[Quick Bill]

Ok, this occurs in MOI mid 800's in the UK paper back addition. I can get more specific details on the placement when I get home, but I had to get this out there. I is likely discussed somewhere else, but at least here is a good place to discuss the motivations of the Empire that are revealed in MOI.

While heading for Coral, following the division of Brood's and One Arm's forces, WhiskeyJack is discussing sending away Paran, Quick Ben and the Bridgburners. During that conversation some underlying motivations of the Malazan Empire, as well as some of the truths surrounding the "betrayal at Pale" are revealed. I would like to get others views on these. Then perhaps we can move to another forum and discuss how this plays out up to the current time. I am doing a re-read now and my main goal is to glean everything I can about the motivations of the Empire. This is a rather long passage, but extremely important in my view. I am really interested in knowing what you think of the bold portion of the quote. It hints at plans beyond the Crippled God, beyond the timeline associated with any mortal empire. Also, what move

'A word on Paran. With the loss of Tatter—of Silverfox, I mean, the captain's value to us can't be overestimated. No, not just us. The Empire itself. Quick Ben's been adamant on this. Paran is the Master of the Deck. Within him is the power to reshape the world, High Fist.' He paused, mulling on his own words. 'Now, maybe
there's no chance of Laseen ever regaining the man's favour, but at the very least she'd be wise to avoid making the relationship worse.'
Dujek's brows lifted. 'I'll so advise her the next time I see her.'
'All right. Sorry. No doubt the Empress is cognizant—'
'No doubt. As I was saying, however, it's the loss of Quick Ben that stings the most. From my own point of view, that is.'
'Well, sir, what the wizard has in mind… uh, I agree with him that the less Brood and company know of it the better. So long as the division of forces proceeds as
planned, they'll have no reason but to believe that Quick Ben marches in step with the rest of us.'
'The wizard's madness—'
'High Fist, the wizard's madness has saved our skins more than once. Not just mine and the Bridgeburners', but yours as well—'
'I am well aware of that, Whiskeyjack. Forgive an old man his fears, please. It was Brood and Rake and the Tiste Andü—and the damned Elder Gods, as well—who were supposed to step into the Crippled God's path. They're the ones with countless warrens and frightening levels of potency—not us, not one mortal squad wizard and a young nobleborn captain who's already died once. Even if they don't mess things up, look at the enemies we'll acquire.'
'Assuming our present allies are so short-sighted as to fail to comprehend.'
'Whiskeyjack, we're the Malazans, remember? Nothing we do is ever supposed to reveal a hint of our long-term plans—mortal empires aren't supposed to think that
far ahead. And we're damned good at following that principle, you and I. Hood take me, Laseen inverted the command structure for a reason, you know.'
'So the right people would be there at ground level when Shadowthrone and Cotillion made their move, aye.'
'Not just them, Whiskeyjack.'
'This should be made known to Quick Ben—to all of the Bridgeburners, in fact.'
'No. In any case, don't you think your wizard's figured things out yet?'
'If so, then why did he send Kalam after the Empress?'
'Because Kalam needs to be convinced in person, that's why. Face to face with the Empress. Quick Ben knew that.'
'Then I must be the only thick-witted one in this entire imperial game,' Whiskeyjack sighed.
'Maybe the only truly honourable one, at any rate. Look, we knew the Crippled God was getting ready to make a move. We knew the gods would make a mess of things.
Granted, we didn't anticipate the Elder Gods getting involved, but that's neither here nor there, is it? The point was, we knew trouble was coming. From more than
one direction—but how could we have guessed that what was going on in the Pannion Domin was in any way related to the efforts of the Crippled God?
'Even so, I don't think it was entirely chance that it was a couple of Bridgeburners who bumped into that agent of the Chained One—that sickly artisan from
Darujhistan; nor that Quick Ben was there to confirm the arrival of the House of Chains. Laseen has always understood the value of tactical placement yielding
results—Hood knows, she taught that to the Emperor, not the other way round. The Crippled God's pocket-warren wanders—it always has. That it wandered to the
hills between Pale and Darujhistan was an opportunity the Crippled God could not pass up—if he was going to do anything, he had to act. And we caught him. Maybe
not in a way we'd anticipated, but we caught him.'
'Well enough,' Whiskeyjack muttered.
'As for Paran, there's a certain logic there, as well. Tayschrenn was grooming Tattersail to the role of Mistress of the Deck, after all. And when that went wrong,
well, there was a residual effect—straight to the man closest to her at the time. Not physically, but certainly spiritually. In all this, Whiskeyjack—if we look on things
in retrospect—the only truly thick-witted player was Bellurdan Skullcrusher. We'll never know what happened between him and Tattersail on that plain, but by the
Abyss it ranks as one of the worst foul-ups in imperial history. That the role of Master of the Deck fell to a Malazan and not to some Gadrobi herder who'd
happened to be nearby, well, Oponn's luck played into our hands there, and that's about all we can say of that, I think.'
'Now I'm the one who's worried,' Whiskeyjack said. 'We've been too clever by far, leaving me wondering who's manipulating whom. We're playing shadowgames
with the Lord of Shadow, rattling the chains of the Crippled God, and now buying Brood more time without him even knowing it, whilst at the same time defying the
T'lan Imass, or at least intending to…'
'Opportunity, Whiskeyjack. Hesitation is fatal. When you find yourself in the middle of a wide, raging river, there's only one direction to swim in. It's up to us to
keep Laseen's head above water—and through her, the Malazan Empire. If Brood swings his hammer in Burn's name—we drown, all of us. Law, order,
peace—civilization, all gone.'
'So, to keep Brood from doing that, we sacrifice ourselves by challenging the Crippled God. Us, one damned weary army already decimated by one of Laseen's
panics.'
'Best forgive her her panics, Whiskeyjack. Shows she's mortal, after all.'
'Virtually wiping out the Bridgeburners at Pale—'
'Was an accident and while you didn't know it at the time, you know it now.
Tayschrenn ordered them to remain in the tunnels because he thought it was the safest place. The safest.'
'Seemed more like someone wanted us to be a collateral fatality,' Whiskeyjack said.
No, not us. Me. Damn you, Dujek, you lead me to suspect you knew more of that
than I'd hoped. Beru fend, I hope I'm wrong… 'And with what happened at
Darujhistan—'
'What happened at Darujhistan was a mess. Miscommunication on all sides. It was too soon after the Siege of Pale—too soon for all of us.'
'So I wasn't the only one rattled, then.'
'At Pale? No. Hood take us, we all were. That battle didn't go as planned. Tayschrenn really believed he could take down Moon's Spawn—and force Rake
into the open. And had he not been left virtually on his own in the attack, things might well have turned out differently. From what I learned later, Tayschrenn didn't
know at the time who Nightchill really was, but he knew she was closing in on Rake's sword. Her and Bellurdan, who she was using to do her research for her. It
looked like a play for power, a private one, and Laseen wasn't prepared to permit that. And even then, Tayschrenn only hit her when she took out A'Karonys—the
very High Mage who came to Tayschrenn with his suspicions about her. When I said Bellurdan killing Tattersail was the worst foul-up in Malazan history, that day
at Pale runs a close second.'

So it was Nightchill that ultimately led to the destruction of the High Mages at the siege of Pale. Interesting.

Well I welcome thoughts, elaborations, mad rants and wacked out theories on this.

[TheSurvivor]

Well speaking on the indicated bold writing;

Spoiler

I always figured it was in reference to the Malazan Empire attempting to capture and occupy Black Coral which we learn was the intention at the end by Rake said no in not so few of words.

Course the statement could be refering to the empire in general, Laseen's always got some plan going that leads to the greater good of the empire.

[Quick Bill]

 TheSurvivor, on 30 August 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

Well speaking on the indicated bold writing;

Spoiler

I always figured it was in reference to the Malazan Empire attempting to capture and occupy Black Coral which we learn was the intention at the end by Rake said no in not so few of words.

Course the statement could be refering to the empire in general, Laseen's always got some plan going that leads to the greater good of the empire.

But that doesn't seem to fit with the claim that mortal Empires are not supposed to think that far ahead. It appears the Empire has long term plans, perhaps involving some sort of inversion of power between mortals and ascendants, or at least bringing down the entire lot of meddlers. Putting mortals in charge. This would explain why the Empire is not aspected and does not favour cults. It also thickens the plot when you consider what Shadowthrone and Cotillion are up to. They learnt a lot about the Azath, and perhaps they ascended in order to be the guys on the inside as it were.

[T'renn]

I interprete the goal of Kellanved and his successors as following; To gain power, to hoard as much as possible.

As for the Empire ? The goals of the empire are based on the ethics of those who founded it and the result of their ambitions:
-Create an empire, possibly spanning the world in the end.
-Create a society with laws that are limited in their measure of opression. (For example the abolishment of slavery on Kartool and the discontinuation of the use of torture in the Dal Hon society)
-Create a country without senseless bloodshed in the name of the powerstruggles between gods and ascendants.(I.e. no patrons)

[Quick Bill]

 Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 30 August 2010 - 06:28 PM, said:

I interprete the goal of Kellanved and his successors as following; To gain power, to hoard as much as possible.

As for the Empire ? The goals of the empire are based on the ethics of those who founded it and the result of their ambitions:
-Create an empire, possibly spanning the world in the end.
-Create a society with laws that are limited in their measure of opression. (For example the abolishment of slavery on Kartool and the discontinuation of the use of torture in the Dal Hon society)
-Create a country without senseless bloodshed in the name of the powerstruggles between gods and ascendants.(I.e. no patrons)

But what do you make of the thinking long term. One arm states that "mortal empires aren't supposed to think that far ahead" I find it hard to believe that they are referring only to creating an ordered society. In fact, I am more interested in the tactics that the Empire would have to use in order to achieve this goal. Perhaps in the Crippled God we will get to see the full extent of the Empires plans, or perhaps their plans were thrown to the wind by all the craziness that has occurred?

Spoiler

Is it impossible that the Bonehunters are not as outlawed as they seem. Although, I don't think Erikson would use that trick twice.

This post has been edited by Quick Bill: 30 August 2010 - 06:48 PM

[worry]

This isn't a criticism, I'm just saying: If you want a discussion that spans the entire series, even if your quotes are from MOI, you should start that thread in DoD or General forums and not MOI. Know what I mean? The source of the quote doesn't necessarily define where you start the thread, as it seems you wanna talk about a whole lot more than the first three books.

[Tattersail_]

yeah, blow it wide open, move it to DoD and then it can expand a lot

[Braden]

I agree also, if this is moved I can comment fully.



The “mortal” considerations of an Empire are to ensure its continuation by expansion, economic growth, establishment of its own laws and precepts on other civilisations around it by many means…which bleeds into the “immortal” consideration of an Empire, which in this case, would be a significant set of spoilers I’m sure.

[Quick Bill]

Ok, thanks for the suggestion. I am new to this forum and welcome all criticism and advice. I will move it over to the DoD section.

Is there a way to move this whole thread over to DoD? Or should I just start it over from the beginning?

Cheers,
Quick Bill

This post has been edited by Quick Bill: 31 August 2010 - 11:45 AM

[D'rek]

The answer is right in the passage - the empire foresaw the CG making a play to corrupt the world, and they were also well aware of the consequences of Brood swinging his hammer. So, the Empire set up a false outlwary for Onearm's Host so they could go invade the Pannion Domin, set back the CG and his warren-poisoning and therefore Brood would never feel the need to pound his hammer and obliterate the entire Malazan Empire.

Those are the long-term consequences. They pretend to be working only under the "short-term" consequences of the Domin being an evil but supposedly mortal nation and them actually being outlawed whilst wanting to fight the Domin for purely mortal and secular reasons.

[Braden]

I also consider Laseen's fore-knowledge that the Empires previous leadership are likely to be making a play at reclaiming it.

[HoosierDaddy]

I actually think the part about Shadowthrone and Cotillion is about their move with Sorry.

Also, the correct answer is "Shenanigans."

[Quick Bill]

Does anyone know if I can move this entire thread over to DoD so we can broaden it out?

[champ]

 Quick Bill, on 01 September 2010 - 11:44 AM, said:

Does anyone know if I can move this entire thread over to DoD so we can broaden it out?

er, it has been? =D

[Tattersail_]

this suggests that the empire have foreseen far beyond the pannion domin and what is going to happen. it makes me wonder if Laseen and Tavore planned the invasion of lether, or at least the seperation from the empire itself, she didn't want mallick rel having command of the bonehunters. I think there are protagonists within the series that know all of what is going on, Quick Ben being one, Tavore being another, even Whiskeyjack. Are they looking past the crippled god? did Laseen plan everything with Kellanved and Dancer before they became Ammanas and Cotillion?

This passage doesn't just suggest what happens in MOI in my opinion, as looking back now it seems SE gave us a lot of tidbits of what is to come without knowing it at the time

[Quick Bill]

 champooon, on 01 September 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:

 Quick Bill, on 01 September 2010 - 11:44 AM, said:

Does anyone know if I can move this entire thread over to DoD so we can broaden it out?

er, it has been? =D

hahaha, I'm retarded.

[Quick Bill]

 Tattersail, on 01 September 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

this suggests that the empire have foreseen far beyond the pannion domin and what is going to happen. it makes me wonder if Laseen and Tavore planned the invasion of lether, or at least the seperation from the empire itself, she didn't want mallick rel having command of the bonehunters. I think there are protagonists within the series that know all of what is going on, Quick Ben being one, Tavore being another, even Whiskeyjack. Are they looking past the crippled god? did Laseen plan everything with Kellanved and Dancer before they became Ammanas and Cotillion?

This passage doesn't just suggest what happens in MOI in my opinion, as looking back now it seems SE gave us a lot of tidbits of what is to come without knowing it at the time

I totally agree. The context of the passage seems to indicate that the long term thoughts go even beyond dealing with the Crippled God, and perhaps hint at an underlying motivations of the Malazan Empire. In my view 'short term' thinking would refer to the immediate and near-termstrategic necessities of the military as well as political and social goals. The span of the whole series - from the Malazan point of view - is only around a decade (a little more if you include the prologue of GoTM), so it would stand to reason that these long term plans extend beyond any of the particular events in the MBOTF. Reigning in the ascendants and ensuring that mortals have more capacity to defend their territory and enforce the rule of law is an obvious motivation, and one that explains why Rake and Brood opposed the Malazan's on Genabackis. This is also revealed in MoI. What constitutes freedom for an ascendant is very different from what constitutes freedom for an individual within an Empire governed by the rule of law. This is why there is a necessary tension between the political order of mortal humans and that of ascendants. It is analogous to the distinction between the tribal order of Seven Cities and the rule of law imposed by the Empire; however, the metaphysical situation complicates the matter immensely. Essentially, freedom for mortal humans, when considered in the context of the Empire, requires the rule of law in order to ensure that the tribal structure does not threaten the capacity for safety and varying forms of expression. The Malazan's, however, walk a very fine line internally, since they often persecute detractors. So freedom of expression does not really exist; however, it we need to realize that this could be one of the longer term goals of the Empire - recognizing that for now, maintaining a united front in the expansionist campaigns requires hard lined measures internally. When considered in the light of ascendancy, the threat to mortal humans is immense, and the threat to law, order, civil society cannot be overstated. This is what leads me to believe that releasing the Crippled God is a near-term component of the Empire's larger plan to raise mortal humans to the point where they can challenge the ascendants, and when the need arises bloody their noses enough to get them to piss off and leave humanity alone.

[ShadowRaven]

I agree on the long term plan going past Crippled God and the initial events of Pannion Domin, etc. SE might have originally written that section just to include those events but the series progressed, and I believe we will see some long-term plan emerge in tCG.

Additionally, it is revealed in either NoK or RotCG that Tayschren can look into the future using Warrens or something along those lines, not just by reading the Deck of Dragons. I think the passage says that it is a rare skill, but who's to say other leaders of the empire (Laseen, Kellanved, etc.) did not possess a similar skill, thus making them able to create a plan for the distant future.

In relation to a long term plan, here's an additional crazy theory (might be sligtly off topic): Was it ever confirmed or denied whether Laseen was a mage herself? I mean are we really sure she is dead? Additionally, are we sure Tavore is Tavore, not just Laseen in disguise? Ok, Fid or QB probably would have sniffer her out if that were the case, but some skilled illusions (plus taking into account Tavore and Laseen both dress and act somewhat similarly) could enable them to pull it off. This could explain why she is hesitant in trying to contact Paran.

[Trull's son]

Quick Bill does a good job at speculating on the motivations of the Malazan Empire. Though it seems to me that the passage offered, when considering the entire series, hints or may explain circumstances that were forced on malazans and others in the novel.

The passage would imply that the Bridgeburners, or more specifically one arm's host, were supposed to deal with the Crippled God. I mean to say the CG on kolanse, not Genebakis. I will speculate that their foray with the CG in MOI was to please Brood and company, rather than opposing the Crippled god as a priority. Not saying that they wouldn't have eventually had to kill off the Pannion anyway because they were a plague, but keeping civilization in existence should take precedence. The fact that they were pretty well beat at Pale would suggest the need for another malazan army to back the Crippled God in Kolanse. Enter Tavor and the Bonehunters.

Something else that we can point out based on the infodump is that the confrontation of the kellanved and dancer by laseen, as seen in night of knives, could in fact have been planned to get "players on the inside" as mentioned, However this seems unlikely. Laseen tried to kill them, and i believe it was because while they planned to ultimately overthrow the ascendants, here we have two of the ringleaders looking to make themselves gods. It isn't a stretch to say this may be seen as betrayal on the Empress' part. Though at this particular point in the series (MOI), it would seem that the army is somehow working with or alongside Shadowthrone. the Empress and Kellanved may no longer be working against one another, which would raise questions on why they were planning her downfall in GotM. Maybe she had to die? Like the Bonehunters to the Bridgeburners, maybe laseen will be replaced to complete their overall goal aswell (by someone more competent than Mallik Rel one hopes). I could imply an entire empire replacing them, but that's a stretch (coughletheriicough).

Time to brood on Brood. The malazans DO NOT want Brood using his kill all Hammer. Dujek and Whiskeyjack sound as though it is an option that Brood would not mind resorting too, though the existence of their planet would indicate that Brood does not in fact resort to such extreme measures on a regular basis. So we can conclude that the crippled god is threatening enough to make that a viable option. it is more than a possibility that Brood will oppose the CG by using his hammer while "invoking Burn's name". Well lets hope there is someone to at least keep him tied up in Darujhistan during convergence in Kolanse. You know, someone who was told that he would need to kill a god in Darujhistan. Told by someone in league with the Bonehunters, or at least working with the Malazan Empire in a roundabout fashion.

Keep in mind that this is speculation based on the passage offered by Quick Bill in context of the entire series. It may be overreaching to guess at conclusions or motivations when the passage may in fact be less than what I have made it out to be, but this would only make sense for those of us that are as far as DoD. Even then, does it actually make sense?

This post has been edited by Trull's son: 01 September 2010 - 04:07 PM

[Theotendo]

It may not be as wild a theory as it sounds. The split between Tavore and Laseen seemed...out of character. Viewing Laseen as a ruler (within the context of what is shown of her up until RotCG), she just doesn't seem paranoid or incompetent enough to view Tavore as a threat to the throne. So why the split? It resulted in the Bonehunters heading straight for Kaminsod in Kolanse (barring a detour in Letheras). And once again, it is made to appear as if the empire's goals are not long term.
I support the general theory in...uh...theory...