[ShadowRaven]

The way I understood it was that he was mostly just boasting, but Kallor could have been talking about the Imass after the ritual, because it could constitute a rebirth of sorts, and thus he might consider them children (he might not even know that they have once been something else than undead, but this is debatable). This would also make sense because weren't normal humans already around when the Imass performed the ritual?

Or there's always the option that after the Imass had found all the Jaghut they could they might have been inactive for long periods of time (didn't Tool state in GotM that Kellanved taking the first throne reawakened them?). If that is the case then Kallor might not even know how old they were as a race, or why they didn't interfere with his empire. One other thing is that we don't know how old Kallor was when he formed his empire, he could well have lived for hundreds of years via alchemy at that point already.

[Abyss]

As of MoI we do know that there was a K'chain civilization, multiple Jaghut tyrant empires, the Imass First Empire, the Kallorian Empire and the human First Empire on 7C under Dessimbelackis. We don't know the order exactly and the concept is a little shaky - what the Imass considered their First Empire was a loose collection of tribes and clans spread out over an unknown time and space and undead for part of that. And just for good measure the Thelomen are in there somewhere. All we can confirm is that Dessimbalackis' First Empire on 7C was the last human Empire pre-Malazan, that the Imass First Empire was still around in undead form at the same time, and that the K'chain empire, or at least the last of them, was gone by the time of the Kallorian empire on Jacuruku.

All of which is to say Kallor is human.

[Weave]

Indeed Abyss, just found this as well:

Quote

"...on Jacuruku, in the shadow of long-dead K'Chain Che'Malle ruins, another empire had emerged. Brutal, a devourer of souls, its ruler was a warrior without equal...twelve million slaves – even the Jaghut Tyrants had not commanded such heartless mastery over their subjects. No, it took a mortal human to achieve this level of tyranny over his kin." - (MoI, UK BP paperback, p.36 )

And that's K'rul speaking. I'd say he'd reliably know.

Thinking back to the quote that caused my confusion when the "T'lan Imass were but Children" ... the T'lan Imass are of course, undead Imass. So it would be consistent to say time-line wise
there's Mortal Imass> humans are nurtured> Kallor exits> the ritual happens> and Kallor is around in the infancy of the T'lan Imass.... That would work.

Except just as I'm writing that, I realise:

Quote

119,736 years before Burn's Sleep (three years after the Fall of the Crippled God)

Is when Kallors Empire fell. only 120,000 years ago, the The Ritual of Tellan that created the T'lan Imass happened 300,000 years ago... well over half their current age (so not child stage of their life).

I think it's probably just an inconsistency on SE's part, a lie from Kallor (fairly pointless one) or there's yet more to the High King to be revealed.

This post has been edited by Weave: 16 September 2010 - 04:06 PM

[anothevilbadguy]

Abyss, on 16 September 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

All we can confirm is that Dessimbalackis' First Empire on 7C was the last human Empire pre-Malazan,

How do we know this?

MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK SPOILERS DELETED.

Or do you just mean on 7C? But even there pre-malazan 7C was unified in a manner, even if they liked all the infighting etc.

The Malazan Empire is 'just' another empire. Although, it is notable due to its size, multiple continents, quick expansion, interaction with gods/ascendants, having an Imass army and, most importantly, being central to the series.

On Kallor, is it not mentioned a few times that he is certainly human, i.e. by gods and himself. He is supposed to be a personification of humanity, or he says he is. His power does seem to have some links to KC, as Jacaraku does seem to have close links to them.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 16 September 2010 - 04:19 PM
Reason for edit: MT, TB, OTHER BOOKS SPOILERS EXCISED

[Abyss]

anothevilbadguy, on 16 September 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

...Or do you just mean on 7C? But even there pre-malazan 7C was unified in a manner, even if they liked all the infighting etc.

The Malazan Empire is 'just' another empire. Although, it is notable due to its size, multiple continents, quick expansion, interaction with gods/ascendants, having an Imass army and, most importantly, being central to the series.

On Kallor, is it not mentioned a few times that he is certainly human, i.e. by gods and himself. He is supposed to be a personification of humanity, or he says he is. His power does seem to have some links to KC, as Jacaraku does seem to have close links to them.

I mean that based on comments in DG, Dessimbelackis' human First Empire started on 7C. And sorry but i deleted the other stuff you ref'd as it was entirely drawn from later books.

Pre-Malazan (post First Empire) 7C was a continent of tribes, clans, groups and cults mostly concerned with killing each other. So not exactly unified. There were definitely city states, specifically the titular Seven Cities, but no suggestion of alliance between them.

The Malazan Empire is different from those that came before, albeit in subtle ways that probably don't matter in the grand scheme. Rake and Brood make this point in MoI when they discuss why they were fighting the Malazans in the first place.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Weave, on 16 September 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

I'm confused. Kallor seems human. But if he was, I feel certain an Empire of his brutality (EG ffs) then if current, the Imass would surely of given him some attention, so to speak. (or was this continent seperation?)

Edited to emphasise my own retardeness.

I presume that at Kallor 's time there were still enough Jaghut to keep the T'lann Imass interested and they didn't need to satiate their bloodlust by killing tyrants of other races.

And yeah, I also think that kallor was just boasting with the T'lann Imass thing.

[Abyss]

It took the First Empire ritualizing itself into a bunch of crazed shapeshfters to get the Imass involved. I suspect that otherwise they just ignored human silliness unless directly threatened or offended. The point is made in MoI more than once that they are only there for their Gathering and subsequently only because they realize the Pannion is a Jaghut.

[Weave]

Aye two points dismissing mine well made. Well played chaps!

I'm now going to dismiss my own above conclusion that Kallor is Human after all, again. Actually I'm not, Steven Erikson is:

Quote

Q:Two questions about Kallor:What is he? As in race and source of sorcerous ability.

How was he able to destroy his Kingdom? Does he have that much power, or did he access something/someone else's power.

A:

Kallor's origin and the source of his power is never specified, because it is something that has to wait for the appropriate moment.

Ok so that LINK doesn't say he's specifically not human, but it does say SE has deliberately not revealed Kallor to his fullest extent yet.

I guess it's RAFO, as always. Thanks Abyss and all for your contributions!

This post has been edited by Weave: 16 September 2010 - 05:33 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I'm still convinced Kallor is human, the line about the T'lan Imass was just hyperbole to emphasize that he's ollllld.


Since we've been talking about Kallor's nuking of Jacuruku here though, I have a question. Did he really kill everyone on the continent? I know he burned it and the land was dead until K'rul took the suffering into himself, but was everyone dead already? I always figured they were, but then there is a discrepancy in the prologue of MoI. K'rul mentions that Kallor has enslaved 12 million. Then, a a page later, Kallor curses the EG's on the power of 7 million sacrifices. I would have no problem chalking this up to an inconsistency in numbers if the two quotes weren't so close together. But since they are? This means that a large number of survivors remained on Jacuruku (or fled the continent directly before or after the genoicde), or perhaps he took the 5 million deaths into himself? As K'rul is describing Kallor he calls him 'brutal, a devourer of souls'. Is this the source of Kallor's power? he has 5 million plus souls trapped and chained within him?
HoC spoiler:

Spoiler

Like Karsa on steroids?

I mean the power surrounding Kallor has always been vague, could it be something as simple as this?


Edit: typo

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 16 September 2010 - 09:46 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

I've always read the "devourer of souls" as just another way of saying he devoured so many in order to power his curse on the three elder gods. It's interesting though.

Spoiler for later books I think:

Spoiler

Perhaps they belonged to Ardata's portion of the Kallorian Empire?

This post has been edited by H.D.: 16 September 2010 - 09:41 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

H.D., on 16 September 2010 - 09:39 PM, said:

I've always read the "devourer of souls" as just another way of saying he devoured so many in order to power his curse on the three elder gods. It's interesting though.

Spoiler for later books I think:

Spoiler

Perhaps they belonged to Ardata's portion of the Kallorian Empire?

He does mention that Ardatha has fled in the prologue while talking to the EG's

Spoiler

I think 5 million is a lot of people for her to have been able to pull out of there though. Either through warren or ship. Also, from the very, very little information we have on her, does she seem like she would save people?

[HoosierDaddy]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 16 September 2010 - 09:46 PM, said:

H.D., on 16 September 2010 - 09:39 PM, said:

I've always read the "devourer of souls" as just another way of saying he devoured so many in order to power his curse on the three elder gods. It's interesting though.

Spoiler for later books I think:

Spoiler

Perhaps they belonged to Ardata's portion of the Kallorian Empire?

He does mention that Ardatha has fled in the prologue while talking to the EG's

Spoiler

I think 5 million is a lot of people for her to have been able to pull out of there though. Either through warren or ship. Also, from the very, very little information we have on her, does she seem like she would save people?

Spoiler

My point being that it was a vassal state, I think, which she ruled. Not all of them necessarily needed to be from there, there could have been other vassal states, and he just nuked the main empire. The phrasing that she "fled" is strange, her being an Elder God herself, but perhaps she had a better idea what was in store for her than the other three did.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Certainly possible, but it seems like Kallor only conquered Jacuruku from coast to coast and Ardartha was on it.

From the prologue:

Quote

Fifty years, dear rivals, to conquer an entire continent. Oh, perhaps Ardatha still held out - always late in sending me my rightful tribute - but I ignored such petty gestures. She has fled, did you know? The bitch.

Could be a vassal state on another land, but sounds unlikely.

[HoosierDaddy]

See, that reads to me as exactly as I have explained it. A client-state that he felt it would be more prudent to simply let Ardata rule and receive tribute from, than trying to conquer. Odds of it being the 5 million number that is missing are low, but Kallor is not exactly humble and those numbers are unreliable.

[Illuyankas]

Really late series spoilers:

Spoiler

There was a Second Gathering, you know, that may have occurred while Kallor was making his empire. Hell, his force might have been one of the groups that were helping to wipe out the mortal Imass beforehand.

[ShadowRaven]

There is still a gap of a few million, but what if Kallor had every one of his subjects fight to the death in pairs? Such inhuman suffering would certainly generate a lot of power. I somehow see a scene in my mind of Kallor issuing a command that only those who slay their opponent will get to live and then millions desperately fighting their friends, family, etc, it would certainly correspond with his sense of "humour".

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

To the last couple posts.

HD: Kallor may not be humble, be K'rul was the one who said 12 million. Kallor was the one who said he sacrificed 7 million to power the curses. I would think he would know how many people he just killed, and wouldn't sell himself short.

and ShadowRaven: there is evidence that he used some sort of machine to accomplish the deaths, considering the Elder Gods noticed the continent was torched and the land itself was dead and charred.

[The Seguleh 46th]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 17 September 2010 - 12:34 AM, said:

To the last couple posts.

HD: Kallor may not be humble, be K'rul was the one who said 12 million. Kallor was the one who said he sacrificed 7 million to power the curses. I would think he would know how many people he just killed, and wouldn't sell himself short.

and ShadowRaven: there is evidence that he used some sort of machine to accomplish the deaths, considering the Elder Gods noticed the continent was torched and the land itself was dead and charred.

I love the mere fact that the series has inconsistencies. Especially when each character sees things and expresses opinions in different ways and/or recollections.

Anyway, my two cents is Kallor is human. A very shrewd, highly intelligent, and resourceful human, despite how much readers love to hate him. I like whoever said somewhere in this thread that Kallor might be representative of humanity, albeit the darker side of our nature (at least i think someone said that...).

Spoiler

Honestly surprised he hasn't made a play for the House of War, as he seems almost ideal to a tee as leader of at least one of the warring Houses (wasn't sure how to postulate that, since the waters are murky indeed regarding the Lords of War via Treach, Togg, Fandy, the desposed Fener, etc., and my thinking that such a House hasn't been sanctioned as of yet)

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 17 September 2010 - 01:21 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

well it's entirely possible that k'rul was being literal, calling kallor a devourer of souls. there's really no way to tell, all we have is that missing 5 mil. maybe the 5 mil. were killed to build kallors mountain of bones and his bone throne that the elder gods find him upon. thats the kind of thing he'd like i thnk

[Weave]

I've just reread the prologue, and I actually think the "discrepency" is a whole lot simpler to explain. Kallor has just raised the continent and the 12 million there in, but the 7 million, is the actual amount of bones he sits/his throne resides on/in. It's from these 7 million that he draws the power to curse the three elder Gods. The 7 million was likely the major bastion of The Kallorian Empire, with the remaining 5 million being in all the out lying territories.
Seems a bit of a stretch the more I try to rationalise now I've come to type it out actually....
Perhaps the 7 million sacrifoces were that? Willing sacrifices who gave their lives to grant Kallor the power required to Curse three EG, and he 'only' had to kill 5 million?