[QuickTidal]

Look, I'll say it like this. My point is:

THE DARK KNIGHT didn't need to be marketed as BATMAN at all. And it is the most successful of the DC superhero flicks.

Heck, even MAN OF STEEL doesn't have SUPERMAN in the title.

Both films did splendidly well with comic book readers AND regular ass audiences.

No one needed the obscure character reference titles that they chose to be modified to make them appeal to the movie-going masses. No need to dumb it down.

BATMAN V SUPERMAN...is dumbing it down to childish levels.

Seriously, you could call the sequel to MAN OF STEEL... MAN OF TOMORROW or the like and as long as BATMAN shows up in the trailers, everyone will know what it's about. A movie title needn't reflect the EXACT nature of the movie or the story or the characters to be relevant/interesting.

Otherwise we'd have had IRON MAN & THOR & HULK & CAPTAIN AMERICA & BLACK WIDOW & HAWKEYE: AVENGERS OF THE EARTH as a title. Marvel isn't stupid when it comes to an ensemble piece. It's also kind of rankling for the Superman sequel to have BATMAN's name first.

[Silencer]

Illuyankas, on 22 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Worlds Finest is a title that'll probably appeal to the, what, 500,000 regular comic readers worldwide? As opposed to the literal millions and millions who like Batman and Superman without being invested in the history.

Besides, being targeted at comic readers isn't necessarily a sign of quality.

While I don't particularly think "World's Finest" is a good title, you have to agree that the title doesn't need to reference both Batman and Superman to draw audiences, nor does it need an extra subtitle on top of "Batman v Superman".

It's something which could have done without the extraneous text - I mean, "Man of Steel" is fairly self-explanatory, and it's not like radio presenters (as someone referenced upthread), aren't going to say "The new SUPERMAN movie, "insert catchy title here". As it stands, it's just long and boring. Very appropriate, but heck, it's not going to be hard to market this thing - I doubt anyone would be confused if it was JUST "Dawn of Justice" by the time the ad campaigns are through. *shrug*


ETA: Cross-post with QT.

[QuickTidal]

I think I'd have been perfectly happy with DAWN OF JUSTICE.

It's the Versus bit that really rankles.

[polishgenius]

Dawn of Justice would be okay, but it's a bit bland. It also implies that it's actually just going to be a Justice League origin film, so they should just call it that.


It really should have been World's Finest. Suggesting that would limit the audience is silly- you don't know what it's about from purely the title, sure, but as soon as you know it's a Batman and Superman movie (which is what advertising is for) it's gonna be obvious, and it fits.


This plus the Hobbit titling scheme has made me despair that Hollywood has any taste whatsoever when titling major adaptations.

[amphibian]

They never fight each other.

Except for that half awesome/half terrible Frank Miller old Batman story in which Kryptonite-suit Batman beats Superman within an inch of his life and then fakes his own death to get out from under imminent gov't invasion of Batman's fiefdom of Gotham.

It's half awesome because they do fight and some parts of the story work well. It's half terrible because... Frank Miller.

[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 21 May 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

A. If it's VERSUS...make is VS, not V. V makes it sound like court litigation.

BATMAN: Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, today I will tell you a story of how illegal immigration is destroying our country. This man [points to Supes in the defendant's chair] was sent across space illegally by an alien race to receive free care under our country's great healthcare and education system. This Kryptonian anchor baby did willfully dupe a salt-of-the-earth farmer [holds up Jonathan Kent's photo] to raise and care for him like his own son. And what repayment did Mr. Kent receive? The defendant knowingly left him to die in a tornado! Then, this man, who goes by no fewer than three identities - Superman, alias Clark Kent, alias Kal-el, who knows what else - did conspire with his fellow illegal aliens to cause massive property damage and loss of life to the towns of Smallville and Metropolis. He is a menace to society, and by the end of this trial, you will find him guilty!

[Aptorian]

amphibian, on 22 May 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

It's half awesome because they do fight and some parts of the story work well. It's half terrible because... Frank Miller.

But... Frank Miller!

[Illuyankas]

It's Frank Miller before 9/11 drove him completely batshit and before going full whoreswhoreswhores, and possibly the least bad Frank Miller, but it's still Frank Miller.

Besides, I like Batman and all, but Superman can literally compress him into a tennis ball sized sphere and throw him into the gaping void of space before the light from Superman's initial movement can reach Batman's retinas, let alone pass down his optic nerves and reach his brain to be deciphered into YOU DONE FUCKED UP NOW

[amphibian]

I haven't made an exhaustive study of this man's career, but I would argue that Miller was wackadoo long before 9/11. There's some seriously disturbing things going on in his old Batman stuff - the sociological talk, the bad geopolitics, the individual paranoia and so on. The Sin City comics feature an absurd amount of fetishization and some dog whistle/racist stuff as well.

The towers going down just provided an easy flashpoint for Miller's thoughts and beliefs to become public - without serious repercussion to his career and earning power.

[polishgenius]

Illuyankas, on 22 May 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

It's Frank Miller before 9/11 drove him completely batshit and before going full whoreswhoreswhores, and possibly the least bad Frank Miller, but it's still Frank Miller.

I actually quite like The Dark Knight Strikes Again (but then I like All-Star Batman & Robin too - it's fucking hilarious). I'd argue that he was already batshit when he wrote it though - I dunno how quick the turnover was on the issues but it was initially released two months after 9/11 so it could conceivably have been in his thoughts, but either way he was definitely on his way.


It's definitely not the least bad Frank Miller though, come on. his earlier Batman work was great, especially The Dark Knight Returns (I'm one of the few who's apparently not quite as fond of Year One- it's a touch bland, story-wise. I prefer Batman with a theatrical, feverish flavour and TDKR is one of those, like The Killing Joke or much of Grant Morrison's run, that dances on the edge of madness).

I'm told by a friend with very good taste that his work on Daredevil was also very good, although I haven't read it myself.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 22 May 2014 - 09:44 PM

[tiam]

As a non comic book fan/heathen id say Batman vs Superman will attract far more people than Dawn of Justice. Like the new Tom Cruise film is called Edge of Tomorrow or like the example of Jupiter Ascending used above. Meaningless fancy titles dont carry as much weight unless its part of a significant franchise. Like Quantum of Solace the second Bond film post reboot is a stupid title but references a file used in the title sequence of For Your Eyes Only or something like that. In any case it isnt a huge franchise. Batman vs Superman grabs the audience.

The Avengers argument above doesnt count as Marvel Phase 1 had 5+ $150 million films before a link movie came about, whereas DC seem to be rushing it. Every one knows this isnt Nolans Batman and when the trailers come out everyone will know its not the same Batman. But if you have hints that the two most well known superheroes will fight each other in the title it will put bums on seats. Worlds Finest, to me as a non-comic heathen, sounds like a buddy cop film.

Also they have to fight dont they? When Snyder first told us there was a crossover didnt he actually reference Millers Returns? Though to be honest you could say that the Avengers fight amongst themselves yet thats purely a contrived plot device.

[Morgoth]

Well, Zack Snyder is directing this thing, so it's safe to assume it will be entirely devoid of depth.

[QuickTidal]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 23 May 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

As a non comic book fan/heathen id say Batman vs Superman will attract far more people than Dawn of Justice. Like the new Tom Cruise film is called Edge of Tomorrow or like the example of Jupiter Ascending used above. Meaningless fancy titles dont carry as much weight unless its part of a significant franchise. Like Quantum of Solace the second Bond film post reboot is a stupid title but references a file used in the title sequence of For Your Eyes Only or something like that. In any case it isnt a huge franchise. Batman vs Superman grabs the audience.

The Avengers argument above doesnt count as Marvel Phase 1 had 5+ $150 million films before a link movie came about, whereas DC seem to be rushing it. Every one knows this isnt Nolans Batman and when the trailers come out everyone will know its not the same Batman. But if you have hints that the two most well known superheroes will fight each other in the title it will put bums on seats. Worlds Finest, to me as a non-comic heathen, sounds like a buddy cop film.

Also they have to fight dont they? When Snyder first told us there was a crossover didnt he actually reference Millers Returns? Though to be honest you could say that the Avengers fight amongst themselves yet thats purely a contrived plot device.

If you are only going to see a movie because the title appeals to you...

[tiam]

I would see it anyway. What im saying is that calling it Worlds Finest just so its canonical to keep comic book fans happy isnt relevant. Like Apt or someone said calling it World Finest will register with the half million comic book fans. whereas Batman vs Superman is a much better seat filler. You can say 'well if its only the title that appeals to you' all you want its the title of the film thats the films biggest promotional tool. These films are designed to make money and as I said the lure of the two biggest superheroes fighting is a draw.

[QuickTidal]

First official pic of Henry Cavill from BvS: DoJ

I like this, places Superman (who is already probably dealing with dark fallout from the events of the first film) on what is clearly a Gotham rooftop and all the grimness that entails.

The suit is SLIGHTLY different here from MoS: different cuff design, the shield is a TAD smaller, the belt-ish thingie is a tad different and the yellow is overall brighter (though not much). It also appears as if Cavill bulked up even more than he did for MoS.

EDIT: Oh, and I like his hair better like this too, much more Superman-y.

Anyways, I like.

 superman-henry-cavil.jpg (58.6K)
Number of downloads: 0

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 July 2014 - 03:56 PM

[amphibian]

One of the things that has consistently struck me as odd about superhero comics is that for a long, long time, the characters would wear these crazy awesome/terrible suits and we were expected that yes, in addition to their crime fighting, world saving skills, they also learned how to fabricate bullet resistant, lightweight, tear/fire proof, stretchy hyper-advanced materials and sew them perfectly for their own bodies.

Man of Steel side-stepped that entirely by having the magically advanced spaceship make Kal-El the suit. The Batman plotlines sort of side steps it by having Bruce assemble it from WayneCorp products.

It's only in the last 25 years that comics started moving towards the "regular clothes" or "not that advanced suits" idea.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 03 July 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

It's only in the last 25 years that comics started moving towards the "regular clothes" or "not that advanced suits" idea.

Indeed. I think it was somewhere around the first Raimi Spiderman flick where the main chorus became "How did a high school kid craft such a suit? Did he have his black belt in industrial sewing?" and things went from there with every movie superhero being challenged on how they made their suits. Iron Man makes his (obviously) with skill, Cap's was made for him, Thor's is magical....ect.

[amphibian]

I remember doing napkin calculations on how long it would take for a real life and human Batman to get as good at fighting, gymnastics, computer skills, biology, chemistry, mechanical engineering, lockpicking, construction techniques, business running and so on as he's shown to be as a 30 year old in the comics.

Basically, even if he slept 4 hours a day and worked as hard as any human ever has in all of these pursuits, he'd be in his early 60s by the time he got that good at most of them and his body would have broken down majorly multiple times, especially with the swinging between buildings (which is stupid).

[Primateus]

amphibian, on 03 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

I remember doing napkin calculations on how long it would take for a real life and human Batman to get as good at fighting, gymnastics, computer skills, biology, chemistry, mechanical engineering, lockpicking, construction techniques, business running and so on as he's shown to be as a 30 year old in the comics.

Basically, even if he slept 4 hours a day and worked as hard as any human ever has in all of these pursuits, he'd be in his early 60s by the time he got that good at most of them and his body would have broken down majorly multiple times, especially with the swinging between buildings (which is stupid).

Yeah, it just shows that Batman is every bit as unrealistic and unrelatable as Superman.

[Aptorian]

The skills of the superheroes are usually explained away by them having genious level intellect.

In the case of Batman, the logic is that he is so smart he intuitively understands all the subjects that he masters. Oh and apparently his childish thirst for vengeance makes him very focused.