[waylander001]

Okay so the ol' Rope gets a lot of face time in Bh compared to other books and seems to pick up a lot of knowledge throughout - one of the scenes which grabbed me most was the one with Panek (Apt's demon-boy with one eye) at the site of the first throne. Panek who see's Edgewalker as a friendly pal due to his time spent in the Shadow Realm leads Cotillion into knowledge:

Quote

Panek swung to face him. "I miss him," he said.
"Who?"
"Edgewalker"
"Why? I doubt that sack of bones could fight his way out of a birch-bark coffin"
"not to fight at our sides, Uncle. We will hold here - mother worries too much"
"Which mother?"
A hideous sharp-toothed smile. "Both"
"Why do you miss Edgewalker then?"
"For his stories"
"Oh, those"
"The dragons. The foolish ones, the wise ones, the living ones and the dead ones. If every world were but a place on the board then they would be the game pieces. Yet no single hand directs them. Each is wild, a will unto itself. And then there are the shadows - Edgewalker explained about those - the ones you cant see."
"He explained did he? Well, the hoary bastard likes you more than he does me"
"They all cast shadows, Uncle." Panek said "into your realm. Every one of them. That's why there is so many .... prisoners"
Cotillion frowned then, slowly, inexorably as comprehension dawned, the gods eyes widened"

Quote

So after this Trull Sengar - also guarding the first throne, comments that as the Rope walks away from the exchange it looks like he has just been kicked in the smalls. What are the implications of these Shadow Dragons? Is Cotillion just stunned by the knowledge that every Dragon projects a Shadow into their Realm?

or has the knowledge led to him realising something even more profound? It certainly seems this way. Is it maybe something specific to do with the three dragons chained at the stone - or just in general? Thoughts???

This post has been edited by waylander001: 29 September 2010 - 12:20 AM

[Defiance]

I'm on my reread of the series and I actually just read that part today. I'm not certain if we're ever given an explicit answer, but how I read it is:

If every dragon casts a shadow into the Shadow Realm, you could theoretically imprison that shadow and so imprison that dragon. I don't know, I could be way off, but that does seem to fit with the three dragons Cotillion talked to earlier in the book (Ampelas was one, I forget the name of the other two).

[Flincher14]

Yeah I don't know if it will be touched on for the final novel but it could be that a dragon could be enslaved by shadow or manipulated by shadow. Or a shadow dragon could be made from a regular dragons shadow. Its an interesting idea I can't wait to figure out more.

[Braden]

Remember that Cotillion isn't native to the Realm of Shadow, not is it in fact a true realm in itself. Short of it is that he's quite new to being a Demi-God…hasn't learned all the aspects of his own realm and perhaps even Gods can learn?



The knowledge might get used later by him or Shadowthrone, I don't know.

EDIT – Oh FUDGE! I just realised something which sheds more light on this. Hint – Remember how the Shadow Realm came about…where it came from and who were the children of that realm before it became the Shadow Realm.

This post has been edited by Braden: 29 September 2010 - 01:50 PM

[Tattersail_]

dragons will play a good part in the last book imo and we will find out. just have to wait and see won't we

[waylander001]

@ Defiance
Its a good theory at the very least, and yes Kalse, ampelas and one other I think. Was there a line once about part/most of the Menhir they are chained to being above ground or in a different realm or something?? or am I thinking about something else???

@ Tattersail

yes - Dragons are definitely at the heart of all things and TCG will (or should) show why. But we've been given so little on them over the 9 books that it is agonising not to know more at this stage - little things like this drive you crazy .... especially on re-reads, because then so much does actually make sense to you. But still you can be confounded by more!!

@ Braden.

Do you mean when we see the beginning of the Shadow Realm in one of the prologues? when Rake stops Osserc from destroying it??? And the children - do you mean Twilight, The Watch & Co. (the Shake)?

This post has been edited by waylander001: 29 September 2010 - 07:29 PM

[Defiance]

waylander001, on 29 September 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

@ Defiance
Its a good theory at the very least, and yes Kalse, ampelas and one other I think. Was there a line once about part/most of the Menhir they are chained to being above ground or in a different realm or something?? or am I thinking about something else???

Nope, I believe Edgewalker brings this up at some point, or he says something that makes Cotillion think about it.

[Braden]

waylander001, on 29 September 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

@ Braden.

Do you mean when we see the beginning of the Shadow Realm in one of the prologues? when Rake stops Osserc from destroying it??? And the children - do you mean Twilight, The Watch & Co. (the Shake)?

Personally I mean the "children of Mother Dark" to coin another hint. Meh, I may be completely wrong but there are several perfectly good "Dragons" who keep cropping up in the books who, to me, seem to fit the references perfectly (as in its a side reference to their particular personalities - a foolish one, a wise one etc etc). Add to that, that the phrase indicates they Cast a Shadow in the realm of shadow meaning, again to me, that they might be part of where shadow came from thus their substance is divided between the realms that came from Darkness?

This post has been edited by Braden: 30 September 2010 - 11:30 AM

[waylander001]

Quote

Personally I mean the "children of Mother Dark" to coin another hint. Meh, I may be completely wrong but there are several perfectly good "Dragons" who keep cropping up in the books who, to me, seem to fit the references perfectly (as in its a side reference to their particular personalities - a foolish one, a wise one etc etc). Add to that, that the phrase indicates they Cast a Shadow in the realm of shadow meaning, again to me, that they might be part of where shadow came from thus their substance is divided between the realms that came from Darkness?

Quote

Oh those children. Hmmm dunno, I think this particular exchange is definitely in reference to the pure children of Tiam, the ones with pure Draconian blood - True Dragons if you will, and not the ones who drank of her blood. Then again it's an interesting thought and the linkage is there thorughout the books as you say.

This post has been edited by waylander001: 30 September 2010 - 03:20 PM

[Hetan]

Well we have seen that Telorast and Curdle are chained within Emurlahn, neither of whom can escape into their eleint form for long before being dragged back into that realm again. All the ones we have seen so far were contenders for the Throne, hence their being chained there.

Eloth is mistress of Meanas (shadow as illusion) Ampelas is Emurlahn (elder shadow) Ampelas is unknown.

[Tattersail_]

Hetan, on 01 October 2010 - 07:29 AM, said:

Well we have seen that Telorast and Curdle are chained within Emurlahn, neither of whom can escape into their eleint form for long before being dragged back into that realm again. All the ones we have seen so far were contenders for the Throne, hence their being chained there.

Eloth is mistress of Meanas (shadow as illusion) Ampelas is Emurlahn (elder shadow) Ampelas is unknown.

but you know? or do you not know yet? I know you want tell but you do know... don't you?

edit. about Ampelas that is..

This post has been edited by Tattersail: 01 October 2010 - 07:52 AM

[Flawed]

See, I read this differently.

What makes the Ropes eye's widen is the fact that EVERYTHING casts a shadow. It isn't just about Dragons. There are many prisoners within that realm and only a few of them are Dragons. It is a suggestive sentence by the one eyed chap. But it isn't his point that it’s just the Dragons casting shadows.

So this could be vital knowledge to the Rope. The Rope being a semi expert on the ways of the Azath where him and ST minced around for years trying to discover their secrets. Now they could possibly have indirect links to all things and all realms in another way? If they can truly master shadow and see all shadows. Does this in turn give them direct link / power / knowledge on these things?

Is it Edgewalkers actual role to stop someone gaining true dominion over shadow because of this fact?

I agree that there will be multiple places within the final book for Dragons and such but the little hint that Panik gives to his uncle is something more profound then just the shadows cast by just Dragons.

[Siergiej]

And maybe it is only about the dragons? It's possible that I'm wrong, but don't Cotillion and Shadowthrone in Reaper's Gale

Spoiler

look for a way into Starvald Demelain?

Anything concerning dragons could be a good lead for them

[Sinisdar Toste]

i always thought that panek was referring to everything as well. the amount of dragon prisoners does not account for his "that's why there's so many prisoners" line. there's way more that aren't dragons.

consider edgewalkers assertion that in another world the three dragons are chained to inward facing menhirs and the trees are the right side up. the manifestation in shadow realm is given to the underworld. when this was brought up some time ago there was a theory that there were so many prisoners in shadow because they never moved, thus, their shadows were always in the same place and gained solidity in shadow realm, so much so that they are now corporeal. if you can move around freely, your shadow can't become permanent and gain solidity, but there are shadows flitting around untethered in maenas, who knows who they belong to?

basically, everything that casts a shadow has a presence in shadow realm, most being so ephemeral and transient that they never gain any substance, but some stay still and some do.

another possibility just occurred to me, that the shadows being cast into cotillion and ammanas' shadow realm come from the memory of emurlahn as it once was, and the prisoners are shadows of beings that were trapped in the memory of emurlahn being whole. there feels like there should be more to it but i can't think of it now. doesn't really make sense as i read it over but there it is.

[Hetan]

I also agree that everything casts shadows. Which makes me thing this how come we get Hounds of Shadow from the Deragoth..
Something to do with the statues in the Nascent etc..

This is not a fully forumlated idea and I'm only on my first cup of coffee but I'm also thinking of Apsalar's travels through the Shadow Realm in Bonehunters where she see's the real world as a world of shadow and things that are not there in the real world are there in the shadow realm.

[Gathras]

I also think that the thing Cotillion realized is more complicated than that, but on my last reread the first thing that came to my mind in that scene was that Cotillion realized that Telorast and Curdle are dragons and therefore was stunned because he did not give it much thought when Apsalar freed them ...I guess I was simply making a way too quick connection, but I thought it could not hurt to throw it into the fray

[waylander001]

Yeah i'm definitely now convinced the "they" that panek refers to is everyone and quite possibly everything - not just the Dragons. Another good point is Hetans, we are actually told they are those of the Deragoth - hence the chasing and all that so it also ties in well with the assertion that not just Dragons are being referred to by Panek.

That is a bit of kick in the smalls for Cottilion then, if he's only just now realised that - no wonder he was flabbergasted.... the impications are enormous.

[Silk]

i.e a shadow attack on the shadow version of TCG ... hmmmmmm .... darn trooting the implications are enormous... he who rules shadow owns your shadows and nowhere is safe

[Use Of Weapons]

What if Dragnipur casts a shadow? Or can only conscious entities cast shadows? Is the warren of shadow itself a shadow? Mockra is an entity -- can it cast a shadow?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

jitsukerr, on 04 October 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

What if Dragnipur casts a shadow? Or can only conscious entities cast shadows? Is the warren of shadow itself a shadow? Mockra is an entity -- can it cast a shadow?

Do you mean the Warren of Dragnipur? Or the sword itself? Because since Rake always carries Dragnipur with him and is moving around I would think the shadow would be much too impermanent to cast anything into shadow realm. If the Warren cast a shadow though, that could be interesting.