


Sincerely
L'oric

[Aptorian]

L, on 06 December 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

1- I knew Crokus was able to become a wizard or why would "uncle" Mammot High Mage of Driss have taken an interest in him, unless he was of the mortal line of his progeny or some such. Still that would bode well for Crokus's abilities in that area. When he sees the sleeping woman its clear he is thinking of chalice but he is in the presence of someone who is closely attuned to the earth. I don't think its too far a stretch to add the the Sleeping goddess Burn to SE's foreshadowing.

This is conjecture.

Mammot was helping Crokus because he was in his care. Mammot was first and foremost a scholar it would seem. His interest is not in making Crokus a mage or anything like that, he simply wants Crokus to have options, an education and a position in the council would set Crokus up for a life of wealth and security. Mammot was simply acting like a concerned parent or Guardian.

Crokus is not a mage, I am curious why you would think he could or should become one.

I do remember that some link between Crokus and the Tyrants was brought up once, but I can't remember if this was actually book info or a crazy theory.

When Crokus is thinking of the "Sleeping Maiden" it has nothing to do with Burn and everything to do with him being a horny teenager.

[amphibian]

Jenisapt'Rul, I think you are giving L'oric less credit than he deserves. He points out that "sleeping maiden" is indeed in reference to Challice, but also has a possible underlying connotation with Burn.

I postulate that Burn's been around for so long that she's no longer a maiden, so the likelihood that Erikson was truly trying for a Burn reference there is low.

The difference (if one exists) between the "Tyrant Kings" spoken of by Mammot and "the Tyrant" that Mammot, Baruk, Derudan and Vorcan are so terrified of has not been made clear. Most people around here think the Tyrant Kings were mere humans while the Tyrant was not. It seems to be clear that whoever the Tyrant is, that person is at least on a level with Raest (or might still yet be Raest) as Anomander offers his aid to Baruk in Toll the Hounds in dealing with those trying to resurrect the Tyrant, only to be declined.

In short, what L'oric presents is possible, but as of right now, unlikely. We won't know for sure until this book comes out - which means... buy Stonewielder!

[Aptorian]

But it would be such a clumsy and non-transparent way of making that connection. What more there has been no other connection made between Darujistan and Burn.

Personally I am of the opinion that "The Tyrant" is not a person but a power. As in some magical means of old, maybe an old recipe for ascendency, lies hidden under Darujistan. The Ironmonger guy who appears to be digging for the Tyrant in TTH was, I suspect, looking for some kind of well of power or some magical instrument he could use to usurp the power of the old Tyrant(s).

[L'oric]

Jenisapt Rul, on 06 December 2010 - 07:58 PM, said:

This is conjecture.

Mammot was helping Crokus because he was in his care. Mammot was first and foremost a scholar it would seem. His interest is not in making Crokus a mage or anything like that, he simply wants Crokus to have options, an education and a position in the council would set Crokus up for a life of wealth and security. Mammot was simply acting like a concerned parent or Guardian.

Crokus is not a mage, I am curious why you would think he could or should become one.

I do remember that some link between Crokus and the Tyrants was brought up once, but I can't remember if this was actually book info or a crazy theory.

When Crokus is thinking of the "Sleeping Maiden" it has nothing to do with Burn and everything to do with him being a horny teenager.

Mammot was one of a Cabal of High Wizards that were formed to prevent the Return of the Tyrant. As such he was not at all foremost a scholar. However lets say he was a Scholar first and foremost and a High Mage second. That would mean he would, by lifespan at the least, be one of the best scholars in Darujhistan if not Genebackis, and he sees in Crokus the ability to "go far." The next line is ambiguious and Erickson at his best if you ask me. "Even the city council is not beyond your reach, should you choose to go that direction." What other direction is there? Warrior? Again consider the source of the quote. Scholar? A scholar like Mammot? That would make him a mage. Consider as well that as the sword chance changed Paran so would the Coin change Crokus. Paran went from Captain of the Bridgeburners to Master of the Deck. Crokus going from Thief to Assassin is pretty tame by comparison. However if indeed assassin he has become he was taught those moves by...The Patron of Assassins/Apsalar who tells Lostara Yil that the Shadow Dance was infact a martial Art...and we are back to him being able to become a mage again.

I'm not saying he will be, I am just saying he can be (by the rules set forth by the writer who can of course do anything he wants to anything character including coming right out and saying that Crokus cant use magic. Remember this is the same writer who said Whiskeyjack wasnt coming back.), and wouldn't that make him at least a little more interesting than the Apsalar doesn't love me crooner he tends to fall into?

Now the Sleeping goddess tie is far fetched. Sure. Isn't that what we are here to do? We are talking of a book that is a year or two away at best. Wild conjecture is par for the course and half the fun IMO. Genebackis has a strong tie in with the sleeping Goddess as the Panion Domin is currently residing and keeping her free of the Crippled Gods taint. The issue of the Crippled God will have come to some sort of conclusion by the time this novel is written and thus perhaps the Crippled Gods poisoning of burn. Will she need to sleep? Caladan Brood her Champion/Mortal Sword/High Priest whatever is based and has been based on Genebackis for some time. So yeah easily dismissed impossibles, but I am wondering...maybe someone else wants to wonder in the same direction. Thus the post.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[L'oric]

amphibian, on 06 December 2010 - 08:18 PM, said:

The difference (if one exists) between the "Tyrant Kings" spoken of by Mammot and "the Tyrant" that Mammot, Baruk, Derudan and Vorcan are so terrified of has not been made clear. Most people around here think the Tyrant Kings were mere humans while the Tyrant was not. It seems to be clear that whoever the Tyrant is, that person is at least on a level with Raest (or might still yet be Raest) as Anomander offers his aid to Baruk in Toll the Hounds in dealing with those trying to resurrect the Tyrant, only to be declined.

In short, what L'oric presents is possible, but as of right now, unlikely. We won't know for sure until this book comes out - which means... buy Stonewielder!

If Stonewielder was in the local Miami Bookstore right now I would buy it tonight.

Now as to a break between the Tyrant Kings and the Tyrant that is interesting. If the Tyrant Kings were not the Tyrant then they were merely copying the Tyrant type of rule. In which case the last of them and the Rising Time would be lessened in importance IMO. Would a history of Darujhistan not mention that dread Tyrant that the Cabal was formed to stop? If so then the history of Darujhistan which he goes on to explain in that scene to Crokus would be much different from the truth. Something characters in MBotF love to do is lie and we take it as truth. Darujhistan was born on a rumor, but if the Tyrant Kings are not the Tyrant then it would Born as a lie about a rumor so that that real tyrant would never come back.



This is fun.

L'oric

[champ]

L, on 06 December 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

"Even the city council is not beyond your reach, should you choose to go that direction."
What other direction is there? Warrior? Again consider the source of the quote. Scholar? A scholar like Mammot? That would make him a mage.

I think Mammot is just suggesting that there are a lot of various activities out there for a talented boy, rather than been a thief. And been a scholar wouldn't make him a mage, fair enough he may be taught/educated by a mage but there are plenty of scholars out there that aren't mages!

Whilst I love wild speculation, I find it hard - yes, even for SE - to believe that Crokus will turn out to be a mage or for SE to take him down that path...

L, on 06 December 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Consider as well that as the sword chance changed Paran so would the Coin change Crokus. Paran went from Captain of the Bridgeburners to Master of the Deck. Crokus going from Thief to Assassin is pretty tame by comparison. However if indeed assassin he has become he was taught those moves by...The Patron of Assassins/Apsalar who tells Lostara Yil that the Shadow Dance was infact a martial Art...and we are back to him being able to become a mage again.

I don't think the sword Chance changed Paran, he was been used and it may of helped open his eyes to the world of the gods but it's mentioned somewhere that Tayschrenn was grooming Tattersail to become Master of the Deck (Side note how the hell does he manage something like that!?!?!?) and with her death it may of rebounded to someone close to hear, all speculation on this though... Plus the Hounds blood will of gone a long way in changing him...

Jenisapt Rul, on 06 December 2010 - 08:29 PM, said:

Personally I am of the opinion that "The Tyrant" is not a person but a power. As in some magical means of old, maybe an old recipe for ascendency, lies hidden under Darujistan. The Ironmonger guy who appears to be digging for the Tyrant in TTH was, I suspect, looking for some kind of well of power or some magical instrument he could use to usurp the power of the old Tyrant(s).

Funny how for different people a simple sentence/phrase can mean so many different things... I like that speculation though...

For me I see it as the "Tyrant Kings" were pretty much wonnabes succeeding the one mofo who was all powerful, "THE Tyrant" The one badass who no-one would mess with, the Tyrant of Tyrants!

This post has been edited by champooon: 06 December 2010 - 09:59 PM

[L'oric]

champooon, on 06 December 2010 - 09:53 PM, said:

I think Mammot is just suggesting that there are a lot of various activities out there for a talented boy, rather than been a thief. And been a scholar wouldn't make him a mage, fair enough he may be taught/educated by a mage but there are plenty of scholars out there that aren't mages!

Whilst I love wild speculation, I find it hard - yes, even for SE - to believe that Crokus will turn out to be a mage or for SE to take him down that path...

I don't think the sword Chance changed Paran, he was been used and it may of helped open his eyes to the world of the gods but it's mentioned somewhere that Tayschrenn was grooming Tattersail to become Master of the Deck (Side note how the hell does he manage something like that!?!?!?) and with her death it may of rebounded to someone close to hear, all speculation on this though... Plus the Hounds blood will of gone a long way in changing him...

Well what if that scholar was a nearly immortal High mage ruler of the largest city on a continent? I see it as if my guidance councilor says I can go far in life then she means yeah I can be mayor or something, but if my guidance councilor was currently sitting on the Supreme Court....the source matters here IMO. As you point out SE will do whatever it is he wants and most likely I will never come up with a theory that will be true but what if...its possible and not that crazy is all Im saying. It would go far to know exactly why Mammot is his "uncle." Is he foundling? Is he distantly related to him? Is he like Kiska is to Agayla? Was that her name from Night of Knives?

As to the Sword Chance's hand in changing Paran I think that...
Why would is rebound to Paran if not because of Pull of the Lady push of the lord? Why would the Hounds blood mixwith his own and send him into the very place they are trapped and then become part of him? Other than SE wanting it that way that is . The coin put Crokus in contact with Apsalar/Cotillion, with the coin he became interested in a world that Mammot had been hoping he would go into for years. Those steps would be following in his own footsteps as a scholar. He uses the skills taught to him by Apsalar to "beat" the best non magical ssassin in Darujhistan. He has walked in step with Icarium and Mappo and Fiddler (yes Fiddler and Icarium are as important as each other ) Is currently hanging out with Spite. All because of that coin and the path it set him on. I say its 50 50 he will be the First Sword of Durujhistan or Master of its Assassin Guild by the time its said and done....heheheh ok ok maybe too far.

L'oric

[Ceda Cicero]

There are some cogent lines of thought in this theory, except for the inclusion of the Crokus bit, for two reasons.

1. Crokus's peers being concerned about his chosen profession as a thief is an ongoing theme of his character in GotM. We see it from Mammot, we see it from Murillio, we see it from Rallick. Mammot's conversation with Crokus as posted by the OP is just another in an ongoing series of similar conversations that we see take place on this very same subject. Mammot being a Priest of D'riss and Mage of the Cabal is incidental. It seems clear to me here that he's speaking as a concerned uncle who only wants more for his nephew.

The second contains a possible TtH spoiler.

Spoiler

2. Crokus is very resolutely leaving Darujhistan at the end of TtH, with Sister Spite no less. He's "done Darujhistan" in a manner of speaking. The next time/if we see him again I highly doubt it will be near the City of Blue Fire.

I suppose it's possible, insofar as anything is possible. But in my mind, considering how things unfold for TtH and wind up with Crokus making the reasonable decision that he does at the end (see #2), and even more importantly, considering what we know about GotM and GotMisms. Maybe I'm a cynic when it comes to GotMisms, but, on the off chance that Crokus wound up being a mage, I would have a hard time believing it wasn't a retcon based on an obscure conversation from GotM that is more than likely about something else.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 06 December 2010 - 11:28 PM

[WickanAssasin]

champooon, on 06 December 2010 - 09:53 PM, said:

I don't think the sword Chance changed Paran, he was been used and it may of helped open his eyes to the world of the gods but it's mentioned somewhere that Tayschrenn was grooming Tattersail to become Master of the Deck (Side note how the hell does he manage something like that!?!?!?) and with her death it may of rebounded to someone close to hear, all speculation on this though... Plus the Hounds blood will of gone a long way in changing him...

on that side note, hes Tayschrenn, he can do whatever he wants!

[D'rek]

Two pedantic points:

1 - The T'orrud Cabal wasn't formed to prevent the Tyrant's return. They existed during the Tyrant's reign and may even have been the Tyrant's own servant mage cadre (just like the Seguleh were the Tyrant's private army).

2 - Darujhistan is only a few thousand years. Mammot may be pretty damn old for a human in that case, but he's got nothing on a lot of the other characters we've seen in these books. Plus, like the rest of the T'orrud, he never seems to have left Darujhistan, so I wouldn't necessarily consider him *that* great of a scholar.

[MTS]

D, on 16 December 2010 - 04:27 PM, said:

Two pedantic points:

1 - The T'orrud Cabal wasn't formed to prevent the Tyrant's return. They existed during the Tyrant's reign and may even have been the Tyrant's own servant mage cadre (just like the Seguleh were the Tyrant's private army).

Which raises some interesting questions as to why they wouldn't want him to return.

Quote

2 - Darujhistan is only a few thousand years. Mammot may be pretty damn old for a human in that case, but he's got nothing on a lot of the other characters we've seen in these books. Plus, like the rest of the T'orrud, he never seems to have left Darujhistan, so I wouldn't necessarily consider him *that* great of a scholar.

If the Cabal members were born around the age of the Tyrant, they'd probably only be around 600 years old IIRC, which is a pittance compared to Spinnock's twenty thousand.

[Silk]

Ciceronian, on 06 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

I suppose it's possible, insofar as anything is possible. But in my mind, considering how things unfold for TtH and wind up with Crokus making the reasonable decision that he does at the end (see #2), and even more importantly, considering what we know about GotM and GotMisms. Maybe I'm a cynic when it comes to GotMisms, but, on the off chance that Crokus wound up being a mage, I would have a hard time believing it wasn't a retcon based on an obscure conversation from GotM that is more than likely about something else.

Looking at the Kiska / Argayla history what is being suggested is not that far fetched as Argayla did try get Kiska to into the magic sphere but didn't succeed.... so the potential could be there

[MTS]

IIRC Agayla wanted Kiska to be a mage because there was a serious lack of practitioners on Malaz Island after Laseen's purge in the Mouse, so there weren't enough strong mages to repel the Stormriders. I don't think there's an analogous situation with the T'orrud Cabal. Perhaps after Vorcan started knocking most of them off it became an issue, but Mammot's comment comes before that and he dies not long after so the point is really moot.

Anyway, if Mammot had taken him in because he intended him to become a mage and possible future member of the Cabal, I think he would have taken a firmer hold with him and, you know, actually made an effort to teach him magic. From what we've seen, that wasn't the case. Mammot's desire in the passage you're looking at is to give him a rounded education so he can make something of himself. Mammot is a historian too, so his scholarly pursuits have little to do with magery anyway.

Nevertheless, his connection to the T'orrud Cabal and his deceptively capable circle of friends make you wonder if he doesn't have something to do with it, so I'm not completely shitting on your theory, just the mage angle. Mammot took Crokus in because his parents had died of plague when he was four. There are multiple reasons why Mammot would have done this, and you can easily think of some more ulterior motives than altruism on Mammot's part.

Personally, I hope it doesn't turn out that Crokus was descended of the Tyrants or the son of some massively important people or something, as that is far too cliche, but the elements are definitely there.

[Abyss]

Thread necromancy strike HAI!

MTS, on 18 December 2010 - 01:30 PM, said:

... I hope it doesn't turn out that Crokus was descended of the Tyrants or the son of some massively important people or something, as that is far too cliche, but the elements are definitely there.

I agree - Crokus doing the 'long lost heir' thing would be serious fists of ham sotrytelling.

I AM however, curious whether ICE leaves Crokus aside where SE left him at the end of TCG, of draws him back.

His storyline in TTH would seem to have settled his remaining D'stan ties and moved him onwards. It would almost seem pointless to draw him back.

Otoh, Crokus and Apsalar are entirely enjoyable characters who i wouldn't mind seeing in action again.

[Kanese S's]

Quote

"Well! A genuine interest in education, then? Finally? As I've said before, Crokus, you possess the intelligence to go far. And while I'm but a humble man of letters, my word will open to you many doors in the city. Indeed, even the City Council is not beyond you reach, if you would choose such a direction. Discipline, lad, the very requirement you've mastered as a thief."

Let's just remember for a second that the T'orrud Cabal and the Darujhistan City Council are two separate organizations. You don't have to be a mage or a warrior to be on the council.

[buddhacat]

Getting back to the title of this post ... Rising Time = Icarium.

[worry]

Or his brother, Bicurius.

[blackzoid]

You know, OST will probably be set before TCG. So Crokus may still be near enough to the city.
He may be involved in that treasure-hunters story perhaps.

[MTS]

Abyss, on 13 September 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

Thread necromancy strike HAI!

MTS, on 18 December 2010 - 01:30 PM, said:

... I hope it doesn't turn out that Crokus was descended of the Tyrants or the son of some massively important people or something, as that is far too cliche, but the elements are definitely there.

I agree - Crokus doing the 'long lost heir' thing would be serious fists of ham sotrytelling.

I AM however, curious whether ICE leaves Crokus aside where SE left him at the end of TCG, of draws him back.

His storyline in TTH would seem to have settled his remaining D'stan ties and moved him onwards. It would almost seem pointless to draw him back.

Otoh, Crokus and Apsalar are entirely enjoyable characters who i wouldn't mind seeing in action again.

No, they've been given the 'happy ending' treatment, in my mind either of them shouldn't be brought back to Darujhistan unless there's a credible reason for doing so, and I can't see one in this instance unless the book opens with Apsalar throwing a fishing hook at Crokus' head, or they get tired of smelling like fish and decide to go for a wander. Even doing that or the 'I miss home' angle won't work anyway, because that's been done and Crokus is himself done with Darujhistan - he has no reason to go back, as at this time he's missing an Obi-Wan-esque astral projection of Baruk saying 'you must come back! Darujhistan needs you!'. Darujhistan is bigger than Crokus and the other Phoenix Inn regulars, having Crokus appear would simply be a baffling piece of 'fan service' in my mind.