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#41 User is offline   The Seguleh 46th 

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:17 AM

View PostJenisapt Rul, on 11 December 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

The fact that she is promising Temper to carve him out an entire continent as a kingdom, or something like that, and a number of other hints pegged her as a potential Tyrant at least (never mind the fact that Jaghut's are notorious liars)



That's why i pegged her for a potential former Tyrant as well. Could of been nothing though, as she is obviously desperate to escape her role as Guardian. Still, there it is though.

Also, was thinking about Assail today for some reason, and i wonder if its simple as something along the lines of what happened regarding the Beast Ritual in the HFE under Dessimbelackis? I mean, are we ever given a reason (other than pride) of why the T'lan Imass are even venturing to Assail? Maybe it has been stated, not sure. As far as i see it, they are going there to slaughter, war, or potentially cleanup whateer is happening there. And someone stated something about those Jacuruku mages seeking a new means of Ascendancy, and that was at least some of the point of the ancient Beast Ritual if i have the right of it. Maybe some kind of big crazy thing going on that is on par or even exceeding Dessimbelackis' old Ritual, that the TI figure only they can stop in their arrogance?

Stab in the dark i know, but all attempts are really pretty much the same at this point anyways......and rereading this, i'm not sure if i even believe myself.......:)

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 12 December 2010 - 01:19 AM

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#42 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:34 AM

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 12 December 2010 - 01:17 AM, said:

View PostJenisapt Rul, on 11 December 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

The fact that she is promising Temper to carve him out an entire continent as a kingdom, or something like that, and a number of other hints pegged her as a potential Tyrant at least (never mind the fact that Jaghut's are notorious liars)



That's why i pegged her for a potential former Tyrant as well. Could of been nothing though, as she is obviously desperate to escape her role as Guardian. Still, there it is though.

Also, was thinking about Assail today for some reason, and i wonder if its simple as something along the lines of what happened regarding the Beast Ritual in the HFE under Dessimbelackis? I mean, are we ever given a reason (other than pride) of why the T'lan Imass are even venturing to Assail? Maybe it has been stated, not sure. As far as i see it, they are going there to slaughter, war, or potentially cleanup whateer is happening there. And someone stated something about those Jacuruku mages seeking a new means of Ascendancy, and that was at least some of the point of the ancient Beast Ritual if i have the right of it. Maybe some kind of big crazy thing going on that is on par or even exceeding Dessimbelackis' old Ritual, that the TI figure only they can stop in their arrogance?

Stab in the dark i know, but all attempts are really pretty much the same at this point anyways......and rereading this, i'm not sure if i even believe myself.......:)


Ah, I had forgotten that bit of Jhenna's speech. Nevertheless, there's a difference in slaughtering a whole continent and enslaving it. The Tyrants enslaved the Imass, they didn't annihilate them until the Imass/T'lan Imass wised up and fought back. So Jhenna may be ruthless indeed, but it still doesn't cement her as a Tyrant.

As for why the T'lan Imass were going to Assail - we have no idea why the first two armies (the Kerluhm and Ifayle) got into a war on Assail. The Kron (and likely the Logros) went to Assail to try and help the surviving Kerluhm and Ifayle. I'd also point out that Lanas Tog (the one who brings word of Assail goings-ons in MoI) seems to indicate the T'lan Imass have only been fighting on Assail for 8 months up to the Second Gathering (approximately).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#43 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 06:05 PM

Hmm, her demeanour seems very odd for a Jaghut, more like Raest in 'shining blinding bright with one's own power' than say Gothos or Ganath who are more reserved in their dealings, not interested in war, or indeed conflict of any kind. It's rather interesting the comparison you can make between Jhenna and Gothos in how they deal with their service to the Azath. In any case, I would not class Jhenna as tyrannical. Raest's thirst to control and dominate seemed almost compulsive, something he was bound to do by his very nature. I didn't get that impression with Jhenna, in fact her offers to Temper seemed almost desperate. Would a Tyrant negotiate with a mere mortal? Would it offer a kingdom for someone else to control? Doubtful. No, I think she was just sick of being the Guardian and would have offered anything in exchange for her freedom.

As for the Imass, if you consider that there seems to be some manipulation of life and death magic involved, quite similar to both the Crimson Guard and the T'lan Imass themselves, it is unsurprising why they involved themselves. The T'lan Imass only started the Great Slaughter after the Beast Ritual went out of control, and the First Empire started to collapse from the chaos generated from it. It's quite ironic when you think about them coming in to clean that mess, considering the source of both the Soletaken and the T'lan Imass, but I digress. The T'lan Imass are going to Assail now to save their kin from the predicament they are in. From all accounts it seems people expect them to fail miserably there, as they already have.
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#44 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:44 PM

Maybe Assail is where the Soletaken Jaghut lives!
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#45 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 01:42 AM

Hmm.. Wasn't planning on chiming in on this thread, because I have nothing to add besides speculation, but as I was busying myself about my first re-read of DG tonight, I noticed this passage, from Sormo:

Quote

To stem the tides of invading humans, they raised ice. In places it swallowed entire continents, obliterating all that once stood upon them.... The highest of Omtose Phellack, these rituals never die, Historian. They rise, subside, and rise yet again. Even now, one is born anew on a distant land, and those rivers of ice fill my dreams, for they are destined to create vast upheaval, and death in numbers unimaginable.


Is Sormo referring to Assail here? It's not 7C, Genabackis, Quon Tali. I haven't gotten to Stonewielder yet but from what little I know I doubt it's Korelri or Jacuruku. That leaves the Lether landmass and Assail. And at this time, IIRC, Gothos's ritual on Lether was waning, breaking apart after millennia. Certainly not being "born anew."

So could Sormo be referencing a surge in a high Omtose Phellack ritual on Assail?

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 13 December 2010 - 03:48 AM

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

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#46 User is offline   masan's saddle 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 01:44 AM

View PostShadowRaven, on 17 November 2010 - 01:06 AM, said:



"The T'lann Imass before them was shorter, squatter than Tool. Three black-iron broadswords of unfamiliar style impaled this undead warrior's broad, massive chest, two of them driven in from behind, the other from the T'lan Imass's left. Broken ribs jutted through black, salt-rimed skin. The leather strapping of all three swords handles hung rotted, unravelled strips from the grips' wooden underplates. Wispy remnants of old sorcery flowed fitfully along the pitted blades."

If they are walking around there with magic imbued weapons, I would assume there are a loooot of mages prancing around too.


Somebody else upthread mentioned a possible similarity to Letheri bluesteel ?
In MT I seem to remember Kuru Qan having an entire armory full of ensorceled blades from "Lether's past", 2 of which get given to Ruin. Anyway this got me thinking about another potential similarity between Lether and Assail. There is the whole Hold of Death thing (or lack of one) going on, but is it fair to assume that the humans on Assail are the descendants of another "lost" First Empire colony like Lether ?

There is an obvious difference in that the Assail colony did'nt degenerate into a bunch of girl's blouses like the Letheri did, but could this be down to a continuation/improvement of Dessimbelackis' original ritual or the "sorcery" used, leading to some sort of soletaken/ soulshifting/ death defying awesomeness? This would certainly be a good enough reason for the T'lan to get involved.

This post is about to turn into incoherent gibberish ( if it has'nt already done so) but the really decent sounding theory I had about 30 mins ago that I now can't piece together again properly was essentially triggered by the chat ghost Hedge has with the T'lan. There are ghosts in Lether and ghosts in Assail. The First Empire (human Tyrant) was originally 7C where we have seen ghosts....ermm, Tanno spiritwalker (old magic)......, ghosts...., Quick Ben and the souls within him (ghosts?), Hedge's knowledge of Assail....ghost armies......, something else....., and er..., back to Assail (oh and Letheri bluesteel killed Wraiths....ghosts.):)


Bollocks. I know you don't believe me but I swear for a minute there, I thought I had something.

Move along, there's nothing to see here. :)
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#47 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:45 AM

View PostCiceronian, on 13 December 2010 - 01:42 AM, said:

Hmm.. Wasn't planning on chiming in on this thread, because I have nothing to add besides speculation, but as I was busying myself about my first re-read of DG tonight, I noticed this passage, from Sormo:

Quote

To stem the tides of invading humans, they raised ice. In places it swallowed entire continents, obliterating all that once stood upon them.... The highest of Omtose Phellack, these rituals never die, Historian. They rise, subside, and rise yet again. Even now, one is born anew on a distant land, and those rivers of ice fill my dreams, for they are destined to create vast upheaval, and death in numbers unimaginable.


Is Sormo referring to Assail here? It's not 7C, Genabackis, Quon Tali. I haven't gotten to Stonewielder yet but from what little I know I doubt it's Korelri or Jacuruku. That leaves the Lether landmass and Assail. And at this time, IIRC, Gothos's ritual on Lether was waning, breaking apart after millennia. Certainly not being "born anew."

So could Sormo be referencing a surge in a high Omtose Phellack reference on Assail?

Wow, that's a great pick-up. It could be in reference to the Stormriders though. Can humans wield Omtose Phellack? Possible, I suppose, we've seen practitioners of other Elder warrens, like Kurald Galain and Kurald Liosan.

@MS, that's not all bollocks. Placing Assail as a First Empire colony is a very interesting idea. Not sure about the ghosts bit, we've seen ghosts on Genabackis as well, I doubt it's a confined phenomenon.

This post has been edited by MTS: 13 December 2010 - 03:45 AM

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#48 User is offline   The Seguleh 46th 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 05:32 AM

View PostMTS, on 12 December 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:

The T'lan Imass are going to Assail now to save their kin from the predicament they are in.


But why did they put themselves in that mess in the first place is what i can't wait to find out! What has essentially driven the TI in this series that we know for certain? All things Jaghut, false gods, Rituals and/or major events which threaten the fabric of Wu and/or any particular Realm, and hunting down renegade TI. I imagine i have missed one or two other things, but that's what i got off the top of my head for now. Wonder which one was their motivation for Assail? Be a nasty cocktail if was a bit of all of the above! But i seriously digress.......

Edit: Add in wanting to die, or rather, cease to exist in reality via Tattersail and the Second Gathering, for a fifth motivation of the TI in this series. Not sure if that could have something to do with Assail, but i really doubt it, yet ya can't really discount anything here.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 13 December 2010 - 05:37 AM

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#49 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:13 AM

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 05:32 AM, said:

View PostMTS, on 12 December 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:

The T'lan Imass are going to Assail now to save their kin from the predicament they are in.


But why did they put themselves in that mess in the first place is what i can't wait to find out! What has essentially driven the TI in this series that we know for certain? All things Jaghut, false gods, Rituals and/or major events which threaten the fabric of Wu and/or any particular Realm, and hunting down renegade TI. I imagine i have missed one or two other things, but that's what i got off the top of my head for now. Wonder which one was their motivation for Assail? Be a nasty cocktail if was a bit of all of the above! But i seriously digress.......

Edit: Add in wanting to die, or rather, cease to exist in reality via Tattersail and the Second Gathering, for a fifth motivation of the TI in this series. Not sure if that could have something to do with Assail, but i really doubt it, yet ya can't really discount anything here.

Well, if it has something to do with the Jaghut like some seem to think, the answer is obvious. The T'lan Imass are pretty much against tyranny of all forms though, that's pretty much their schtick, and their reason for eradicating the Jaghut in the first place. It's why Ibra Gholan and Monok Ochem went and killed L'oric's familiar, because they were under the impression it was deceiving the Liosan into thinking it was a god as the Jaghut had done to the Imass. Anyway, the power players on Assail have been described as Tyrants - with a capital T - so again, not that surprising they would involve themselves.

As for wanting to 'die', Pran Chole specifically says that they wished to save their kin before greeting oblivion, so I doubt that's a big part of their motivation in heading to Assail.
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#50 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:29 PM

The first T'lan Imass on Assail probably got attacked by whatever is there, and then in their pride the remaining T'lan engaged the foe, and also died. As Cotillion says, it is just pride that they are fighting for there.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#51 User is offline   The Seguleh 46th 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:43 PM

View PostD, on 13 December 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

The first T'lan Imass on Assail probably got attacked by whatever is there, and then in their pride the remaining T'lan engaged the foe, and also died. As Cotillion says, it is just pride that they are fighting for there.



For the record, i think you are spot on. I'm just eager to find out why they felt the need to venture there in the first place. Something had to draw them there, as i doubt they were just riding the wind as dust and landed in a shitstorm. Pride is what is obviously keeping them there though, i definitely agree!
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#52 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:56 PM

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 09:43 PM, said:

View PostD, on 13 December 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

The first T'lan Imass on Assail probably got attacked by whatever is there, and then in their pride the remaining T'lan engaged the foe, and also died. As Cotillion says, it is just pride that they are fighting for there.



For the record, i think you are spot on. I'm just eager to find out why they felt the need to venture there in the first place. Something had to draw them there, as i doubt they were just riding the wind as dust and landed in a shitstorm. Pride is what is obviously keeping them there though, i definitely agree!


The Sormo passage I posted from DG above would support this theory. If Sormo is indeed referring to Assail, then it would make sense that T'lan Imass would be drawn to a Jaghut ritual being "born anew," either in an effort to get information on it, or undermine it. It doesn't necessarily mean that the threat they found there is Jaghut, as these Omtose Phellack rituals seem to gain a life of their own and don't require direct maintenance from a magic wielder over millenia.

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

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#53 User is offline   GingerBreadMan 

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 01:29 PM

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 13 December 2010 - 09:43 PM, said:

View PostD, on 13 December 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

The first T'lan Imass on Assail probably got attacked by whatever is there, and then in their pride the remaining T'lan engaged the foe, and also died. As Cotillion says, it is just pride that they are fighting for there.



For the record, i think you are spot on. I'm just eager to find out why they felt the need to venture there in the first place. Something had to draw them there, as i doubt they were just riding the wind as dust and landed in a shitstorm. Pride is what is obviously keeping them there though, i definitely agree!


I'd guess they went there because they heard the word Tyrant and were off like a dog chasing a squirrel...

Once they got there, they met whatever messed up shit the humans were doing(we do know they are human right?) and they stayed because they couldn't leave, plus a tyrant is a tyrant, Jaghut or not.

My personal theory involves the entire continent being full of ghosts, so even after the Imass kill someone, they have a ghost to deal with as well.

Imass are body without soul, Assail people are souls without bodies(but presumably material enough to cause damage)
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#54 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 01:22 PM

I dunno, the Lost boys are rather substantial, body-wise.
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#55 User is offline   GingerBreadMan 

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 01:29 AM

View PostMTS, on 06 January 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

I dunno, the Lost boys are rather substantial, body-wise.


Sure, but to have a supply of ghosts you need some living people as well.

And there is a quote from one of them after seeing Stoop(postmortem) about this being too much like home.
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#56 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 08:44 PM

Picking up on the threads various post about the continued war with death and Assail...

Whilst reading DoD some random thinking occured...

Hood betrayed the Jaghut in their war with death, guessing his taking the mantle... Anyway, if Jaghut continue to war on death in Assail and they reject Hood after his sneaky antics it would back up Assail been like Lether, the Hold of Death could be blocked or not even permitted hence all the ghosts...

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#57 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:48 PM

View Postchampooon, on 05 December 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

Hedge and Emroth in RG... Will add a bit before to set the scene...

A hint...

Quote

"I sense no power from you," Emroth said, head tilting a fraction. "Nothing. You are not even here."
Hedge smiled again, and slowly withdrew a cusser from beneath his raincape. He held it up between them. "Is this, Emorth?"
"I do not know what that is."
"Aye, but is it even here?"
"No. Like you it is an illusion."
"An illusion, or a manifestation of the will? My will?
"There is no value in the distinction," the T'lan Imass asserted.
"You cannot see the truth within me, for the vision you'd need to see it is not within you. You threw it away, at the Ritual. You wilfully blinded yourselves to the one thing that can destroy you. That is, perhaps, destroying your kind even now - some trouble on the continent of Assail, yes? I have vague recollections of somebody hearing something... well, never mind that. The point here, Emorth, is this: you cannot understand me because you cannot see me. Beyond, that is, what I have willed into existance - this body, this cusser, this face-"


But a hint to what..?





I was reading RG and this passage caught my eye. It seems that Hedge destroyed Emroth when she entered the Refugium, where Tellan fails. So that seems to be the recipe to destroly T'Lan Imass.
Pull them into a warren where Tellan does not apply (maybe time travel to a time before the Tellan ritual) and then when they become real as Emroth does, kill them.
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#58 User is offline   Drusas Achamian 

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 04:44 PM

Spoilers from 'The Crippled God'

Spoiler

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#59 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:09 AM

View PostMTS, on 13 December 2010 - 03:45 AM, said:

Wow, that's a great pick-up. It could be in reference to the Stormriders though. Can humans wield Omtose Phellack? Possible, I suppose, we've seen practitioners of other Elder warrens, like Kurald Galain and Kurald Liosan.


It's stated <somewhere> (I think Cynnigig said it, yes?) that Omtose Phellack isn't precisely a Jaghut warren, only that they favour it. But Jaghut are intruders there just like anyone else.

TCG spoiler
Spoiler


Yay for thread necromancy AND a pretty useless post.
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#60 User is offline   Azathmaster 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 11:34 PM

Quote

"The T'lann Imass before them was shorter, squatter than Tool. Three black-iron broadswords of unfamiliar style impaled this undead warrior's broad, massive chest, two of them driven in from behind, the other from the T'lan Imass's left. Broken ribs jutted through black, salt-rimed skin. The leather strapping of all three swords handles hung rotted, unravelled strips from the grips' wooden underplates. Wispy remnants of old sorcery flowed fitfully along the pitted blades."


It also says that the leather strapping was rotting, either suggesting that they were in the imass a long time ago (unlikely), or that they blade was used for a long time
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