[amphibian]

Luke Skywalker, on 19 August 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

That is absolute conjecture as to why she could know what she knows, and how she knows what she knows. Further, it stretches believability to have Ganoes to be the whisper in her ear this entire time, when we have other possible explanations (her study of Kel and Dancer, knowledge of T'amber). It stretches further believabliity that this communication goes absolutely undetected with a high-mage of unknown power and someone with the relatively unknown powers of Bottle doing the spying.

Are they communicating through their minds? Are they both masters of Mockra?

The question of how Tavore knows what she knows has become the most interesting question of the later books to me. I wouldn't be surprised to see a POV from Tavore in The Crippled God. (At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes largely unacknowledged...)

Her re-playing K'azz D'Avore's battle has to be replicated in how she's gone about her campaigns and dealing with the gods, but it only works if she has an information source beyond what the Bonehunters can give her. You can't analyze very well the probabilities of a battle with unknown sides, unknown numbers and unknown intentions. That's why the Bonehunters were wounded so grievously by the K'Chain - zero forewarning.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 19 August 2010 - 05:11 AM

[GingerBreadMan]

Old Hunch Arbat, on 19 August 2010 - 03:43 AM, said:

GingerBreadMan, on 18 August 2010 - 01:47 PM, said:

We have also seen that Ganoes and Tavore have not communicated much, they are not acting in concert...they just have similar morals and mindsets that have resulted in somewhat similar actions

IMO we have absolutely no idea how much brother and sister communicate - and if they do, how they do it. Tavore's seemingly constant awareness about what's going on globally, and her withdrawal from her officers and aide de camp at nights provides for lots of unmonitored time during which she could be talking with Ganoes.

OHA

Page 124 in DoD when Tavore is speaking with Bry's.

'Fiddler spoke of the Errant's...rival. The Master of the Deck of Dragons.' She hesitated, and then added, 'That man is my brother, Ganoes Paran.'
'Ah. I see'
She shook her head but would not look up, intent on her hands.'I doubt that. We may share blood, but in so far as I know, we are not allies. Not....close. There are old issues between us. Matters that cannot be salved, not by deed, not by word'
'Sometimes,'Brys ventured,'when nothing can be shared but regret, then regret must serve as the place to begin. Reconciliation does not demand that one side surrender to the other. The simple, mutual recognition that mistakes were made is in itself a closing of the divide.'
She managed a half smile.'Brys Beddict, your words, however wise, presume communication between the parties involved. Alas, this has not been the case.'

Seems to imply pretty strongly that the two are NOT speaking to one another

[GingerBreadMan]

amphibian, on 19 August 2010 - 05:03 AM, said:

Luke Skywalker, on 19 August 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

That is absolute conjecture as to why she could know what she knows, and how she knows what she knows. Further, it stretches believability to have Ganoes to be the whisper in her ear this entire time, when we have other possible explanations (her study of Kel and Dancer, knowledge of T'amber). It stretches further believabliity that this communication goes absolutely undetected with a high-mage of unknown power and someone with the relatively unknown powers of Bottle doing the spying.

Are they communicating through their minds? Are they both masters of Mockra?

The question of how Tavore knows what she knows has become the most interesting question of the later books. I wouldn't be surprised to see a POV from Tavore in The Crippled God. (At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes largely unacknowledged...)

Her re-playing K'azz D'Avore's battle has to be replicated in how she's gone about her campaigns and dealing with the gods, but it only works if she has an information source beyond what the Bonehunters can give her. You can't analyze very well the probabilities of a battle with unknown sides, unknown numbers and unknown intentions. That's why the Bonehunters were wounded so grievously by the K'Chain - zero forewarning.

Agreed about Tavore's source, was it just T'Amber and the Eres'al giving her some plans and advance warning/advice?

If so, why does she claim to be independent of the Gods?

[amphibian]

GingerBreadMan, on 19 August 2010 - 05:06 AM, said:

Agreed about Tavore's source, was it just T'Amber and the Eres'al giving her some plans and advance warning/advice?

If so, why does she claim to be independent of the Gods?

We know that she planned and worked with T'Amber/Eres'al for a very long time (possibly boinked her too, but hey, we'll probably never know).

But the Eres'al isn't a god per se, she's not in communication with Ganoes/Master of the Deck and she's been very independent of Shadowthrone and Cotillon, despite their strong linkages to the Malazan Empire. We haven't seen inside the tent much, but we have seen her deal with the Errant, Brys and a couple of other big time people - cool and always from a distance.

I believe she truly is working for the better interests of the Empire and not for any god or ascendant.

[HoosierDaddy]

The fact that the Eres'al inhabited T'amber and can travel through time is an easy answer as to how she knows what is going on after T'amber's death.

[GingerBreadMan]

amphibian, on 19 August 2010 - 05:15 AM, said:

GingerBreadMan, on 19 August 2010 - 05:06 AM, said:

Agreed about Tavore's source, was it just T'Amber and the Eres'al giving her some plans and advance warning/advice?

If so, why does she claim to be independent of the Gods?

We know that she planned and worked with T'Amber/Eres'al for a very long time (possibly boinked her too, but hey, we'll probably never know).

But the Eres'al isn't a god per se, she's not in communication with Ganoes/Master of the Deck and she's been very independent of Shadowthrone and Cotillon, despite their strong linkages to the Malazan Empire. We haven't seen inside the tent much, but we have seen her deal with the Errant, Brys and a couple of other big time people - cool and always from a distance.

I believe she truly is working for the better interests of the Empire and not for any god or ascendant.

A bit hard to say she isn't a Goddess..

She is the God/Spirit of the Eres and worshiped by the broken tribe of people who were blessed by the Edur Women...she also can defy Mael, travel through time etc..

I don't think she is serving the Empire, she left it behind.

She appears to be doing what she thinks is important, morally just etc..

But is she doing it alone or is she being nudged by Shadowthrone/Cotillion, why did the Eres'al take interest in her and how in the world does she plan to stop Kilmandoros from sucking the power out of the CG?

[Silk]

Tavore is the Pre-eminent scholar of Kel/Dancer and Dassem, not just campaigns but motivations and stuff ... (was mentioned in the book) perhaps in being this she has found some of what Kel and Dancer found in their journeys and managed to put two and two together? After all the possibility is there that Kel and Dancer may have been at the last chaining in Mortal guise and they would have had to follow a path to get there

[amphibian]

Silk, on 19 August 2010 - 11:06 AM, said:

Tavore is the Pre-eminent scholar of Kel/Dancer and Dassem, not just campaigns but motivations and stuff ... (was mentioned in the book) perhaps in being this she has found some of what Kel and Dancer found in their journeys and managed to put two and two together? After all the possibility is there that Kel and Dancer may have been at the last chaining in Mortal guise and they would have had to follow a path to get there

This is indeed important, but how much writing or contacts with the world did the pair have after Night of Knives - or after ascension? Probably nil or close to that. Hard for a non-contemporary to go digging up how the plans changed once they saw the true scale of the Azath/gods' games if there's no record of such.

Her source has to be somewhat magical in nature. This is a total digression from Mael/Jhistal, but gods, it's interesting.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 19 August 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

...Her source has to be somewhat magical in nature. This is a total digression from Mael/Jhistal, but gods, it's interesting.

Actually, if you consider the brief exchange between Bugg and Tavore early in DoD, Mael COULD be her source (or A source). I'm doubtful, but he's playing a complicated game and Elder Gods are complicated creatures.

[GingerBreadMan]

Abyss, on 19 August 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

amphibian, on 19 August 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

...Her source has to be somewhat magical in nature. This is a total digression from Mael/Jhistal, but gods, it's interesting.

Actually, if you consider the brief exchange between Bugg and Tavore early in DoD, Mael COULD be her source (or A source). I'm doubtful, but he's playing a complicated game and Elder Gods are complicated creatures.

Possible but she didn't seem "aware" he was an ally and she doesn't seem the type to accept unsolicited advice from a strange source.

Her being the pre-eminent scholar on Kellanved/Dancer IS important but even their friends don't seem to understand them.

Daseem, Laseen, Tayschrenn, Dujek, Crust brothers etc.. haven't shown any ability to predict the duo's moves...

Quick Ben doesn't understand them either and he is a very smart and very knowledgeable mage WITH personal experience meeting and dealing with the two of them...

Hell even Cotillion doesn't seem to fully understand what is going on inside Shadowthrone's head

[champ]

Abyss, on 19 August 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

amphibian, on 19 August 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

...Her source has to be somewhat magical in nature. This is a total digression from Mael/Jhistal, but gods, it's interesting.

Actually, if you consider the brief exchange between Bugg and Tavore early in DoD, Mael COULD be her source (or A source). I'm doubtful, but he's playing a complicated game and Elder Gods are complicated creatures.

and what does that dang dagger do that he gave her!

[GingerBreadMan]

champooon, on 19 August 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

Abyss, on 19 August 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

amphibian, on 19 August 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

...Her source has to be somewhat magical in nature. This is a total digression from Mael/Jhistal, but gods, it's interesting.

Actually, if you consider the brief exchange between Bugg and Tavore early in DoD, Mael COULD be her source (or A source). I'm doubtful, but he's playing a complicated game and Elder Gods are complicated creatures.

and what does that dang dagger do that he gave her!

My guess?

She cuts herself and he uses that blood to manifest wherever she is...him being an ally of sorts and an Elder God.

[worry]

I think you guys have convincingly cleared up that her source of info is not Paran, not Mael, and probably not Eres'al, though they all seem to be, in spirit, allies. I have a hunch it's someone we don't hear too much from. Perhaps one of the ladies, like Ardata, Mockra (if truly sentient), or Queen of Dreams.

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 19 August 2010 - 09:39 PM, said:

I think you guys have convincingly cleared up that her source of info is ...Perhaps ...Mockra (if truly sentient), ...

Now that's an interesting theory - the actual warrens getting involved...

- Abyss, ...bets Tennes is hard to match...

[D'rek]

Considering T'amber was a priestess of the Queen of Dreams, the pre-eminent god of divination, and then supercharged with the power of the Eres'al while still being in posession of her own self, T'amber could have divined a vast number of events that would occur after the point at which she died and have passed it all on to Tavore before the end of tBH...

[Roldom]

when did it say T'amber was a priestess off the queen of dreams? i think i missed that bit

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Either in DG or HoC, it's mentioned that Tavore found T'amber in a temple of the QoD.

Also, I may be wrong on this but I recall something about her being, like, a prostitute priestess or something similar.

[worry]

Ah, so she's the Queen of those kinds of Dreams! I always wondered.

[GingerBreadMan]

T'Amber being connected to the QoDs makes sense, the little we have seen of her suggests she plays a similar manipulative game to Shadowthrone/Cotillion