[highfist Void]

Hello all,

I have limited internet access and limited time for said access, so i apolagize if this is a topic or thread that has been done before. The idea is pretty simple, and this thread is not intended for those on there first read through of the series and more specificly not for those who are reading GOTM for the first time. The idea: in numerous threads and sections of this message board dedicated to the further books of this series, one sees things and plot ideas listed as gardens of the moon -isms ( plot points and ideas that dont really work with the rest of the series). I am on my second read through of the books now currently re reading Deadhouse Gates. I thought it would be nice to collect all of the known and largely agreed apon gotmisms in one single thread. I have spotted some but i think this would be helpful and fun for those who are much more familar with the works of the malazan empire than myself. thanks.

MODGOD NOTICE OF THREAD MOVE: TO ALLOW BETTER OPEN DISCUSSION AND AVOID SPOILERS FOR NEW READERS, THREAD MOVED TO GENERAL BOOK DISCUSSION SUBFORUM.
IF O'POSTER PREFERS TO SEE IT ELSEWHERE LET ME KNOW.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 25 October 2010 - 05:44 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Well going on the most obvious ones:

Orfantal being female
Basically no one, not even Tayschrenn, knowing who Rake is
The pre-Ritual T'lann Imass being called T'lann instead of Imass
Brood and Rake seeming to not be on very good terms

And then there is Tool's special power which could be a Gotmism or not.

[Salt-Man Z]

Orfantal's gender can't really be considered a GotM anymore, since later editions (including all the US ones) have corrected it.
Tool's special ability gets briefly mentioned in MoI, and apparently has something to do with him being First Sword (from hints regarding TCG.)
Rake and Brood butt heads a little, but by the end of the book, it doesn't seem nearly as antagonistic as it first appears, and can easily be explained away.

To me, the only bonafide GotMs are:

• The aforementioned Tlan/Imass mixup: It's laid out clearly that the pre-ritual Tlan underwent the ritual of Imass to become the T'lan Imass. In all subsequent books, it's the pre-ritual Imass who underwent the ritual of Tellann.
  
• The "bone phone" which could maybe be explained away somehow, but makes two appearances here and is never seen again.

[Illuyankas]

Quick's cheesetastic line.

[worry]

I mentioned this somewhere else recently, but it becomes clearer on reread that plenty of the characters know who Rake is, as a myth. They simply don't realize that it is THE Anomander Rake of legend who is, in fact, the Lord of Moon's Spawn. Once the battle over Pale is concluded, however, plenty of characters start connecting the dots with Rake, Brood, and just who it is that's resisting the Empire on Genebackis. And this applies to Tays, Tattersail, and Baruk, whose surprise is misunderstood the most. As scholars, they know who Rake is, they just didn't expect him to be involved personally at all.

[D'iversify]

If I recall correctly, Dujek suggests landing Malzan reinforcements in spring 'in the west, at Tulips', when it is clear on the GOTM map that Tulips is in the (north) east of Genabackis. Interestingly, Tulips disappears from the MOI map...

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 23 October 2010 - 10:16 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

yes, that one is a true GotMism. i think SE might have actually addressed that one directly some time in the past

[highfist Void]

What about B. Skullcrusher? how i read it he is a mage, where future info from later books some what regard T.T.Toblaki as being somewhat a bane to magic in general. I have two theories it could be more of a personal warren developed around a creature of extreme power as we have seen with other characters in later books. Or from being so ancient maybe he developed his powers being of an ancient race that the currenet decendents we later see are descendents of. Or i misred it twice and he is not a mage at all but Nightchills proctector.

on the whole i think this is a good thread as it helps with some of the mind cramping due to the truely epic and emence scale of the story arc. There are so many important bits of information crammed in every book it helps when some info that conflicts and is widely agreed apon can save some of us a little brain cramping trying to make it all fit.

[Use Of Weapons]

I thought Bellurdan was a Thelomen, but not a Thelomen Toblakai. We know there are degenerate Thelomen of various origins (from interbreeding with the other races) scattered around the world. It's not inconceivable that they would latch onto warren magic as their own personal warrens waned in strength with the dissolution of their blood.

[highfist Void]

jitsukerr, on 25 October 2010 - 09:53 AM, said:

I thought Bellurdan was a Thelomen, but not a Thelomen Toblakai. We know there are degenerate Thelomen of various origins (from interbreeding with the other races) scattered around the world. It's not inconceivable that they would latch onto warren magic as their own personal warrens waned in strength with the dissolution of their blood.

good point, much like i resigned myself to believe. thanks.

[D'rek]

Bellurdan's exact racial make-up is unknown, but it is said that he and Nightchill came out of the ice fields in northern Quon Tali continent. This is also where there are Fenn (or used to be Fenn, since in HoC some soldiers say Fenn haven't been seen in centuries, which may or may not be true). On the other hand, they could've been there *because* of the Fenn and Bellurdan isn't actually from there originally.

Regardless, Thelomen (a general term for Thelomen Toblakai and their related races - Teblor, Tarthenal, Fenn, etc) can still be mages. The whole "warren unto themselves" thing is a one-time, off-hand comment with no elaboration, and even then Rath'Thurvian says nothing about that being more than a once-in-a-millenia occurance, so take it with a grain of blood oil...

and speaking of which, blood oil is the reason Karsa (and the Teblor in general) is the whole defying-magic thing. If Bellurdan is from Fenn or other Thelomen stock that hasn't been consuming it for generations, there's no reason to assume he'd be anti-magic at all.

jitsukerr, on 25 October 2010 - 09:53 AM, said:

I thought Bellurdan was a Thelomen, but not a Thelomen Toblakai. We know there are degenerate Thelomen of various origins (from interbreeding with the other races) scattered around the world. It's not inconceivable that they would latch onto warren magic as their own personal warrens waned in strength with the dissolution of their blood.

Ah, but Tool names one of the warrens in the Bellurdan-Tattersail conflagration as "Thelomen Toblakai" (or something similar), so it would appear that he has not given up his own racial/traditional Toblakai magic (of which we now about zero) - or you can consider Tool's statement another GotM.

---

Other GotMisms - WJ says he had like 12 or 15 soldiers in his squad the morning before the tunnels collapsed at Pale - these soldiers are never mentioned again in the many recaps of "the old squad" (then again Sorry almost never is either), nor do we ever see more marine squads with more than 8 or so soldiers.

- Tool labels the T'lan Imass marching into the Jhag Odhan to fight an enclave of Jhag/Jaghut right after the T'lan Imass massacre of Aren as the 28th Jaghut War (later revealed to be against Aramala and numerous Jhags), to which Lorn is surprised, expressing she had thought there were only 27 (evidence that they do go up by 1 each time). In the MoI prologue, Pannion's mother dying is called the end of the 33rd Jaghut War, and the Ritual of Tellann hasn't even taken place yet. This could be considered a GotMism. On the other hand, it's possible that the Kron and Logros armies keep separate counts of their wars.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 25 October 2010 - 07:44 PM

[Kurt Montandon]

Tool bursting out of the ground when coming to the Adjunct's rescue.

More like a zombie rising up than an undead of dust manifesting itself.

[Hetan]

Aranatha sighed. "Husband, Blood Sworn to Nightchill," she intoned, "child of Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai, Bellurdan Skullcrusher, I summon you."

That's as near as it gets.

[Ceda Cicero]

Just now on my first reread, after finishing my first full read through back in February or so. I thought there was no way I could muster up the focus, but MAN, it really flies through the second go-round, and I couldn't be happier that I'm doing it. I was a doubter, but consider my converted - rereads are where it's at.

There are a few other minor GotMisms I've been wondering about. I suppose they aren't outright inconsistencies just a few shifts in terminology.

1.) The word "warren(s)" is capitalized throughout. I don't think this is done in any other book.

2.) Knowledge of the 3 principal Tiste warrens seems pretty commonplace even among lesser mages in the later series. However, Tayschrenn and Tattersail, in their blundering discussions around High House Shadow (when Tay refers to it as "that bastard warren") in Part I has no mention of Emurlahn, even though the point of the discussion is trying to trace the birth of Shadow. Seems pretty far-fetched that Tay wouldn't know Shadow came from fractured Emurlahn.

3.) Rake is referred to once as the Mane of Chaos. Does this ever happen again?

4.) Kurald Galain is referred to as the Breath of Chaos. Does this ever happen again? Also how is that an appropriate name, considering Dark is later set up as anathema to Chaos?

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 15 November 2010 - 02:24 PM

[Abyss]

Good ones....

Ciceronian, on 15 November 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

...
2.) Knowledge of the 3 principal Tiste warrens seems pretty commonplace even among lesser mages in the later series. However, Tayschrenn and Tattersail, in their blundering discussions around High House Shadow (when Tay refers to it as "that bastard warren") in Part I has no mention of Emurlahn, even though the point of the discussion is trying to trace the birth of Shadow. Seems pretty far-fetched that Tay wouldn't know Shadow came from fractured Emurlahn. ...

You can somewhat write this off as a lot of people playing their knowledge close to the vest and not letting on just what they actually know. Tay in particular downplays the extent of his knowledge.

Quote

3.) Rake is referred to once as the Mane of Chaos. Does this ever happen again?

4.) Kurald Galain is referred to as the Breath of Chaos. Does this ever happen again? Also how is that an appropriate name, considering Dark is later set up as anathema to Chaos?

That's the only instance, but you can reason that Rake and his soletaken Andii being both draconic, thus aspected to chaos, and Andii, thus aspected to KG/Dark, would lead to various phrasings in various mythologies. It's confusing but when you consider just how far apart those two aspects are and that Rake and the others basically stand in both, it's not such a stretch.

- Abyss, chaotic lawful.

[ShadowRaven]

Ciceronian, on 15 November 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

4.) Kurald Galain is referred to as the Breath of Chaos. Does this ever happen again? Also how is that an appropriate name, considering Dark is later set up as anathema to Chaos?

I would say it's partially a GotMism but not completely. Although my explanation might not be very clear, I've always understood it this way: Starvarld Demelain is described as chaotic in nature even in later books, i.e. a somewhat ordered form of chaotic power. Other warrens originate from/are related to SD, KG probably quite a lot being an elder warren. So KG is also just an ordered form of chaos (more so than SD) but the imposition of that order is what makes it anathema to chaos.

[Ceda Cicero]

ShadowRaven, on 15 November 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

Ciceronian, on 15 November 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

4.) Kurald Galain is referred to as the Breath of Chaos. Does this ever happen again? Also how is that an appropriate name, considering Dark is later set up as anathema to Chaos?

I would say it's partially a GotMism but not completely. Although my explanation might not be very clear, I've always understood it this way: Starvarld Demelain is described as chaotic in nature even in later books, i.e. a somewhat ordered form of chaotic power. Other warrens originate from/are related to SD, KG probably quite a lot being an elder warren. So KG is also just an ordered form of chaos (more so than SD) but the imposition of that order is what makes it anathema to chaos.

Abyss and ShadowRaven, you both make valid points. I think the key here - and pretty much anywhere you're stacking GotM against the rest of the series - is to try and find reasonable explanations like the ones you guys just offered (that's part of the fun, right?) but also to be fine with - to a DEGREE - resigning yourself to some acceptable, nuanced differences. From what both of you guys have said, the Mane/Breath of Chaos references do make sense. I also think it's safe to say that to the extent that these terms were never, ever used again in any formal way, they were a GotMism.

In any case, man, so glad I came back to this one. I was one for whom it was a chore the first time around up until probably the last 1/4, and it honestly was almost two years of pick up/put down/pick up again before I made it through and then went on to blaze through the other 8 books. But now I'm just savoring every second of it. Laughed out loud last night when Dujek visits Fid and WJ on a rooftop, and Fid had just thrown his sword belt off.

Dujek: "Damnit, Fiddler, is that your sword lying over there? In a puddle?"

So very Fiddler. It kills me that for every minor inconsistency, Erikson does about a dozen amazingly consistent, brilliant things with his characters, and yet too many would prefer to dwell on the "flaws."

[WickanAssasin]

I have readup to dust of dreams multiple times including both ICE novels, and one that I have noticed is Paran's sword Chance being given to Cotillion at the end of GoTM. Was that just a reason for Paran to get Lorn's sword, or was there another significance that was just never used, cuz Cots seemed pretty stoked to get it.

[Salt-Man Z]

Well, Chance is a tool of Oponn's, so I'd imagine possessing it gives Cotillion some "sway" over Oponn that he otherwise might not have.

As for Warrens being capitalized in GotM: ICE also does it in NoK.

[D'rek]

WickanAssasin, on 16 November 2010 - 11:19 PM, said:

I have readup to dust of dreams multiple times including both ICE novels, and one that I have noticed is Paran's sword Chance being given to Cotillion at the end of GoTM. Was that just a reason for Paran to get Lorn's sword, or was there another significance that was just never used, cuz Cots seemed pretty stoked to get it.

There's no special significance other than one god receiving the tool of another god and presumably being able to do mean things with it. IMO, ST/Cot used it in tBH to find Oponn and subdue/eliminate them without the Twins seeing it coming.