[The Seguleh 46th]

Something i never noticed before but have now (at least i think so anyways?) is the sheer complexity of the relationship between Rhulad and Udinaas. Or rather, the Rhulad/Udinaas/Crippled God dynamic. Before, and on my first readthrough, i always thought it was simply the idea of mere friendship that binded the two, as well as kept Rhulad sane, but Rhulad always seems to use the term "we" when speaking to the slave. Anyways, to keep this short, most conversations seemed to hint on the "we" wanting to learn about Lether, and seemingly mortals in general. Obviously don't have enough to make this a ture theory, but i keep having the nagging feeling that The Crippled God is wanting to understand humans, and life in general on Wu, through Udinaas. Add in the fact that Rhulad has stated that TCG is merely guiding and not directly controlling makes it seem even the more plausible, and oddly compassionate. I understand that this is a major ploy/power play via TCG, but i wonder if a secondary purpose of this "immortal empire" gambit is to understand us better? I don't know, i've never been good at articulation, so hopefully one of you much smarter folks can come on and lend me a hand here. Or simply swat it away! Be gentle.....hehe

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 20 October 2010 - 09:05 PM

[Aptorian]

There may be more to Rhulad than meets the eye but I think that when he uses the term we he is simply using the royal we. Udinass was keeping Rhulad sane just refusing to be a groveling psychophant. It wasn't outright about a curiosty about humans but rather about having somebody who could be honest.

The Crippled God has had over a hundred thousand years to observe humanity. He knows very well what kind of creatures they are. As is observed more than once through his monologues. Like the one about human suffering.

[Red King]

Well, if I remember correctly from the whole Lethers experience was rather sadning because of how the magic of the sword was dricing Rhulad insane since it kept bringing him back. Their relationship was very complex in the fact that just having Udinaas around seemed to mellow him out and bring him back to the orld around him. I know theReapersGale gives you a rather HUGE insight into the Crippled God and his rather unpleasent exterior.

Spoiler

Its mainly the scene where he is talking to the Queen of Lethers, how shes all twisted and broken and she's screaming at him about how she wants her throne. The CG then tells her that he only looks the way the people portray him, as broken and sick. So, I feel he doesn't so much as want to understand us and find our real weaknesses and exploit them to the point where he can break and enslave people. If anything, he could have used the whole Udinaas/Rhulad relationship to see what the effects of bringing to people close together and then watching one abandon the other. To experience the extreme depression and the onset of maddness of feeling lost and left alone by someone you trusted so throughly. But, there as a few other reasons Udinaas disappeared that he couldn't help, but what can ya do.

Well, this is just my idea and I could just as easily be playing into to the authors hands and fall into their dasteradly trap!!!!! OH NOS!!!!!! Eh, what are ya gonna do?

-Ultor

[The Seguleh 46th]

Aptorian, on 20 October 2010 - 09:27 PM, said:

There may be more to Rhulad than meets the eye but I think that when he uses the term we he is simply using the royal we. Udinass was keeping Rhulad sane just refusing to be a groveling psychophant. It wasn't outright about a curiosty about humans but rather about having somebody who could be honest.

The Crippled God has had over a hundred thousand years to observe humanity. He knows very well what kind of creatures they are. As is observed more than once through his monologues. Like the one about human suffering.

I can buy this, kinda anyways. I realize he has had a very long time to observe us, but now he is getting the cahnce to interact with us, though it is only through one man's view. Yet, Udinaas being a slave, and for the most part not projecting complete dissolution with the world he has been living in, maybe it where the compassion comes in. And to First Sword Ultor, i se eyour points as well, and that scene in RG was very touching as well for me as a reader. I'm not thinking he (TCG)is trying to learn how to exploit/enslave us through Udinaas, rather just mere curiousity. Humans as hort-lived, war-like, and also capable of great acts of compassion and humility is worthy of education via a God?. Multiple hundreds of millenia of observation still don't mean TCG knows all that much, IMO.

That all said, i really do think Apt is probably correct, and i'm simply reading into it too much, and seeing something there for the simple fact of wanting to see it as such.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 20 October 2010 - 09:41 PM

[Aptorian]

If you want to use the classic image of the guy who has to make a choice between good and bad, you have Udinass whispering in one ear and the Crippled God laughing in the other one. A mortal and an immortal councillor, the problem is that Udinass was never in it to help Rhulad, he never really cared about him (not as far as I remember anyway) which meant that Rhulad was always going to be fucked because even the one he chose to invest his last shred of faith and trust in, chose to betray him in the end.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Aptorian, on 20 October 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:

If you want to use the classic image of the guy who has to make a choice between good and bad, you have Udinass whispering in one ear and the Crippled God laughing in the other one. A mortal and an immortal councillor, the problem is that Udinass was never in it to help Rhulad, he never really cared about him (not as far as I remember anyway) which meant that Rhulad was always going to be fucked because even the one he chose to invest his last shred of faith and trust in, chose to betray him in the end.

Hard to argue that, but then Udinaas didn't really have much of a choice in the end though, via the Wyval in his blood or soul (maybe both?). I think he did come to care about him, maybe more sympathetically than truly honest no-expectation friendship, but it was still there nonetheless. The conversation between Hull Beddict and Udinaas regarding reciprocity was the nail for me in a way. He never expected anything from Rhulad, and that is why it works (as well as him seeing the man and not the sword, like all the other Tiste Edur). I guess i don't know what i'm getting at really, just thinking the TCG is wanting to know more about us for reasons unknown, but not exactly for anything necessarily "bad". But i'm also of the theory that the TCG is not this all-encompassing malicious force, so maybe that skews my thinking process here? I imagine it does....

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 20 October 2010 - 09:53 PM

[The Seguleh 46th]

Getting a bit off topic here, but wanna sell the fact that this series is so damn good upon reread, I never would have thought what i have here with this post during my first read through, as the books ahead of this one has helped me form this idea of the Rhulad/Udinass/TCG thing. Nobody wants to "sympathize" with TCG as he is portrayed here, but getting to somewhat know him more in future books helps lend it credence, or at the least, plausibilty, IMO.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 20 October 2010 - 10:09 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The Seguleh 46th, on 20 October 2010 - 09:51 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 20 October 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:

If you want to use the classic image of the guy who has to make a choice between good and bad, you have Udinass whispering in one ear and the Crippled God laughing in the other one. A mortal and an immortal councillor, the problem is that Udinass was never in it to help Rhulad, he never really cared about him (not as far as I remember anyway) which meant that Rhulad was always going to be fucked because even the one he chose to invest his last shred of faith and trust in, chose to betray him in the end.

Hard to argue that, but then Udinaas didn't really have much of a choice in the end though, via the Wyval in his blood or soul (maybe both?). I think he did come to care about him, maybe more sympathetically than truly honest no-expectation friendship, but it was still there nonetheless. The conversation between Hull Beddict and Udinaas regarding reciprocity was the nail for me in a way. He never expected anything from Rhulad, and that is why it works (as well as him seeing the man and not the sword, like all the other Tiste Edur). I guess i don't know what i'm getting at really, just thinking the TCG is wanting to know more about us for reasons unknown, but not exactly for anything necessarily "bad". But i'm also of the theory that the TCG is not this all-encompassing malicious force, so maybe that skews my thinking process here? I imagine it does....

It's true that Udinaas didn't leave him on purpose and that he probably wouldn't have had if not for the Wyval but it's also true that Udinaas mentions a few timed how it was simply chance Rhulad bonded with him and that he was just using his "friendship" with Rhulad to have a slightly better life.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 21 October 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 20 October 2010 - 09:51 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 20 October 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:

If you want to use the classic image of the guy who has to make a choice between good and bad, you have Udinass whispering in one ear and the Crippled God laughing in the other one. A mortal and an immortal councillor, the problem is that Udinass was never in it to help Rhulad, he never really cared about him (not as far as I remember anyway) which meant that Rhulad was always going to be fucked because even the one he chose to invest his last shred of faith and trust in, chose to betray him in the end.

Hard to argue that, but then Udinaas didn't really have much of a choice in the end though, via the Wyval in his blood or soul (maybe both?). I think he did come to care about him, maybe more sympathetically than truly honest no-expectation friendship, but it was still there nonetheless. The conversation between Hull Beddict and Udinaas regarding reciprocity was the nail for me in a way. He never expected anything from Rhulad, and that is why it works (as well as him seeing the man and not the sword, like all the other Tiste Edur). I guess i don't know what i'm getting at really, just thinking the TCG is wanting to know more about us for reasons unknown, but not exactly for anything necessarily "bad". But i'm also of the theory that the TCG is not this all-encompassing malicious force, so maybe that skews my thinking process here? I imagine it does....

It's true that Udinaas didn't leave him on purpose and that he probably wouldn't have had if not for the Wyval but it's also true that Udinaas mentions a few timed how it was simply chance Rhulad bonded with him and that he was just using his "friendship" with Rhulad to have a slightly better life.

Yeah, imagine that is the case. I know i would if i was in Udinaas' shoes. Maybe i did read into this way too much. Still, some quite touching scenes for me regarding them two that was very rewarding this second time around!